One Ep Fed Tech Equipped Federation Vs The Empire

[TheDarkling]

Mr Bean: First of all we are told they have a comletely different of physical laws - they have some partical that cant exist out here but can in their realm.

As for a set of Freq being a Domain - concession accepted , since Geordi describes them as a number of different realities that isnt his reference but since the WEG is talking about comms its probably their meaning.

Thus they scan all the subspace that can carry comms - as I have said.

I also dont have to prove sensors and comms are the same because I have proven that measures that stop either dont stop Subtrans thus they can be different it doesnt matter it simply shopws that both asre different than comms.

[Mr Bean]

First of all we are told they have a comletely different of physical laws - they have some partical that cant exist out here but can in their realm.

Explain, prove, quote
Vague statments get us no-where

since Geordi describes them as a number of different realities that isnt his reference but since the WEG is talking about comms its probably their meaning.

Ah now you speak for Mr La Fordge?
(edit# uggg toook me tens mins to track down what he said)

EXACT QUOTE

subspace has an infinate number of domains its like a huge honey comb with an infinate number of cells" - Geordi.

With your Conncession on the Domain meaing a set of Frequancys and Geordi's Statment who you yourself have called an "Expert" on subspace in the past I can neatly wrap this up.
1. Domains are simpley sets of Frequancys
2. Geordi states Subspace has a *infinte(nothing is infinte if you can measure it)
3. SW Ships can Scan all of the *Infinite Subspace in under three hours

Check and Mate.

[TheDarkling]

Mr Bean: Im sorry did you knock your king over?

You are make yourself look foolish when you declare victory dispite the fact that you are no where near it.

I dont see why I must give these quotes again but I shall

Geordi "something from that deep in subspace shouoldnt be able to exist in our universe"

Thus their realm has a different set of physical rules.

Data(talking about the particles)"we believe they are eminating from a tertiary subspace manifold"

Thus they have some understanding of the subspace realms.

Geordi "the emissions are coming from a tertiary subspace domain but subspace has an infinite number of domains, its like a huge honeycomb with an infinite number of cells"

Theres information on how subspace is set up.

Also note they refer to the domain as being tertiary - this indicates that sensors, warp drives and comms take lpace in one or two subspace realms and everything else is of no use(Due to instability with the differing physical laws i.e the problems the subtrans displayed).

Data "based on the information gathered it seems the Aliens were solonagen based"
Geordi " we think thats why they could come through into our space as easily as they could take us into theirs, they needed to learn how to remodulate their cellular energy states to exist in our UNIVERSE"

Thus it is another universe.

Data "Tricorder readings indicate they created a small pockett of ouit universe in their labouratory"
Geordi"thats probably what they were trying to do in Cargo bay 4, create a pocket of their universe in ours"

Again further proof of it being a place with differing laws governing reality.

A quote about the subtrans being Dimensional shifting could also support this (traveling in a realm with different physical laws cant be good for you).

I said thats probably the meaning in WEG but that doesnt fit with what Geordi was saying.

1.When talking about comms yes (WEG) when talking about other universes/realities - no.

2.He isnt using the same terms as I stated before.

3.Can scan all of the comms freqs(the lower subspace band or however it is described).

I notice you have changed tactics does this mean you cant support your earlier claims?

Also notice how I dont declare victory because my ego isnt the size of a small moon.

I see three options for Subspace use in SW.

1.What they refer to subspace is only the range in whiich comms can travel.

2.What they refer to subspace is only the stable realms that resemble Real space (ie those realms in which Warp, comms and sensors takes place)

3.The two universe dont actually talk about the same thing when they say subspace.

[Mr Bean]

Nice Retort if a bit predicatable


Acutal I can fully Declar Victory because I already know the other quotes your going to bring and they Contrdicts! Themsleves and thus are suspect.

Geordi "something from that deep in subspace shouoldnt be able to exist in our universe

This one for Example, How does Mr La Forge If its an Infinte Set of Demensions know that somthing is or is not impossible if each Domain has diffrent rules and there are infinite amounts how the heck could he know this?
To put it another way, IF all the domains had diffrent rules and there where an infinte amount how could anything be impossible?

