S. 8472 vs Empire

[Patrick Ogaard]

Species 8472 might really have better chances against the Galactic Empire than the Federation would have.

Assuming that the wonderful, gloppy realm of Fluidic Space impinges upon the home galaxy of the GE, bioships should stand a better chance against Imperial capital ships than Federation capital ships attempting to tackle their GE counterparts.

Bioships have:

1. a large matter/antimatter system (canon, per Chakotay's tricorder analysis)

2. a warp drive (canon, per a bioship pursuing Voyager and an escorting cube at warp)

3. a beam weapon capable of firing at warp (also canon per the bioship pursuing and firing on Voyager and an escorting cube at warp)

4. shields capable of withstanding at least one Borg torpedo without noticeably affecting the bioship's performance

Combined, this actually provides the S8472 ships with the ability to conduct the infamous "warp strafe" maneuver that Federation ships never seem to be able to do in canon.

I still believe that my hypothesis regarding the nature of the S8472 beam weapon is correct: the beam is essentially a form of particle or plasma beam that acts as a conventional beam weapon but also serves as a form of waveguide for an electromagnetic pulse that disrupts the target ship's control and containment systems. A hit that penetrates the shields propagates through the target's EPS system, if there is one, and also blows out conduits, controls and crew in the affected areas.

The above hypothesis is supported both by the effects of the beam weapons on cubes, the Borg planet blown up in a visual, and the beam's effect on Voyager.

1. Borg Cubes:
Borg cubes appear to use a decentralized warp system as a backup for their transwarp system, and both types of systems can be powered by matter/antimatter reactions (as otherwise Voyager could not have attempted to use a transwarp module), and the Borg are idiots. Therefore, in operation and especially in combat, most Borg are physically connected to the control systems of the ship as well as its power systems, since that is the way the Borg synthesize their nutrients. Therefore, any bioship strike with even marginal shield penetration would severely damage a Borg cube: drones get fried in companionways or blown out of their overloading alcoves, EPS conduits and command lines blow out, and the pulse then follows the EPS conduits to blow out the source of the plasma (which is bad if it's a matter/antimatter reaction chamber), and the disruptive bolt progating under the shields of the cube would likely blow out the local shield grid. The excessive and obtuse networking of the cube and its crew coupled with a decentralized and therefore individually less well safeguarded warp power system makes the cube incredibly vulnerable to the beam weapon of S8472.

2. Borg planets:
The S8472 cluster of bioships around the central projection vessel fires a destructive blast at the planet. At minimum, the beam should be an order of magnitude more powerful than the individual beams, which would explain the general damage to the planet's crust. The more powerful beam also acts as a much more powerful waveguide for a suitably powerful energy pulse which then races through the assorted networked grids of the planet. Since the Borg use warp and transwarp systems in their ships, and are not likely to use alternative power generation in their planetary holdings, the planet is likely pockmarked with large matter/antimatter power stations or similarly destructive equivalents. The Borg need to synthesize their nutrients through direct power input, and also need to maintain constant high bandwidth subspace chatter between all members of the local collective, as well as maintaining subspace contact with nearby cubes and planets, so their power needs should be prodigious. Again, the nature of the Borg makes the S8472 weapon more effective, and the need for pulse propagation through the grid and the need to overcome safeguards explains the delay in the actual destruction of the planet.

3. Against Voyager, S8472 bioship beam strikes resulted in shield breaches and multiple systems shorting out. The warp power system of Voyager is centralized and therefore more easily protected against overload pulses, no personnel were physically connected to power lines, and the gel packs would have provided choke points that the pulse could not pass.


Assuming the beam weapon to be plasma based would explain its ability to propagate at warp. I believe the TOS original Romulan plasma weapon propagated at warp when fired at the Enterprise. Regardless of the veracity of that recollection, a controlled warp plasma reaction can (at least in ST) produce warp speed travel. If fed directly by the bioship's warp power system while the bioship is at warp, the plasma beam might be so configured that its plasma stream achieves short-lived propagation at warp speed.

In Star Wars tems, the bioship weapon appears to function as a combination of a light turbolaser and a light ion cannon. Several bioships in concert might be able to take on a corvette or similar lightweight capital ship, but it would likely require several hundred to take on even one ISD.

The empire still has an indisputable, overwhelming advantage in sheer military might, communications and travel speeds, but S8472 might potentially be a reasonable enemy for the GE, not immediately folding like a house of cards. It does assume that the S8472 manage to stiffen at least one of their backbones, of course. They would have to be prepared to take massive losses, and assuming the GE manages to enter fluidic space the gig is entirely up.

Now... anyone have updated reasonable estimates of bioship firepower and resistance?

[Darth Wong]

The Borg seem to be happy that the nanoprobes could be used in mining their space so I asdsume it can be done.

In other words, you haven't a shred of evidence apart from Borg optimism. Concession accepted.

The doctor produced enough for a few torps in a couple of days - Im sure a borg ship could at least match huim in production.

Yes, this would give them the ability to produce a few torpedoes that can score kills with direct hits or near-misses; enough to kill one enemy soldier each. Oooohhh.

You have produced ONE interpretation of ONE piece of evidence to prove they are cowards which I have dealt with

You have "dealt" with it by claiming that they were weak enough to be unable to deal with any situation other than total invulnerability to enemy weapons. You ignore this weakness when boastfully claiming that they will devastate Imperial space, ranging far and wide across Imperial territory and blowing up planets at will (a tactic which would be unaffected by nanoprobes because of the hit-and-run nature and long ranges involved).

