S. 8472 vs Empire

[Master of Ossus]

The borg could seed every planets orbit with nanoprobes - as soon as 8472 drops out of their space they die.
The brog could have sent every ship they had into 8472 space and just wiped them out using the Nanoprobes - thats a threat.

Do you have any idea how many nanoprobes and resources such a strategy would consume? Realistically, the Borg must defend several thousand systems in such a manner, and realistically nanoprobes cannot instantly kill a bio-ship. Also, you are assuming that the lifespan of a nanoprobe is unlimited, and that this tactic would not be affected by other factors (such as debris, comets, other planets, passing ships).

[SirNitram]

SirNitram: Yes im sure your tactical brillance would cause you to use a frontal attack on someone when you are completely out matched due to injury instead of using something other than a full frontal attack.

I'm just pointing out you're using a truly pathetic answer. If they were as brave as you want them to be, it would run up to the Hunter and chop it's damn head off.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: Ok then lets assume that for some very odd reason the Borg cant use area affect weapons (im not sure why but...)

They still could transport nanoprobes or use the area effect mine they proposed.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: No that would make them as stupid as you (want them to be).

Im not saying tey are the bravest race ever im just saying you cant infer cowardice from their retreat.

[Master of Ossus]

You have no evidence that the planetary destructions are only small attacks - the 8 planets destroyed in that attack wave may have been only minor holdings.

You are also forgeting that the feds had a torp capable of area affect - the Borg could do the same meaning avoiding the Torp wouldnt help that much.

If, as you claim, the 8 planets were minor holdings than this would further jeopardize your moronic strategy by forcing the use of more nanoprobes and resources. The Borg have lots of power and resources, but their supplies are not infinite. You are talking about SATURATING space with nanoprobes, to the point where any bioship-sized target would have to come into contact with one or more of them. You are also trying to get me to believe that the Borg can do this over an ENORMOUS volume of space. This is unrealistic.

Finally, your claim that the Federation has area-affect weapons is okay, but remember that if something explodes any distance away from its target, the target is not hit by anywhere near the amount of energy it would have had to absorb had the weapon actually hit the ship. This might be an unviable tactic because the effective yield of weapons goes down exponentially as the distance between the detonation of a weapon and its target rises.

[SirNitram]

SirNitram: Ok then lets assume that for some very odd reason the Borg cant use area affect weapons (im not sure why but...)

They still could transport nanoprobes or use the area effect mine they proposed.

Tranporting nanoprobes. Sort of like when they assimilate ships....
....
....
....

Oh, wait, they don't do that. My mistake.

The area effect mine they proposed is pure, unadultered bullshit. You ignore the fact that many nanoprobes would fail to hit planets and stars at that range, and that any large detonation would vaporize many of hte probes, and finally that it would take years to fill the space.

[TheDarkling]

They can transport nanoprobes into space - theres nothing preventing it - te shields may prevent nanoprobes from attacking SF ships but 8472 dont seem to have shields like the SF ships do.

Yes that uber weapon was stupid I agree but I was thinking about using a smaller version in way to defend planets.

[SirNitram]

They can transport nanoprobes into space - theres nothing preventing it - te shields may prevent nanoprobes from attacking SF ships but 8472 dont seem to have shields like the SF ships do.

Yes that uber weapon was stupid I agree but I was thinking about using a smaller version in way to defend planets.

They never did it, so I see no reason to assume that they will. This is the Borg: They have no creativity at all.

The 5MT device spoken of it a joke, and is unlikely to be used in smaller versions. I'm suspecting the line was added to give those people who knew SI units and a smattering of common sense a giggle.

[Master of Ossus]

They can transport nanoprobes into space - theres nothing preventing it - te shields may prevent nanoprobes from attacking SF ships but 8472 dont seem to have shields like the SF ships do.

Yes that uber weapon was stupid I agree but I was thinking about using a smaller version in way to defend planets.

Darkling, you are still talking about seeding space with nanoprobes. That is stupid. Not only has it never been seen, but it is also PROHIBITIVELY resource consuming. The Borg just do not have those kinds of resources to spend on preventative measures to protect them against one species, particularly since they are still hoping to expand their holdings, later.