Cleary either La Forge is wrong(And yet agian backing me up) Or this is a mear slip of the tonuge like for example if I zapped you directly to the twenty Foot-Tall Yoda made entirely out of Legos in Calfiorna your reaction(And mosts peoples are when I sat there for 30 mins) Was no way or thats impossible desipite the fact yes it WAS possible as a matter of fact they had already built it and it was sitting right in front of thier faces.
Which agian Backs me up, This quote mearly proves my case yet more.
You had the evidance but you drew the conculsioun you wanted to rather than the one that fit the facts, A simple problem of looking to hard

Data(talking about the particles)"we believe they are eminating from a tertiary subspace manifold"

I trust Data about as far as I can throw him, This is pure Tecnobabble and has no referance whatsoever
Tertiary- Third in line or Helpful but not needed
Subspace- Acutal word
Manifold-A Car Part...
Oh like an Exaust Manifold
This is pure Tecnobabble and helps no ones cases, it helps less than the Quantum Re-combublating Tri-Soloiondedian Sensor Array

Geordi "the emissions are coming from a tertiary subspace domain but subspace has an infinite number of domains, its like a huge honeycomb with an infinite number of cells"

If you read my post I already went over it infact its the nail in your coffine if you exuse the anaolgy because Domains refer to a group of Frequancys

Don't you Darkstar on me here

Also note they refer to the domain as being tertiary - this indicates that sensors, warp drives and comms take lpace in one or two subspace realms and everything else is of no use(Due to instability with the differing physical laws i.e the problems the subtrans displayed).

Leap in Logic, Tertiary has many meaings from Secondary to "helpful"

based on the information gathered it seems the Aliens were solonagen based"
Geordi " we think thats why they could come through into our space as easily as they could take us into theirs, they needed to learn how to remodulate their cellular energy states to exist in our UNIVERSE

Hyperspace itself is proof you don't have to go to another Unvierse to leave ours
Also Time Travel(uggh) and one or two other insidents show this as well
Subspace is just another example of this


I'll skip the rest because its mostley nitpicks and your Theorys which I've ether already gone over or will to commment on just two more points

see three options for Subspace use in SW.

1.What they refer to subspace is only the range in whiich comms can travel.

2.What they refer to subspace is only the stable realms that resemble Real space (ie those realms in which Warp, comms and sensors takes place)

3.The two universe dont actually talk about the same thing when they say subspace.

Xim the Despot from all Indcations 25,000 Years Ago used a soild state fuel similar to ST and Warp and Comm sensors very similar to(With Similar ranges)
And three is unlikely as WEG is not the only mention of Subspace is also inculded in the ICS.
Two is similary unikley for the stated above reasons
One even less so

Now then Darkling I'm going off for some sleep(Just hit 10:30 PM here if you want to play guess the time zone go ahead) so I'll be of for the reqiured sleep hours however a last note along with the rest

You need to provide clear consise Evidance that Subspace Domains are NOT Sets of Frequancys which Mr La Fordge is talking about. If you can provide proof then please by all means do
DONT say I already did
DONT say the burden of proof is not on me, I have already provided my Side, ST uses most of the generaly accepted Terminaolgy and one of those things is that Sets of Frequancys are refered to as Domains also that you don't have to go to another Unvierse to leave this one is another point

You HAVE to prove that if you want your aurgment to stick, If indeed you concided before Domains are sets of Frequancys(Mr La Fordge is an Enigneer to get the termiongly mixed up is unusal for him if not Mr Data)
If fact if you had not silently unconcided that point(That a Domain is a Set of Frequancys) we would not be debating this right now

I admit Darkling I'm at a distinic advantage. IF you can not provided proof thats true in ST your aurgment falls apart. However if you can I can still agian attack Mr La Fordges Creability, Plus each indivdual incident I can claim everything from FX erros to Leap's in Logic, You on the other hand because of the way you went about approaching this problem have realy set yourself up on the hard side, The Burden of Proof is heavly skewed towards you because of the way you approcahed the matter