GAT admitted over at space battles that the incident doesnt prove they are cowards due to the fact that pulling out was the correct thing to do.

I am not responsible for somebody else's debate. My point is that you claim they are uber-powerful when it suits you, and incapable of dealing with an enemy whose weapons can hurt them when it suits you.

My argument is not self-contradictory they are not weak nor cowards.

I have explained why it is self-contradictory. It is not a valid rebuttal to simply deny it without explaining why not.

You say these are the only two reasons that could explain their withdrawl when in fact actual tactics is another (and must reasonable) explanation.

"Tactics"? Withdraw because you have no plan for the eventuality that the enemy will finally develop weapons that can actually hurt you with a direct hit or close-proximity blast?

The Borg have millions of ships to 1000s of planets whereas the empire has 1000's of ships to millions of planets thus even if we compare the two he Borg have the advantage in a defensive war.

Nonsense. The Borg mustered only 3 cubes to defend one of their planets, when your numbers would imply thousands of cubes per planet. And if we count ships besides capships, then the Empire has tens of millions of ships.

8472 could destroy many Imp planets simply because they can strike when and where they like without th imps having a chance at stopping them in they arent already in that system.

Then why couldn't they do this to the Borg?

Even if they never came back this does not prove they are cowards because theres no evidence to suggest the Borg have the nanoprobes meaning that 8472 would be able to stomp on the Borg again without loses meaning that they must have simply decided after meeting Janeway that this galaxy wasnt a threat after all.

They decided that Voyager wasn't hostile, so they decided that the Borg weren't hostile either? Now you're getting desperate, because that's stupid and you know it. You have no evidence that S8472 can stomp all over the Borg if they return. Worse yet, if they can stomp all over them, then their only reason for staying away is cowardice.

Here's a simple explanation which happens to fit the facts without requiring your acrobatic contortions: S8472 can only open up portals in one particular area of space, which happens to be in Borg territory. Once they attacked and destroyed the inhabited planets in that region of space, the only way to attack other planets would be to fly there at warp speed. But the Borg can intercept them this way, so they can do only limited damage.

If the Borg have learned that they have no particle shielding and have finally developed weapons to take advantage of this tactical weakness, or if the Borg have acquired the nanoprobes, then they can intercept and destroy any S8472 raiders before they reach any planets outside the breach area. This creates a stalemate: the Borg can't enter S8472 space because they will be destroyed en route to any S8472 targets, but S8472 can't attack Borg planets because their ships will be destroyed en route.

This makes far more sense than your silly notion that S8472 are a peace-loving species (which annihilates whole planets and has a political ideology of racial "purity", like the Nazis), whose war in "Scorpion" was purely defensive and withdrew to resume their peace-loving ways once Voyager convinced them that the Federation was not a threat.

[Patrick Ogaard]

The limited overlap between the ST galaxy and fluidic space is, if my memory serves, confirmed by a series of canon comments from the ST:Voyager twin episode Unimatrix Zero. The dreamtime boyfriend of Seven of Nine turns out to be stationed on a ship on the other side of Borg space, along the border to fluidic space.

[Master of Ossus]

SirNitram

2.That wasnt a planetary shield however because landing on he planet was possible.

3.In the days of the OR did many systems have defense fleets?
So before the Naboo-Gungan alliance the most important planet in that area was unshielded which means there where 500 or so planets in the area just waiting to be destroyed.
Where did the info on the Naboo planetary shield come from so I can look into more.

2. There may not have been a planetary shield on Naboo. There were theatre shields that were not up at the time of either landing. If there was a planetary shield, then the Naboo had not raised it because they did not think the TF would invade. I think this analysis is dubious because it appears that Naboo was not in the least bit prepared for a conflict and because planetary shields are expansive, even for small planets in SW.

3. In the days of the OR MOST powerful, important, industrialized planets had at least a small defense fleet. In fact, Naboo had a starfighter corps. Planets like Corellia, Coruscant, and Kuat had far more massive fleets.

I don't know what your source is where you claim that Naboo is the capital of a sector. The senator comes from Naboo, but in California neither one of our Senators grew up near Sacramento. It is even conceivable that the capital of the sector is actually located on Coruscant, but that is also dubious. I do not think that Naboo is the capital world of the sector, because everyone in TPM was commenting about how out-of-the-way it was, and that it was unusual for the TF to be blockading Naboo instead of some other planet.

BTW, the doctor can produce nanoprobes in relatively small quantities, but those quantities would not have strained even Voyager's resources. To mine space, one would have to spend VAST quantities of resources because you are essentially trying to saturate an area with nanoprobes. Such an endeavor would even stretch Borg resources. I'm not even sure that the Empire could do something like that quickly and easily.

Patrick, ST weapons can usually fire at warp, they have just never been seen to fire at a target NOT moving at warp, from a ship that is at warp. Also, Bioships do not appear to be able to take on the GE, even in massive quantities. "Light turbolasers" and "Light ion cannons" can only overwhelm even small capital ship shields in massive quantities. Even assuming similar yields, only huge numbers of bioships (between five and ten thousand) would be able to overwhelm a single ISD. If the ISD ever gets worried, it can just run away whenever it feels like it, having already wiped out large quantities of bioships. BTW, whenever such enormous numbers disparities have been seen in RL, the side that needs more numbers to get equivalent firepower always runs into enormous logistical, communications, and coordination problems. The threat of bioships to SW capital ships in minimal.