[TheDarkling]

The 5MT device spoken of it a joke, and is unlikely to be used in smaller versions. I'm suspecting the line was added to give those people who knew SI units and a smattering of common sense a giggle.

I wouldnt bet on that - you under estimate the power of stupidity ST writers have.

In all likely hood the Borg would have used Fed torps just like Voy did since Voy was giving them the tech.

This is way off track however - the point is there isnt enough (any) evidence to point to 8472 being cowards.

The main points of the 8472 Vs Wars debate of the following.

1.The power of the PK beam
2.Can it get past planetary shields.
3.How many planets have shields.
4.How much damage can a bioship take.
5.How much can one hand out.

So anyone got any answers? from what I have seen only Core worlds and the odd world outside the core have planetary shields.

[TheDarkling]

Master of Ossus: The borg disagree with you.

[Master of Ossus]

Master of Ossus: The borg disagree with you.

Oh, really? On what grounds? After I brought up a number of points, the best you can do is say "Oh yeah?" to one of them? You were doing very well in this debate, but you have finally lost because it was a losing battle from the start.

I also like how you tried to take the heat off by getting us "back on track" when you were cornered in an indefensible position.

[SirNitram]

1. Power of PK Beam: approx. 1e28J over 8 seconds, DET. It should be noted this is within(Although barely) an Acclamator-transports shield strength. If you think my calculation is wrong, try your own.

2. Will it penetrate planetary shields: Not with that strength it won't.

3. The vast majority, including insignifigant worlds like Naboo.

4. Very little, kinetic energy wise. A single TL bolt has 'gigatons' of kinetic energy behind it. Ref. Slave Ship.

5. Low gigaton range, IE, not enough.

[Patrick Ogaard]

The Bynars from ST:TNG might be a conceptual precursor:
All Bynars are linked with and dependent on their world's central computer. Now imagine a monumental glitch that gives absolute priority to optimization and takes control of the individual minds of the Bynars linked to the central computer. In just a few short years the Bynars could transform themselves into rapacious raiders, ruthlessly modifying their own bodies to achieve whatever arbitrary optimization goal their new collective consciousness has set.

Goddamn, why didn't I think of that? The Bynars could be an example of how the Federation might eventually become the Borg.

Well, we Americans have to be good for something, right?



Ignore the following if averse to long posts:

Applying some thought to the potential danger posed by the Bynars, the Bynars are probably more dangerous to the Federation than the Borg. They could probably take over the Federation within six months to a year, with no effective resistance possible.

The Bynars know Federation, especially Starfleet, software architecture inside and out. They are supposed to have extensively reprogrammed (and "optimized") Starfleet computers, and presumably many computer systems throughout the Federation. Programmers are known to leave back doors into programs, even if only to be able to debug the program.

Starfleet and the Federation as a whole are totally dependent on their highly networked computer systems, to an almost suicidal extent. What if someone has backdoor access to those systems?

Suddenly, subtly, everything goes wrong. The emergency medical holograms of the experimental multi-vector attack ships (however many there may be) find themselves reprogrammed to carry out "behavioral adjustments" on their crews with the support of the ship's computers. The standard anesthetizing gas is released to subdue crews, and ships in danger of being held by their crews vent atmosphere to quell resistance.

Transporters, which canon has shown to be able to perform changes at the genetic level, "adjust" people sent through them.

As-yet unaffected ships that attempt to intervene find their shields dropping and their computers rewriting their programming as the affected ships and starbases use the appropriate access codes.

All long-range subspace communications are blocked or edited by the computers they are routed through. Locally, the programs running the takeover have complete control of communicators; combine this with access to all official and personal logs of the persons on the planet or starship, voiceprints and all other biometric data, and there is no way to know if the person you're talking to and getting orders or reports from is really your old war buddy or a computer-generated simulation.

Replicators produce foodstuffs laced with powerful psychoactive drugs to make populations compliant.

Holodecks, holosuites and projection units for EMH units and equivalent units provide combatants with limited areas of control, and anyone caught inside one when the takeover is initiated is toast. Holodecks are capable in canon of limited replication of real matter (such as snow), and in conjunction with control of transporter networks it is simple enough to download "adjusted" EMH copies into the holodecks/suites to implant appropriate control units in subjects.