Now then if you'd like to with-drawn and come at the problem from a diffrent angle prehaps one that does not put you in such a precaruious self-defeating postion by all means go ahead

Otherwise sit back I've got two more *Magic Bullet Points you have to disprove if you can't get this one

[TheDarkling]

Nice Retort if a bit predicatable


Acutal I can fully Declar Victory because I already know the other quotes your going to bring and they Contrdicts! Themsleves and thus are suspect.

Geordi "something from that deep in subspace shouoldnt be able to exist in our universe

This one for Example, How does Mr La Forge If its an Infinte Set of Demensions know that somthing is or is not impossible if each Domain has diffrent rules and there are infinite amounts how the heck could he know this?
To put it another way, IF all the domains had diffrent rules and there where an infinte amount how could anything be impossible?

First off he knows whats possible for our universe thus you statement has no relevance whatsoever.

Cleary either La Forge is wrong(And yet agian backing me up) Or this is a mear slip of the tonuge like for example if I zapped you directly to the twenty Foot-Tall Yoda made entirely out of Legos in Calfiorna your reaction(And mosts peoples are when I sat there for 30 mins) Was no way or thats impossible desipite the fact yes it WAS possible as a matter of fact they had already built it and it was sitting right in front of thier faces.
Which agian Backs me up, This quote mearly proves my case yet more.
You had the evidance but you drew the conculsioun you wanted to rather than the one that fit the facts, A simple problem of looking to hard

No because as stated they were altyering the Cargo bay into their universe thus conforming to their laws of nature.
You must have seen this and are now just being dishonest and hoping I wont be able to shoot down your feeble strawmen.

Data(talking about the particles)"we believe they are eminating from a tertiary subspace manifold"

I trust Data about as far as I can throw him, This is pure Tecnobabble and has no referance whatsoever
Tertiary- Third in line or Helpful but not needed
Subspace- Acutal word
Manifold-A Car Part...
Oh like an Exaust Manifold
This is pure Tecnobabble and helps no ones cases, it helps less than the Quantum Re-combublating Tri-Soloiondedian Sensor Array

The relevant part there is tertiary it is clearly referencing that the domain and all others that arent the primary ones are tertiary.

Yet again nothing of worth.

Geordi "the emissions are coming from a tertiary subspace domain but subspace has an infinite number of domains, its like a huge honeycomb with an infinite number of cells"

If you read my post I already went over it infact its the nail in your coffine if you exuse the anaolgy because Domains refer to a group of Frequancys

Don't you Darkstar on me here

Here it comes for the third time (can a lend the hammer please so I can get past your thick skull), its clear he means domain as in universe as is stated before when he references their domain as another universe.

Also note they refer to the domain as being tertiary - this indicates that sensors, warp drives and comms take lpace in one or two subspace realms and everything else is of no use(Due to instability with the differing physical laws i.e the problems the subtrans displayed).

Leap in Logic, Tertiary has many meaings from Secondary to "helpful"

You cant see something in context? fire can mean many things as well but when Picard says it everyone knows what he means even Data - its a shame you cant even match his understanding of language.

Its also good to note that because you cant refute this knowledge you state my interpretation is wrong yet offer none of your own.

based on the information gathered it seems the Aliens were solonagen based"
Geordi " we think thats why they could come through into our space as easily as they could take us into theirs, they needed to learn how to remodulate their cellular energy states to exist in our UNIVERSE

Hyperspace itself is proof you don't have to go to another Unvierse to leave ours
Also Time Travel(uggh) and one or two other insidents show this as well
Subspace is just another example of this

Proof?

This is simply trying to cast doubt on terms without offering alternatives - I thought you were better than this.

I'll skip the rest because its mostley nitpicks and your Theorys which I've ether already gone over or will to commment on just two more points

see three options for Subspace use in SW.