[TheDarkling]

Borg optimism - The Borg knowing the nature of their nanoprobes would have no clue what they could survive, yes of course this makes so much sense.

You keep saying one enemy soldier to make it seem less instead of saying one enemy ship - nice tactic.

They were threatened by an enemy who had a weapon that could be used in an area affact manner and that cuold eneter their space in numbers which would put them at a 100 to 1 disadvantage - why the hell shouldnt they be worried only an idiot wouldnt be when faced with comiplete destruction.

No you have explained why you want it to be self-contradictory but since its my arguement im making and not the version of my argument you are putting forward it matters not.

Lets put it this way - 10 Imps ships so up in orbit of Hoth - "we have them now hehe" suddenly 9 of the ships get vaped by a weapon never seen before.
Do you do
A)Pull back to empire HQ and study readings of this new weapon.
B)Call in 20 ships to be wiped out.
C)Attack yourself hoping 1 ship will win where 9 failed before.

We are told repeatedly by Seven, Chakotay and Janeway that the Borg have millions of ships.

Of course seven hasnt got a clue about the Borgs strengths.

Once again the Borg can attack 8472 at home so hit and run wont work in a war against the Borg.

No they decided that the Borg werent worth the effort since they posed no threat (no evidence the Borg have the nanoprobes thus even if they were cowards you portray them as they would have started the war up again).

Proof they can only open up portals in particular areas - They do it all over Borg space and another Quadrant (Beta I believe Ref Unimatrix zero).
10,000 LY out of Borg space an 8472 on Voy attempts to open one up to Fluidic space but of course this member of 8472 was just being optimistic.

Evidence they have no particle shielding the ship you say was destroyed by ramming survived and pops up again in Prey.

I never said they were peace loving - The borg attacked them and they saw the Borg as a threat, they came to the ST galaxy and found out the Borg werent and so decided that there was no point in wiping them out (if they did stop).

[Master of Ossus]

Darkling, Mike didn't change your argument at all. What he said about your argument (and how it's self-contradictory) is essentially true. You appear to be saying that they are enormously powerful at times and weak as a kitten at others, changing positions in order to better defend your opinion.

Hit and run tactics are effective in a defensive war. I have no idea where you got the idea that they were not. The idea is you surrender territory in order to damage your enemy's ability to hold that territory, later. Look at what the Finns did to the Russians during the infamous "Winter War." In fact, it is almost impossible to use hit-and-run tactics in an offensive war, because you will be unable to overwhelm your enemy's tactical advantage (from being on the defensive) without a concerted effort.

[TheDarkling]

It is possible to use hit and run tactics when you can get behind enemy lines without being spotted.

8472 could have gone about destroying every single planet and it wouldnt have helped them because the Borg at the same time were doing the same to 8472's realm with much greater numbers.

They arent pocessed of ungodly power (they arent the GE afterall) but the Borg had the ability to wipe them out at hope meaning that pressing the war wasnt a good idea without gathering intel - the imps dont have this meaning a war against the imps wouldnt force a retreat.

If they were cowards then once they realised the Borg didnt have the weapon they would have started the war again.

If they were weak they would have done the same thing since the borg werent a threat.

Thus not starting the war again doesnt aid either argument.

Now the intial retreat.

When an enemy brings a super weapon (which tilts ship top ship odds against you) to the table and outnumbers you 100 to 1 rethinking the war or at least pulling into a defensive procedure is the correct thing to do.

[Darth Wong]

Borg optimism - The Borg knowing the nature of their nanoprobes would have no clue what they could survive, yes of course this makes so much sense.

You can drip as much sarcasm as you like, but yes. Borg optimism. Because they're too stupid to think clearly. This is the same idiot group that thought they could clear out a 5 light-year wide region of space with a handful of nanoprobes and a really big bomb. If you don't want to accept Borg stupidity, that's your problem.

You keep saying one enemy soldier to make it seem less instead of saying one enemy ship - nice tactic.

What's wrong with it? There is just one soldier in each ship! These are fighters, not capships. They cannot fire off-axis, they carry just one pilot ... what more do you need? It is your attempt to liken them to an ISD which is clearly deceptive, not my characterization of them as one-man ships containing just one soldier.

They were threatened by an enemy who had a weapon that could be used in an area affact manner

Pure speculation. The only "area" we saw affected was a few hundred metres around the blast. At that range, any sufficiently violent detonation should do the job, particularly given the fact that they have no protection against physical impactors (hence the nanoprobes' ability to enter their skin).

and that cuold eneter their space in numbers which would put them at a 100 to 1 disadvantage

Since a cube and an S8472 bioship would probably be at tactical parity, that's no disadvantage. Not if they have as many bioships as you think, and they can wipe out whole planets by popping out of fluidic space anywhere they want to. A war like that would last a few weeks, and cause only minimal casualties to the S8472 side.

why the hell shouldnt they be worried only an idiot wouldnt be when faced with comiplete destruction.

If your over-optimistic claims about S8472 strength are valid, then it is the Borg who would be faced with complete destruction.