Even if the civilian population were to attempt resistance, complete computer network control of power grids, transporters, communications and basic utilities would make resistance futile. Unadjusted individuals not yet subdued by psychoactive substances are beamed into hologram-run "adjustment centers" as quickly as properly adjusted patients are released. Adjusted persons proceed to take physical control of planetary operations, with adjustment of medical personnel providing additional processing capacity for the population.

With a complete communications blockade, hidden behind a false facade of bogus message traffic, a world could be adjusted to become part of the Bynar collective in a matter of, at most, a few days. After that, a node linked directly to the Bynar central computer is installed and all fully genetically and cybernetically adjusted persons are made part of the Bynar collective.

The adjustment process would commence simultaneously on all available worlds and starships, effectively preventing coordinated resistance. If the process is not too disruptive to general activities, and non-Federation witnesses are quickly dealt with by adjusted starships, no one outside Federation space may catch on for weeks, even months.

The Federation has access to cloning technology capable of producing an adult human(oid) from a cell sample (as Dr. Bashir did in canon), with the process simple enough that a criminal could clone himself with a bit of gear and a few days or weeks alone in a private stateroom. The Federation also has huge industrial reserves devoted to the support of a largely indolent population. Optimal use of these potential resources of personnel and materiel should allow the new Bynar Federation to field ground armies numbering in the billions, and fleets of capital ships numbering in the tens of thousands.

The pre-Nemesis Romulans would likely be overrun handily, the Cardassians are too weak to resist effectively after their drubbing in the Dominion War, and the Klingons and Ferengi would be relatively easily taken over through trojan horse gifts. Even if the takeover of the Klingons were not immediately successful, the disruption of Klingon effectiveness should be sufficient to allow the Klingon Empire to be taken militarily in fairly short order.

Only the Dominion and the Borg are likely to resist effectively, but the Dominion is likely to fall in the end, and the Borg are idiots.

The Dominion would find itself faced with a civilization as profligate with clones and ships as the Dominion itself, resistant to Changeling infiltration, and willing to strip whole sectors of resources ,including unnecessary populations to be used as cannon fodder, in order to win the war.

[TheDarkling]

No I am just getting bored replying to this insane warsie bias.

The Borg thought they could come up with enough nanoprobes to blanket huge areas of space but lets say you are right and they couldnt - it still makes little difference because the Borg would take the weapon on the offensive and just wipe 8472 out there.

You have no evidence that 8472 are cowards which has been the main defence so far i.e. "we will win cause they will run away".

I have shown that isnt a good defence so im saying you have to accept that a battle will take place and the points I outlined above will reveal the answers to who is likely to win the battle.

[Master of Ossus]

Sorry, Patrick, but this seems like another "what if" scenario. This should be its own little thread, so why don't you start one? This could be a good debate on its own, but I don't really see how this is connected to S8472.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram:
2.How much does it take to defeat a planetary shield - I remeber something about 500 Proton torps can open up a hole in a planetary shield
so how whats a proton torp rated at?.

3.Naboo wasnt insignifigant it was the capital of its sector or whatever - 400 worlds or so (I may be off on this).
Also if they had a planetary shield why didnt they use it to stop the TF from invading.

4.Well that ship survived ramming the Borg cube but TL would probably be enough to take them down.

[SirNitram]

SirNitram:
2.How much does it take to defeat a planetary shield - I remeber something about 500 Proton torps can open up a hole in a planetary shield
so how whats a proton torp rated at?.

3.Naboo wasnt insignifigant it was the capital of its sector or whatever - 400 worlds or so (I may be off on this).
Also if they had a planetary shield why didnt they use it to stop the TF from invading.

4.Well that ship survived ramming the Borg cube but TL would probably be enough to take them down.

2. Planetary shields can completely resist the firepower of Death Squadron. This is Canon. The Death Squadron had at least 5 ISD's, each holding PT-range broadsides. The Executor is not mentioned cause it just drives the numbers even higher.

3. Naboo was insignifigant enough not to have any fleet defending it, and for it to only be a peacemeal protest. Did you watch TPM? The planetary shield was placed after TPM, as part of the Naboo-Gungan alliance. Ref. EP2ICS.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Sorry, Patrick, but this seems like another "what if" scenario. This should be its own little thread, so why don't you start one? This could be a good debate on its own, but I don't really see how this is connected to S8472.