1.What they refer to subspace is only the range in whiich comms can travel.

2.What they refer to subspace is only the stable realms that resemble Real space (ie those realms in which Warp, comms and sensors takes place)

3.The two universe dont actually talk about the same thing when they say subspace.

Xim the Despot from all Indcations 25,000 Years Ago used a soild state fuel similar to ST and Warp and Comm sensors very similar to(With Similar ranges)
And three is unlikely as WEG is not the only mention of Subspace is also inculded in the ICS.
Two is similary unikley for the stated above reasons
One even less so

Can I have quotes on this Warp drive please?

You make an argument against three (without proof however) but you simply ignore 2 and 1.

Your argument against 3 actually backs up 2 so Im still waiting for evidence against those.

Now then Darkling I'm going off for some sleep(Just hit 10:30 PM here if you want to play guess the time zone go ahead) so I'll be of for the reqiured sleep hours however a last note along with the rest

You need to provide clear consise Evidance that Subspace Domains are NOT Sets of Frequancys which Mr La Fordge is talking about. If you can provide proof then please by all means do
DONT say I already did

Why so you can get away with your disregard for canon evidence?
I have provided evidence above if you chose to disregard it (because you are trying to misinterpret it instead of being objective).

DONT say the burden of proof is not on me, I have already provided my Side, ST uses most of the generaly accepted Terminaolgy and one of those things is that Sets of Frequancys are refered to as Domains also that you don't have to go to another Unvierse to leave this one is another point

St uses crazy terminalogy and you know it - Wong constantly complains about Watts changing definition in TNG.

Also if you were objective you would see what he means by domain - which can have many meanings.
How often have you heard radio freqs described as an infinite number of honeycombs?
You also disregard evidence as to why these domains are of no use for comms/sensors not to mention the fact that claim the empire wastes a huge amount of power shielding against them all (lets say when Geordi says infite he really means 100000 (just an example I would expect it to be far higher) 0.001% of the power going to an ISDs shields would actually be in use - thats an insane way to run a ship)

You HAVE to prove that if you want your aurgment to stick, If indeed you concided before Domains are sets of Frequancys(Mr La Fordge is an Enigneer to get the termiongly mixed up is unusal for him if not Mr Data)
If fact if you had not silently unconcided that point(That a Domain is a Set of Frequancys) we would not be debating this right now

I didnt Unconcede at all I stated thats true for WEG not Geordi - you did read my post right?

I admit Darkling I'm at a distinic advantage. IF you can not provided proof thats true in ST your aurgment falls apart. However if you can I can still agian attack Mr La Fordges Creability, Plus each indivdual incident I can claim everything from FX erros to Leap's in Logic, You on the other hand because of the way you went about approaching this problem have realy set yourself up on the hard side, The Burden of Proof is heavly skewed towards you because of the way you approcahed the matter

Ah yes using honesty what the hell was I thinking.
You admit here you will use any dirty trick you can to obscure the actual truth of the matter - you have lowered your standing in my eyes by a great deal, I didnt believe you belonged to the victory at any cost (especially the truth) tribe.

Now then if you'd like to with-drawn and come at the problem from a diffrent angle prehaps one that does not put you in such a precaruious self-defeating postion by all means go ahead

Such as - at the end of the day we are debating a theory that tries to explain the facts not the actual fact that it will work.

Why dont you dispute that it will work?, because you are using the smoke and mirrors you admit you ascribe to above, to cloud the issue.

The fact is the only way you can disprove my facts is to prove that starfleet comms dont share similarities with SW but then the burden of proof would lie with you (and since it cant be done from that angle you would loose) also the fact that you did prove they didnt work you would automatically fail because then yuo would admit the Imps had no denfence.

Otherwise sit back I've got two more *Magic Bullet Points you have to disprove if you can't get this one

I await you next parlor trick with baited breath simply to see what you have however since you have taken to debating a theory explaining the facts and not the facts themselves you have effectively conceded the point that the Subtrans would win.

Heres hoping my quotes work.