No you have explained why you want it to be self-contradictory but since its my arguement im making and not the version of my argument you are putting forward it matters not.

Of course, since your argument elevates speculation above observation. Excuse me for trying to remove the deceptive elements and pare it down to what we actually know.

Lets put it this way - 10 Imps ships so up in orbit of Hoth - "we have them now hehe" suddenly 9 of the ships get vaped by a weapon never seen before.
Do you do
A)Pull back to empire HQ and study readings of this new weapon.
B)Call in 20 ships to be wiped out.
C)Attack yourself hoping 1 ship will win where 9 failed before.

10 one-man ships (read: TIE fighters) get vaped by a direct hit or near-miss from an enemy torp? Does it even matter whether it uses nanoprobes or some other trick? Big deal. That's exactly what you should expect of an enemy weapon, and if there's no reason why you should be stunned by it.

We are told repeatedly by Seven, Chakotay and Janeway that the Borg have millions of ships.

When?

Of course seven hasnt got a clue about the Borgs strengths.

Correct. She hasn't got a clue. She's an idiot, and she thinks the Borg is "perfection". Or didn't you notice?

Once again the Borg can attack 8472 at home so hit and run wont work in a war against the Borg.

Once again, a bioship can easily destroy a cube if it hits the cube first. The fact that they have achieved tactical parity between a one-man S8472 ship and a 129,000-man Borg cube is hardly proof of Borg superiority. No, if they have planet-killing power and range as you describe, they can exterminate the Borg with little effort and little risk.

No they decided that the Borg werent worth the effort since they posed no threat (no evidence the Borg have the nanoprobes thus even if they were cowards you portray them as they would have started the war up again).

Riiight. They're a peace-loving species which only fights for defense, and all of that racial purity information that Kes extracted telepathically was just a big ruse designed to cover up their peace-loving ways.

Proof they can only open up portals in particular areas - They do it all over Borg space and another Quadrant (Beta I believe Ref Unimatrix zero).

Please provide dialogue indicating that they are opening up breaches in multiple quadrants.

10,000 LY out of Borg space an 8472 on Voy attempts to open one up to Fluidic space but of course this member of 8472 was just being optimistic.

And did it succeed? No.

Evidence they have no particle shielding the ship you say was destroyed by ramming survived and pops up again in Prey.

Are you always this dense? How the fuck do the nanoprobes get inside its skin if it can deflect incoming particles? What makes you think the ship that was destroyed in "Scorpion" was the same one as the ship in "Prey?"

I never said they were peace loving - The borg attacked them and they saw the Borg as a threat, they came to the ST galaxy and found out the Borg werent and so decided that there was no point in wiping them out (if they did stop).

Riiight. And all of that "The Weak Must Perish" and racial purity stuff that Kes extracted telepathically was just a big ruse, to cover up their true ideology, which is "live and let live as long as it doesn't threaten us". Sorry, but the latter ideology (which you seem to be promoting as the preferred interpretation) is peace-loving. The fact that you refuse to put two and two together doesn't change that.

[Master of Ossus]

If you get behind enemy lines then you are fighting a defensive battle! The enemy MUST then either surrender their territory or attempt to attack you in order to remove you from it. Meanwhile, it is only possible to use hit-and-run against small groups of enemy troops (supply trains, retiring enemy forces, reinforcements that are coming up), and then it is only effective to attack them either in vastly superior force, or when they are on the move!

[TheDarkling]

Borgs - Idiots and have no clue about the weapons they use or how much they can do.

Im sorry I just cant accept that the Borg dont understand what their technology is capable of.

These are their equivalent of cap ships not Tie fighters - this is their top of the range stuff as far as we can see.
One person - they may not have that many people but this is their top of the line rank and file ship.

They can survive physical impact I will explain this below.

Yeah tactical parity - considering voyager was able to take out 4 bioships in one fight with normal nano-torps this means voyager is way ahead of bioships once it has nanoprobes and since they are working with the Borg there may be more of these ships on hand etc.

100 to 1 - thats a HUGE adavantage to the Borg.

We dont know much we certainly dont know they are cowards or weak as you claim.

DONT read Tie fighters read Cap ships(thats what they are to them this is the best ship they have its their version of a cap ship).
No this weapon was far beyond what you have ever seen from the enemy before.

The Chakotay is already in this thread either take the time to read it or please stop wasting my time.

Now this stinks of desperation because she was brainwashed by the Borg it means she has no knowledge about Borg size and strength - thats almost a leap of logic connected two things that are unrealted but im sure you will say it shows she its objective when it comes to the Borg but to infer stupidity from an opinion due to brainwashing well I think I have said enough on that point.

A bioship takes at least 2 shots to destroy a cube thus the cube ccould probably get off a shot first and destroy the bioships (which often swarm).

Once again Wong comes up with this peace loving stuff out of no where - they say the weak must die they also so that this is because they have entered their realm and threaten it - once realm entering is no longer a problem why continue the attack.
Why did they stop oh Wong? it wasnt because they are cowards since they could still take the Borg with ease once they realise that the Borg dont have the weapon.

I dont have the episode but its from Unimatrix Zero someone quoted it in the thread somewhere.

No it fainted before hand however then 7 was asked to do it and she refused - why refuse if it wouldnt work.
Then Janeway tries to get her other trained minions to open one up but they are attacked before hand.
So due to your logic 8472 nor seven nor voyagers crew know enough to figure out the entry portal wouldnt work - faulty reasoning methinks.