Quite right. I may toss it out in a separate thread, as it is quite OT.

To produce a comment that is on topic, S8472 does in fact appear to have standard or near-standard Star Trek shields. The rather hull-hugging shields can be seen reacting to the one Borg torpedo hit in Scorpion when the bioship tried to take out Voyager and was itself rammed by the Borg cube.

My assumption would therefore be that the Borg nanoprobes themselves have an autonomous ability to penetrate shields by slipping through them. It would also explain how Starfleet's folks came up with the concept of the transphasic torpedo, applying shield-slipping techniques to a larger projectile.

A reasonably effective method of employing such nanoprobes in a defensive battle would be the following: produce modified versions of the standard Borg spheres, and equip those spheres with obscene numbers of Borg torpedo launchers, plus torpedoes loaded with nanoprobes. Deploy a dozen or so spheres around each major world, with hardcoded orders to immediately react to any bioship incursion with a massive salvo of nanoprobe torpedoes.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram

2.That wasnt a planetary shield however because landing on he planet was possible.

3.In the days of the OR did many systems have defense fleets?
So before the Naboo-Gungan alliance the most important planet in that area was unshielded which means there where 500 or so planets in the area just waiting to be destroyed.
Where did the info on the Naboo planetary shield come from so I can look into more.

[Mr Bean]

So before the Naboo-Gungan alliance the most important planet in that area was unshielded which means there where 500 or so planets in the area just waiting to be destroyed.

Plantary shields we just not that Common before the Empire, That much we know just based on observation


BEFORE Empire
Rich and very important planets have Plantary Shields


DURING and AFTER Empire
Everyone and thier yaahoo cousin have a plantary shield

Prehaps it was simple cost effectivness? Maybe there was some big, AH HA! During The years before ANH where the technology got dirt cheap to make?

Its a common enough thing in our world, Look at GPS, when they first where created and how they are now today

[SirNitram]

SirNitram

2.That wasnt a planetary shield however because landing on he planet was possible.

3.In the days of the OR did many systems have defense fleets?
So before the Naboo-Gungan alliance the most important planet in that area was unshielded which means there where 500 or so planets in the area just waiting to be destroyed.
Where did the info on the Naboo planetary shield come from so I can look into more.

2. Yes, it was a theatre shield. A planetary shield will have at least that much power.

3. Most systems did. As mentioned in TPM, Naboo is part of a distant sector. The Naboo shield info comes from the Episode II ICS, as I stated in my last post.

500 planets waiting to be destroyed... Unless they have an Acclamator, or even a Naboo Starship(Heeee, the shield stats on those are just sick. Sick sick sick.)

[TheDarkling]

Mr Bean: I dont doubt that he clone wars made planetary shields more numerous but do all planets have them?
The YV didnt seem bothered about planetary shields until they got near the inner rim/core and decided to grow some big Dovin basals.
"dovin basals of the size needed to remove the shields that guard Coruscant and other worlds of the core".

Seems to indicate that outside hte core planetary shields arent much of a problem - either because they are much weaker on other worlds or arent there.

In fact the first 5 books in NJO make no mention of having to defeat a planetary shield as the Vnog attack.

The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology states that planetary shields "consume so much energy that it is impractical to keep them powered all the time" "some shields take nearly half an hour to activate"(p106)"take several minutes to activate and are impractical to maintain at all times...planets often rely on ion cannons and similar weapons to provide cover until the shield can be raised"(p98)

Thus even if the shields are numerous and powerful enough they wont be raised in time.

[Darth Wong]

No I am just getting bored replying to this insane warsie bias.

Don't start this Darkstar-style "you guys are all biased" shit.

The Borg thought they could come up with enough nanoprobes to blanket huge areas of space but lets say you are right and they couldnt - it still makes little difference because the Borg would take the weapon on the offensive and just wipe 8472 out there.