[Mr Bean]

Don't slip up on me Darkling your loosing that which made you the best ST debator out there

First off he knows whats possible for our universe thus you statement has no relevance whatsoever

*Blink Blink, Thank you Darkling read your statment agian you contradicted yourself. IF there is infinte Domains which happen to be universes and they have diffrent laws of Physics as you claim then Mr La Fordge statment is rendered meaningless as *Deep in subspace is about as accuratl at *Up in vaccume, NTM you followed up with the fact that he knows whats possible in this ST universe
Whats Possible in the ST universe?
Time Travel
Q
Borg

Hmmmmm not making a good point there when did Mr La Fordge become a memeber of the Q and know everything they do....
The statment is meaningless appyls to what Mr La Fordge says as I've already said it.
How can he know everything about an Infinte amount of unverises if they have diffrent Laws?
RESPOND TO THE STATMENT OR CONCIDE!

No because as stated they were altyering the Cargo bay into their universe thus conforming to their laws of nature.

Hmm and those laws would be what now? How did this affect things? Or where they mearly generating a subspace field in these two places for whatever reason?

The relevant part there is tertiary it is clearly referencing that the domain and all others that arent the primary ones are tertiary.

See above if you can't prove your first point this one is meaningless as well

Here it comes for the third time (can a lend the hammer please so I can get past your thick skull), its clear he means domain as in universe as is stated before when he references their domain as another universe.

I'd glady give you the hammer for I know its not the one to be used on me
Don't you ever understand the idea of *Sliver bullet? Its means a One-Shot kill aginst your aurgment, They are rare in debating but how you set up your postion here leaves you open to this, Unless you can disprove the orgional statment the rest is meangiless as well

Or for the Lay
Your reasoing goes
If A is True then B must be True then D must be true
I've disproven A get the picture?

You cant see something in context? fire can mean many things as well but when Picard says it everyone knows what he means even Data - its a shame you cant even match his understanding of language.

Its also good to note that because you cant refute this knowledge you state my interpretation is wrong yet offer none of your own.

Saddy you can't see your own Leap in Logic from this prehaps I should be a bit more helpful
You take one word *Tertary and spread it into a page and a half of assumptions about Subspace
AGIAN this is yet another point rendered meaningless if you can not disprove the orgional one which so far you have not

Proof?

This is simply trying to cast doubt on terms without offering alternatives - I thought you were better than this

Burden of Proof Fallicy, You provided no information to back up your claim then demanded I do when I pointed out reasons why that could not be true agian without provinding evidance

Can I have quotes on this Warp drive please?
You make an argument against three (without proof however) but you simply ignore 2 and 1.

Your argument against 3 actually backs up 2 so Im still waiting for evidence against those.

Twice now Darkling Burden of Proof Fallicy, You make a claim YOU have to back it up with Evidance.
The speacfic quoutes I'll get latter today concering Xim the Despot

And I ignore 1 and 2 beause you provide no proof for them if you can't back it up don't suggest it.


As for the rest I won't take the time except to say simply you don't get it, I'm out and out telling you what I can am able to do because of the serious flaws you set up in your postion and trying to be a bit helpful so that the next time around it won't be quite so easy for me

You still have a point to disprove Darkling, Do or Don't you have one more post to do it in before I'm force to delcar victory because as SirNitrim kindly said I will not engange in page after page of back and forths

Disprove the orgional point or it ends.

[SirNitram]

Oh, this is rich. Now Geordi is infallible? Trekkies seem to be willing to do anything to maintain flimsy dialogue as untouchable.

[TheDarkling]

Mr Bean:I never stated Geordi knows everything but when he knows what this particle is and says it shouldnt exist in out universe (and is backed up by Picard and Data) unless theres a reason not to believe him then we believe him.

You also take Geordi to be an expert on subspace earlier on - are you now backing away from that because it suits your purpose? that sort of dishonesty is not becoming.

Now if you cant comprehend the above then Im surprised you can type - I also like the subtle attacks against my crediability you keep making.