The collsion didnt kill the ship - when Tuvok makes mental contact with the ship we see it chasing Voyager in the exact same scene as the one where you claim the bioship is destroyed.
Thus they are the same ship - prehaps it isnt a shield but some soirt of membrane that can take large amounts of physical damage - but they can still take physical damage.

The "purity of their realm" the entry of non bioships may taint the liquid medium of Fluidic space thus what they were saying wasnt racial but environmental.
The "weak must perish" was extreme but this guy was a soldier that was enraged by the Borg tainting his realm his dislike is understandable - we also cant apply this to all 8472 because the fake Boothby seemed like a nice chap.

[TheDarkling]

When Tuvok makes mental contact with the 8472 we see the ship that should read.

[Patrick Ogaard]

SirNitram

2.That wasnt a planetary shield however because landing on he planet was possible.

3.In the days of the OR did many systems have defense fleets?
So before the Naboo-Gungan alliance the most important planet in that area was unshielded which means there where 500 or so planets in the area just waiting to be destroyed.
Where did the info on the Naboo planetary shield come from so I can look into more.

2. There may not have been a planetary shield on Naboo. There were theatre shields that were not up at the time of either landing. If there was a planetary shield, then the Naboo had not raised it because they did not think the TF would invade. I think this analysis is dubious because it appears that Naboo was not in the least bit prepared for a conflict and because planetary shields are expansive, even for small planets in SW.

3. In the days of the OR MOST powerful, important, industrialized planets had at least a small defense fleet. In fact, Naboo had a starfighter corps. Planets like Corellia, Coruscant, and Kuat had far more massive fleets.

I don't know what your source is where you claim that Naboo is the capital of a sector. The senator comes from Naboo, but in California neither one of our Senators grew up near Sacramento. It is even conceivable that the capital of the sector is actually located on Coruscant, but that is also dubious. I do not think that Naboo is the capital world of the sector, because everyone in TPM was commenting about how out-of-the-way it was, and that it was unusual for the TF to be blockading Naboo instead of some other planet.

BTW, the doctor can produce nanoprobes in relatively small quantities, but those quantities would not have strained even Voyager's resources. To mine space, one would have to spend VAST quantities of resources because you are essentially trying to saturate an area with nanoprobes. Such an endeavor would even stretch Borg resources. I'm not even sure that the Empire could do something like that quickly and easily.

Patrick, ST weapons can usually fire at warp, they have just never been seen to fire at a target NOT moving at warp, from a ship that is at warp. Also, Bioships do not appear to be able to take on the GE, even in massive quantities. "Light turbolasers" and "Light ion cannons" can only overwhelm even small capital ship shields in massive quantities. Even assuming similar yields, only huge numbers of bioships (between five and ten thousand) would be able to overwhelm a single ISD. If the ISD ever gets worried, it can just run away whenever it feels like it, having already wiped out large quantities of bioships. BTW, whenever such enormous numbers disparities have been seen in RL, the side that needs more numbers to get equivalent firepower always runs into enormous logistical, communications, and coordination problems. The threat of bioships to SW capital ships in minimal.

Nice post! And good points.

In the AOTC edition of Star Wars: Incredible Cross Sections there is the following quote regarding the Naboo Cruiser:

"Even in this sturdy vessel, however, a thorough home constituency tour could last a lifetime in Padme's lightly populated Chommell Sector, which comprises 36 full-member worlds, more than 40,000 settled dependencies, and 300,000,000 barren stars. With more than 1,000 sectors, the galaxy's deceptively fragile harmony depends on efficient division of authority within the multi-tiered government, and upon the wisdom of its roving officials and legislators."

Were one to conceptually blow up the United States into a galaxy-spanning political entity, Padame's home sector, of which Naboo is apparently one of the 36 full-member worlds, would likely appear on the map as a single county in Maine. If each sector of the galaxy sends one senator and a stand-in, or even two senators (of which one is junior), then the Senate would have over 1,000 members, at most a shade over 2,000. A parliamentary body of that size would be at the outer limit of being able to actually make decisions.

On the matter of planetary shields, it seems they are effectively similar in concept to city walls before the age of gunpowder weapons. As long as the central government keeps the peace, what's the point in having such a white elephant in the budget? When the central government becomes ineffective, though, everyone is going to start building a planetary shield or city wall for self-protection. Historically, those sorts of protective measures have always been a sign of unsettled times. The Clone Wars would count as unsettled times, and likely made many manufacturers of planetary defense shields rich.


On the subject of bioships, I've heard of ST directed energy weapons supposedly being able to fire at warp, but can't remember any instances. Would you have a few episodes as examples? (Honest question, and I'll look at my tape collection if it's a TNG episode. Voyager doesn't count, as I've chunked most of those episodes as a waste of good VHS tape.) In "Scorpion" even the Borg resorted to torpedoes at warp instead of their equally ineffective beam weapons when attacking the pursuing bioship.

Regarding bioship firepower, my basic assumption is that the bioships will lose out in any direct contest of strength, leading to an inevitable long-term loss against the GE. The Empire's greater strategic mobility makes such a loss even more likely. I will attempt to address your points, however, albeit not elegantly.

Assuming that bioships manage to engage an ISD on patrol, perhaps by using an area of overlap between fluid and GE space, how many bioships do you believe would be necessary to have a chance of successfully disabling the ISD or forcing it to flee the scene?