You are assuming all manner of weapon characteristics for which there is no evidence. From the canon shows, we know only that the weapon is effective when detonated in extreme close-proximity to a bioship. Anything else (read: any one of your silly proposed tactics) is pure conjecture, relying on assumptions such as:

• The nanoprobes, originally designed to function only within the bloodstream of a living organism, can function without a power source in the vacuum of space for long periods of time.
• The nanoprobes can be safely transported. I remind you that transportation puts strain on objects and organisms, and can set off volatiles (see my TNG database)
• The nanoprobes, which are so delicate that Borg drones must physically approach their targets and inject them rather than simply shooting them into the air, will suddenly become impervious to any defensive tactics such as energetic bursts.
• The nanoprobes can be produced in infinite numbers, hence you don't have to bother generating any numbers for silly tactics such as filling all of space around a planet out to tens of thousands of kilometres, or filling all of fluidic space.

You have no evidence that 8472 are cowards which has been the main defence so far i.e. "we will win cause they will run away".

We have produced plenty of evidence that they are cowards. Your only defense has been to claim that they are weak, so that it was smart to run away in terror and never return in force again (what happened to the planet-killers during the Second Coming mentioned in Unimatrix Zero, hmmmm?), from a weapon that (at best) merely creates tactical parity.

I have shown that isnt a good defence so im saying you have to accept that a battle will take place and the points I outlined above will reveal the answers to who is likely to win the battle.

No, you are refusing to accept that your argument is self-contradictory. If they are as powerful as you say, they should be able to crush the Borg once they retool in light of the new weapon, by simply blowing away planets with hit-and-run attacks. This was not happening. If they are weak but as brave as you say, they shouldn't have been running away.

You are using a schizophrenic, self-contradictory argument in which you fluidly move from one thesis (S8472 is weak enough to be legitimately afraid of a weapon that can 10 single-pilot ships if they cluster in its path) to another (S8472 is so powerful that they can fire planet-killer blasts at will, pop out of fluidic space anywhere they want, and generally wreak havoc regardless of Imperial weaponry and defenses).

The problem is simple: the Empire is vastly superior to the Borg. Their ability to destroy a bioship is easily greater than that of a Borg cube even when equipped with those silly nanoprobe torpedoes. Their defenses are superior to those of Borg planets. Their resources are far greater. Their individual combat initiative is greater. Their reaction speed is better. Therefore, if the Borg can hold off S8472 and suffer no planetary losses with nanoprobe torpedoes (and it's not even established that they have them), the Empire can easily do the same.

You are arguing that S8472 can stomp the Empire, which is vastly superior to the Borg (with a perfectly straight face, no less) and then you turn around and say that the balance of power is overturned because the Borg have a weapon that can kill a bioship with a direct hit or near-miss. Do you even begin to realize that you're contradicting yourself here?

Either they came back, in which case we know from Unimatrix Zero that their power is nowhere near as great as surmised, or they never came back, in which case they are cowards. Pick one, and stop playing this game of shifting between mutually contradictory theories in order to suit whatever argument you happen to be dealing with.

[TheDarkling]

The Borg seem to be happy that the nanoprobes could be used in mining their space so I asdsume it can be done.
The doctor produced enough for a few torps in a couple of days - Im sure a borg ship could at least match huim in production.

You have produced ONE interpretation of ONE piece of evidence to prove they are cowards which I have dealt with - GAT admitted over at space battles that the incident doesnt prove they are cowards due to the fact that pulling out was the correct thing to do.

They then gather intelligence and decide that Voy isnt a threat.

Yes the other battle may have been a one off incident in which case it seems they just decided not to both with the Borg anymore (The Borg dont seem to have the nanoprobes.)

My argument is not self-contradictory they are not weak nor cowards.

You say these are the only two reasons that could explain their withdrawl when in fact actual tactics is another (and must reasonable) explanation.

The Borg have millions of ships to 1000s of planets whereas the empire has 1000's of ships to millions of planets thus even if we compare the two he Borg have the advantage in a defensive war.

8472 could destroy many Imp planets simply because they can strike when and where they like without th imps having a chance at stopping them in they arent already in that system.

Even if they never came back this does not prove they are cowards because theres no evidence to suggest the Borg have the nanoprobes meaning that 8472 would be able to stomp on the Borg again without loses meaning that they must have simply decided after meeting Janeway that this galaxy wasnt a threat after all.