You mean where they alktering the laws of Physics in the cargo bay? well first off they do create a stable particle that defies out physics and Data and Geordi both theorise thats what they are trying to do sine we see htey have made apocket of our universe in theirs.

Once again when taken in context thats what it means - I dont see anpother explanation thus we take it to mean the most logical thing.

You are simply saying that my use of a quote is wrong when any Sane person can see it isnt (Now there maybe another explanation but I dont see it).

I do get the idea of a silver bullet but this isnt one because you have nothing apart from an obession with ignoring a quote and disregarding quotes other peolpe give us.

I dont take the tertary and speard it out to form assumptions it stands just as well without the quote - we are told rthe other domains have differing physical laws multiple times but im sure you will just ignore that.

No I asked for proof that this warp drive exists - you canrt simply make claims without evidence (thats not how it works).

I also did provie a welth of wvidence forr my 3 conclusions (differingh physical laws, near infinite domains etc etc).

Now you attacked 3 but you say I dont provide proof so why should you? hten why attack number 3 could it be that you tried to discredit them all but since your weak attempt failed you are now trying to say yu dont need to refute my points.

I also like how you completely skip the part where I challenge you to disprove he Subtrans works to continue to concentrate on the multi layered subspace heory.

In short you are right if we ignore everything Data/Geordi/Picard says in the episode and what we see then my theory falls apart - if you ignore canon evidence for some reason then I dont understand whats valid for use in these debates.

SirNitram: If you had read my post and not just Mr Beans fanciful tale you would realise that I never said Geordi was infallible but he
A)Knows this particle exists.
B)He knows this particle shouldnt exist in our dimension.
C)Data also says the same thing.
D)As does Picard.
E)We also have further quotes showing that its another universe with differing physical (the ALiens cant exists in our universe etc).

Mr Bean is basically saying that I cant use quotes from anyone even when they make sense with what we see on screen but he offers no reason why - thus the quotes are valid and can be used.

[SirNitram]

I'm referring to you demanding he must be right about infinite layers of subspace, Darkling. Of course, anyone who understands the concept of infinity realizes it's unmeasurable.. That is, you can never know for sure if it's really infinite, or just larger than you can currently count. Geordi, who is an engineer of a civilization that's been toying with subspace less than 3 centuries, will know less about subspace and it's depth than a civilization that's been using it for two hundred and fifty thousand years. Of course, you wave your hand and insert terms into the quote that aren't there(As anyone who glances at it where I reposted it in this thread will realize), like 'Domain', in an attempt to deny that an ISD's stated capacities work.

[Mr Bean]

I never assumed Gerodi to be an expert on the subject YOU did

I've given evidance backing up that Domain is a term refering to a set of Frequancys
Thats Cannon RL Fact
And furthmore a question for you Darkling

How is ANYTHING impossible in the ST universe?
They have anti-gravity devices
They can *Breach the event horizen
The Q, nuff said
Time Travel, see Q
8472 and Fludic Space
And look at what Kirk Runs into!
Seriously Darkling
I've backed it up, you have yet to counter it that Mr La Forge Either A has no idea what he's talking about or B does but he's wrong about this

I never claimed he was an expert you did
Personaly I think he and Data a almost as idoitic as that damn Weasly kid

[Romulan_nemesis]

Transphasic Torpedoes and Ablative Armor (Endgame)

Nuff Said.

Also, the phasers on the Galaxy-X Class (All Good Things)

[Mr Bean]

Not Phase cloaks RM?

Or do you think the Armor is just more useful(Keep in mind you only get to keep one)

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: I gave the quote with the word Domain in it from WEG (I did type the quote out in one of the other threads) so all I can assume is that we have differing versions but lets say you are right it still means nothing as I have shown what SW considers Subspace in relation to ST.

I also dont take his quote of inifinite as meaning that it just means a large number beyond which the Feds can count.
What I took him (and Data and Picard) as knowing the laws of our universe and they all said this particles existance in our space wasnt possible and neither was hte Aiens cellular energy state - both of these things can live in their realm thus there realm has differing laws governing it.
Its simple really im not claiming the infinite quote is true but that its means a large number beyond the Feds ability to chart.