The bioships did not display any particular agility in canon visuals, and their speeds appeared comparable to those of other conventional vessels at impulse and warp, so that the point defense turbolasers of an ISD should be able to target them at least as easily as the Millenium Falcon: the bioships appear larger and rather less agile.

A bioship did manage to absorb at least one direct hit from a Borg torpedo, albeit with completely unknown yield. I would assume, however dangerously, that the torpedo should have had at least the effectiveness of a conventional photon torpedo (albeit without explosive effect), so that the bioship can weather at least one attack equivalent to 24 megatons of directed energy without noticeable reduction in its effectiveness. Regardless, I would reasonably assume a one-shot-one-kill standard for ISD point defense turbolasers used against bioships and factor out the heavy turbolasers completely.

So let's say we have three initial waves of 200 bioships each, followed by a wave of 20 9-ship clusters (the assumption being that S8472 actually has all that materiel), each wave 10 seconds apart. The bioships only attempt to attack one flank of the ISD, limiting the ISD to a broadside of approximately 60 point defense turbolasers, each of which should be able to get off at least five shots per 10 seconds assuming a sufficiently target rich environment. Granting the bioships at least a modicum of mobility, let's assume 50% accuracy by the Imperial gunners.

The first wave loses 150 ships in the first 10 seconds. The second wave comes in, and a further 150 bioships disappear, leaving 100 ships in play at 20 seconds elapsed time. The third wave appears and a further 150 ships disappear, leaving 150 ships in play at 30 seconds elapsed time. The fourth wave appears, and I would assume that the ISD gunners wipe out at least half of the 9-ship clusters before they can form up, plus a further 60 of the regular bioships wiped out at 40 seconds elapsed time, when the remaining 10 clusters fire. At 50 seconds elapsed time, either the fire of the bioships has disabled the ISD, or all of the bioships are dead.

How much of a weight of fire do you think the bioships could realistically put on the ISD?

How much of a difference might one initial successful "warp strafe" manage to make for the regular bioships?

My main problem here is that I can not quite visualize how much firepower the beam weapon of the bioships would have. It is likely to be hugely unimpressive when compared to that of even an ISD's light turbolaser.

[Master of Ossus]

Darkling, your line about how fighters are 8472's top of the line ships and therefore analogous to capital ships is flawed. If the crusaders lost six of ten Knights, would they panic suddenly and run away because those Knights are their top-of-the-line units and therefor analogous to capital ships? Should the Luftwaffe have panicked if the Poles shot down six of their Me-109's over a particularly well defended area? Individuals can be far more easily written off than can vast numbers of people. Your analogy is flawed.

[TheDarkling]

No the your understanding of it is flawed.

I said that the bioships are top of the line - thats it.

I never said it was ok to panic over the loss of 6 top of the line ships.

Wong was trying to make them equivalent to tie fighters which they are not they are 8472s top of the line ship i.e (their main ship which is the empires main ship? ISD's because they carry out all military duties and not because they are the most numerous).

Would the knights by off if suddenly a tank came over the hill or 5 men with machine guns? you can bet they wuold at least try to learn more instead of charging to their deaths.

[Master of Ossus]

So, do we compromise and say that bioships are the equivalent of corvettes? Darkling, the bioships are equivalent to starfighters if S8472 is worried about individuals. If they are more worried about the ship, then the bioship is equivalent to a SW light freighter (SW has millions of light freighters; according to your statements, S8472 has millions of bioships).

The Knights would probably run away from a tank or five men with machine guns after they decided that they could not win. The bioships that we saw really made no effort to determine exactly how powerful their enemies were. They just kind of ran away. If you are faced with a weapon you know nothing about, and capturing a working model is outside of your abilities, you try and determine what it is capable of while putting yourself at a minimum of risk. Running away is not a good way to do that. You want to retreat to a relatively safe distance and determine how powerful the enemy's ship is. S8472 should have remained in the combat area, summoning reinforcements at a safe distance, and attempting to determine what the abilities of the weapon were. Once that is done, S8472 should have decided to eliminate the ship carrying it or to retreat permanently. That is not what we saw them doing. We saw them run off with their tails between their legs having made no attempt to figure out what the limits were for this new weapon.

[SirNitram]

Well, given your analogy, Darkling, the Species wouldn't even engage the Empire once they saw it's power, because they would realize how badly outgunned they were and retreat.

[Master of Ossus]

Patrick, off the top of my head, the best example of warp beam-weapon engagement I can think of is an episode whose name I cannot even recall. When Sisko and co. were on the captured Jem'Hadar ship and en route to the Ketracel White facility, one of Sisko's friends engaged them and forced them out of warp in a Reliant-class vessel. During the engagement, pursuit, and ultimate counter-attack by REAL Jem'Hadar, both sides used beam weapons at warp-speed, though never at targets that were not moving at warp.

[TheDarkling]

Master of Ossus: They did try and figure out what the weapon was - they switched to intel gathering for that purpose, they didnt run away the first time the weapon was used it was the second area effect torp used in normal space that forced them to back off.

As you wish we say say they are corvettes but really thats not relevant the point is they are what passes for a good ship in 8472 land - what they compare to in SW is another matter.
They may only have 1000's of ships its unknown exactly how many they have.