Mr Bean:
Good Lord its an army of strawmen.
Anti gravity conforms to their laws of physics, as does time travel, the Q are from outside our universe and our able to alter physical law.
They can breach an event horizon (yes its insane but it conforms to their laws of physics).
Fluidic space is also possible yadda yadda yadda.

Geordi (Data/Picard) all stae that things can exist in their univerwse that cant in ours thus their universe has differing laws of physics - its simple and obvious and what you have stated above has no relevance whatsoever you really are grasping at straws and still havent come up with a way to refute the evidence I have shown that Subtrans will work or that subspace is multi layered with the laws of physics altering between layers.

Your entire argument rested on the fact that SF couldnt block comms and I have shown they can so you have stopped trying to disporve that subtrans will work and have moved onto trying to attack the theory I have come up with to explain why.

You entire argument relies on me proving my evidence is correct but you know what I dont have to - the quotes stand unless they contradict other canon evidence or make no possible sense, the quotes do make sense and arent contradicted and thus stand.

As for your domain claim its clearly not what they mean here with the multiple references to other universes and realms etc.
I once saw a Seinfeld episode where they had a bet on how long they could be master of their domain and I assure you they went talking about frequencies.

Now since you keep screaming that Domain means Freq despite all the canon evidence to the contray I will also give you something else to chew on, If he does mean freq then that means that certain freqs in subspace have differing physical laws (this is what you are saying not I) and thus these other domains still wouldnt be usefukl for comms thus even if your outlandish interpretation that flies in the face of both canon evidence and reason it still wouldnt help your case.

Since we have had about 6 more posts that havent even toucked upon the subtrans (which your arguments against fell apart when I showed SF can jam comms) I would say th\t the only problem with it are the ones SirNitram raised can a piece of matter arrive in an open space and not a wall and can a SF ship survive long enough to use the weapon.

Both of these objections will limit the devices use but not prevent because at least SF would be able to fight back and would be able to emlpoy the Subtrans as an effective planetary defence.

Would SF use it - I doubt it (but a case could be made - flimsy though it would be) however since the purpose of this thread was to pick a one shot (or in this case greater than one shot) tech to use in a battle against the Imps I believe this would work.

[SirNitram]

You've proven jack shit about what the Imperails consider Subspace, Darkling. Nothing. I've seen not one quote of yours that proves the two are different.. Why? Because there is no such quote. I don't trust your 'version' of the quote(Particularly since I've not seen it in any of our threads, and you've certainly not cited the source), because it definately contradicts with the version I pulled from WEG.

Of course, since you have no way of defending your precious Subtrans would work, you'll just start imitating Dark Star, repeating the same nonsense argument over and over and over like the Energizer Bunny. What nonsense will you pull when I post the quote that shows Deflector shields stop Subspace, I wonder....

[SirNitram]

Curse the lack of edit button. I have found a second version of the Ranger quote, but it still doesn't include the word 'Domain'. It does, however, replace 'Entirity Of Subspace' with 'The entire Subspace spectrum'. However, it's about the same thing, so I see no reason to change my position, barring actual evidence against this.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: Its you who is doing a passable Darkstar imitation by saying I have proven nothing etc etc.

Now you say they scan all of subspace ok lets say they do.

Then their definition of subspace comes into question.

Since I have shown that all of ST subspace cant be used for comms and thatblocking all subspace realms would be a huge waste of energy etc due to the differing physical laws.

Therefore the question is what do the Imps mean by subspace :-

Well they dont mean all of subspace for the above reason so we have 3 options.

1.The imps consider Subspace to be the comms band only (This is backed up by the fact they are talking about comms in that quote).

2.The Imps consider subspace to be the usable realms of subspace that conform closely to our (the realms where Warp, sensors and comms take place).

3.The imps version of subspace doesnt conform to the ST version of it.