SirNitram:I will try and make it more clear to you.

On oneside we have 10 ISDs (with a warp drive instead of hyperdrive) defending 100 worlds.
On the other we have an enemy with hyperdrive with a ship that can kill an enemy planet in one shot.

So you see the ability to choose the positon to strike gives one side a huge advantage since the 10 ISDs cant be everywhere - even if they could destroy the PKer with one shot they are still going to lose alot of planets.

The empire has 40,000 planets in one backward unimportant sector alone (the 40,000 may refer to something else but it seems to point to 40,000 worlds.)
They have 25,000 ish ISD's - you see they cant defend against an enemy that can strike at any time anywhere.

[SirNitram]

When did ISD's become less powerful than Bioships? I was unaware you had new calcs.

[Darth Wong]

Im sorry I just cant accept that the Borg dont understand what their technology is capable of.

Yet you have admitted that when 7 of 9's "5 light year" idea came up. Make up your mind. You are treating meaningless, desperate speculation as hard evidence, which it is not.

These are their equivalent of cap ships not Tie fighters - this is their top of the range stuff as far as we can see.

So their top of the range stuff is a one-man fighter. That doesn't change the fact that they can't handle casualties, does it?

Yeah tactical parity - considering voyager was able to take out 4 bioships in one fight with normal nano-torps this means voyager is way ahead of bioships once it has nanoprobes and since they are working with the Borg there may be more of these ships on hand etc.

OK, now you're starting to emulate Darkstar. Those 4 bioships were clustered together, you dumb fuck! How many fucking times do I have to explain this? Stop ignoring the fucking point! I have explained repeatedly that the weapon is only effective when detonated in close proximity to the target, just like a modern grenade. Obviously, tactical stupidity on the part of S8472 can magnify the losses associated with one detonation if they bunch up, but that doesn't mean the Federation has an unstoppable weapon.

The Chakotay is already in this thread either take the time to read it or please stop wasting my time.

Yes, I saw it. When challenged to produce a quote, you cited Chakotay in Scorpion: "It could take months to get across Borg territory we'ed be facing 1000's of systems ... Millions of vessels," and you admitted it might be "hyperbole". Later, this became "in several cases their fleet is said to number in the millions." And now it's become "We are told repeatedly by Seven, Chakotay and Janeway that the Borg have millions of ships." Nice magic Morphin' quote there, Darkling. First it's hyperbole from Chakotay, then it's several cases, and now it's "repeated" statements from 7 of 9, Chakotay, and Janeway! Is this some kind of special "organic evidence"? It grows over time?

But wait; it gets better! You see, Chakotay's little quote is obviously hyperbole, and you have been cleverly citing incomplete evidence to play that down. When the quote is taken in context, Chakotay is trying to convince Janeway not to go through with her plan. He is trying to make it sound as bad as possible. Does this not cry out for a "hyperbole" interpretation? And what of Janeway's quote earlier in the same episode, during a formal briefing rather than an argument in her ready room? She said "We don't know exactly how many vessels are out there, but their space appears to be vast. It includes thousands of solar systems, all Borg." And we never see more than 15 cubes in one place, or 3 cubes in orbit around a planet, even though your numbers predict thousands of ships per system, so that any major interdiction force would have to be composed of hundreds or thousand of ships, not 15 (as seen in Scorpion 1).

Now this stinks of desperation because she was brainwashed by the Borg it means she has no knowledge about Borg size and strength

The only desperation is yours. You are taking a piece of dialogue from Chakotay (which is obviously hyperbole) and attributing it to both Janeway and 7 of 9 ("repeatedly") without a shred of evidence, and ignoring the fact that 7 of 9's dialogue has been frequently nonsensical anyway.

A bioship takes at least 2 shots to destroy a cube thus the cube ccould probably get off a shot first and destroy the bioships (which often swarm).

Are you saying that S8472 must close to extreme close range, because they can't hit a 3km wide cube with their beam weapon without approaching so closely that a Borg cube (which missed the 600m long E-D at a range of a few km in BOBW) is guaranteed to hit with a relatively slow-moving missile? Ah, I see. This is your "S8472 is weak" personality. I await the return of your other personality when the subject of unstoppable S8472 marauders against the Empire comes up again.

Once again Wong comes up with this peace loving stuff out of no where

Stop bullshitting. You keep saying that they only want to defend their realm, and that they have no other motive for war. That is the definition of a peace-loving society. You just don't like having the absurdity of your argument pointed out in plain English.

they say the weak must die they also so that this is because they have entered their realm and threaten it - once realm entering is no longer a problem why continue the attack.

Ask them. They were continuing to attack the Borg long after they'd made their point. The Borg were already fighting a defensive war before Voyager showed up, and losing badly. Why continue the attack? Could it be that I'm right, and that they attacked because they are not the peace-loving defenders of their realm that you make them out to be?

And why not resume their assault afterwards? Are you saying that the Borg lost the ability to enter S8472 space, so "realm entering was no longer a problem"? Don't be ridiculous. Are we supposed to believe that they stopped their war only because they saw that the Borg were no longer a threat, even though that was obvious long before Voyager came up with those torps? Was it a coincidence that they re-evaluated their genocidal war after suffering this minor loss which should have caused them to pause only briefly before regrouping and continuing their withering assault?

Why did they stop oh Wong? it wasnt because they are cowards since they could still take the Borg with ease once they realise that the Borg dont have the weapon.

Unless they are simply mortified that they're not invulnerable, and the realization of their own mortality terrified them to the point that they won't take the risk that the Borg have either acquired the technology, developed it on their own now that they have the basic idea, or developed some other way of hurting them thanks to their lack of particle shielding.

I dont have the episode but its from Unimatrix Zero someone quoted it in the thread somewhere.

Yes, and as I recall, it's extremely vague, so you need to do better than that.

No it fainted before hand however then 7 was asked to do it and she refused - why refuse if it wouldnt work.

What if she doesn't know whether it will work, and she refuses because she won't take the chance? You rely almost entirely on speculation regarding intent and motivation; hardly objective data.

Then Janeway tries to get her other trained minions to open one up but they are attacked before hand. So due to your logic 8472 nor seven nor voyagers crew know enough to figure out the entry portal wouldnt work - faulty reasoning methinks.

How is that faulty reasoning? It's never been done, so we don't know that it can be done! Are you saying that they have such extensive experience with transdimensional portals into fluidic space after just one experience (in the hot zone) that they have already achieved complete understanding of all the limitations and mechanisms, and that Janeway's order to do it is proof that it would work? Don't be ridiculous. As I said before, I am merely trying to strip away the unsupported speculation from your arguments.

The collsion didnt kill the ship - when Tuvok makes mental contact with the ship we see it chasing Voyager in the exact same scene as the one where you claim the bioship is destroyed. Thus they are the same ship - prehaps it isnt a shield but some soirt of membrane that can take large amounts of physical damage - but they can still take physical damage.

No. The ship was visibly destroyed in "Scorpion", and the screenplay concurs, describing: "The Borg cube (optical) collides with the bio-ship and the two explode in a devastating effect". Besides, there are plenty of easy rationalizations for the telepathic picture. Since S8472 is a telepathic species, and the pilot might have been thinking about another S8472 pilot's encounter with Voyager when Tuvok probed him (realistically, the producers were just being cheap and re-using footage, but we can rationalize it within the constraints of the episode anyway).

In any case, your logic is awful. Let's just ignore the visuals of "Scorpion" (as you so desperately want us to do) and presume that everything happened as per the modified version of the episode that you are using: the ship was heavily damaged when it struck a Borg cube but it was not destroyed. How do you get from that to particle shields? Can you say "pathetic leap in logic"? My car was rear-ended by a truck last year. It suffered damage, but it was not destroyed. Does this mean that it has particle shielding, or some sort of membrane to protect it? Of course not! Face it; the nanoprobes' effectiveness means that S8472 has no particle shielding. It is only a matter of time before the Borg find a way to exploit that, even with their pathetically low collective intelligence.

The "purity of their realm" the entry of non bioships may taint the liquid medium of Fluidic space thus what they were saying wasnt racial but environmental.

Yeah, sure. All environmentalists try to commit genocide. You do realize that S8472 was systematically exterminating the Borg and making no effort whatsoever to negotiate, right? How desperate do you have to be in order to claim good intentions on the part of S8472 in order for your argument to hold water?

The "weak must perish" was extreme but this guy was a soldier that was enraged by the Borg tainting his realm his dislike is understandable - we also cant apply this to all 8472 because the fake Boothby seemed like a nice chap.

People have a motive to be nice when they're afraid. Even when they're genocidal aliens.

[TheDarkling]

They arent less powerful (as far as I know) but my point is if the ISDs arent there to fight them it matters not.

Where did I lead you to believe otherwise?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

If they need to fire quick because the first won't kill and the Borg will kill them imediatly, their strength is somewhat, lower.

[Master of Ossus]

[sarcasm] Oh, but, Mike, you have ignored the fact that Species 8472 was just misunderstood. They were merely trying to ethnically cleanse the galaxy, but they were going to do it peacefully, so we should assume that they were only interested in a defensive war. [sarcasm off]

This species appears to have many different personalities, Darkling. Depending on how the debate's going, they can be strong or weak, peaceful or warlike, overly-cautious or reckless in their courage, and either stupid or smart. That's more personalities than Jim Carey!

[SirNitram]

They arent less powerful (as far as I know) but my point is if the ISDs arent there to fight them it matters not.

Where did I lead you to believe otherwise?

Bioships are pathetically weak, and rely on Warp drive. The ISD's will always outrun them.

Besides, ISD's are not needed. Naboo Starships have the shield power for this, if not the weapons.

[Darth Wong]

Just a quick recap for those who are just tuning in:

Darkling claims that S8472 was not cowardly to run upon encountering a weapon that can kill their one-man ships with close-proximity detonations, even though all modern soldiers and pilots fight with the knowledge that their enemies have such weapons, and the possibility of death from enemy weapons has been a constant throughout the entire history of warfare.

When confronted with the obvious weakness in this position, he tried to claim that they had a legitimate and logical reason to run because this weapon gave the Borg tactical and strategic superiority, despite S8472's supposed ability to pop out of fluidic space and destroy planets at will with no warning.

When confronted with the fact that this obviously implies S8472 is much weaker than he has previously claimed it to be, he suddenly comes up with a new theory: S8472 is holding back! They're now pacifists, who only fight to defend their "realm", and all of that attempted genocide/"the weak must perish" stuff was just a big mistake.

I can't wait to see what he tries to pull next.