I dont care which one of the above it is since they all fit my theory.

However the true crux of the matter is the following.

Subtrans cant be blocked by measures that block Subspace comms or subspace sensors (or other methods such as subpace radiation shields).

Thus people wishing to refute my theory must prove that SW subspace comms operates differently than ST subspace comms.
Before you say burden of proof lies with me the two techs are assumed to be in parity until proven otherwise.

Now comes the better part - if you can prove that subspace comms in SW do operate on completely different reasoning that the ST (which I doubt) then you must also prove that they can block ST comms (and other subspace realms) which you cant do if the two subspaces arent the same - the imps would have no way to deffend against subspace transporters.

[Mr Bean]

Last chance TheDarkling
How eaxactly if there are infinte Subspace *Domains can Jordi acutal say that somthing is impossible
We have and do see things violate ST Physics all the time. How if it is what he says it is be true?
He contradicts himself

And as Nitrim is kindly providing quotes also contradicting him, from futhre on in the series where they pretty damn likley know more about it

Or to put it another way
Once people thought the world was flat, One day a guy sailed all the way around it disprovening the common theroy, Everyone slaped themsleves on the head went Ooooh and got over it
Those that countiued to belive in the flat earth where from then on called idiots.
Helpful story?

[SirNitram]

Let's count, children.

Peices of evidence the Subspace referred to in SW are only the regions used for comms by ST: 0

We must, of course, consider that subspace is used for comms and sensors of vastly varying ranges and propagation speed, from emergency beacons on Starfighters, to the Imperial Holonet. Darkling, of course, would have us beleive this does not allow for any scanning of the depths of Subspace, despite quotes explicitly stating they can scan the entirity of it. You, like many others, attempt to twist this to help your interperatation, but I'm calling in Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation of the stated ability is exaclty what it says: That it can scan all of subspace.

Pro-Trek debators and Trekkies often hate Occam's Razor, because it tends to slaughter their theories. Your final statement is truly ridiculous.

Subtrans cant be blocked by measures that block Subspace comms or subspace sensors (or other methods such as subpace radiation shields).

See, you're overinterperating the dialogue. Nothing in the Federation can block it, but that does not mean nothing that touches Subspace can block it. Deflector shields that completely severe the connection to Subspace are not known by the Federation, thus there is zero reason to beleive they can't block the Subtrans. Except, of course, that denying this is the only way you can cling to your hope for Trek.

[TheDarkling]

Mr Bean: No for the last time Bean old chap read the following at least 5 times to get it to you.

He says its impossible in our universe not the other subspace domains which are classified as universes in their own right but OUR universe.

You got that he says uits impossible for OUR universe as in REAL space not the many subspace realms.

OUR UNIVERSE not the other subspace DOMAINS but OUR universe.

When I refer to out universe I of course refer to the universe that Geordi inhabits.

He knows that these particles exist but cant exist in OUR universe so does data and Picard this shows that they have done testing on this particle and seen what happens to it in (uyes you guessed it) OUR universe.

The same goes for the cellular energy states of the aliens - ok in their universe not ok in OUR universe.

OK I hope you now understand.

No MR Bean SirNitram is providing quotes from SW not from ST but never mind.

SirNitram:
Lets see children (count along using your fingers if you must)
What dopes SirNitram have - 1 quote from WEG (not exactly a great tome of knowledge).
What does TheDarkling have - Quotes and canon evidence from htree episodes that back up his claim and a theory that also use SirNitrams quote.

ThereforeSirNitram ignores evidence while TheDarkling incorperates it all.

Certain people love Occam's Razor because it throws out any theory that requires someone to use their brain (these people often dont understand the theory and thus feel fear towards it).
What these people fail to mention is OCcams Razor requires the theory to actually take into account the evidence at hand.

You guys have not put one new piece of reasoning or evidence into either of your posts - I ask what was the point of them.

I dont dispute the fact that the quote says all of subspace I hopwever dispute the way in which SW defines subspace - I have offered three conclusion but to say it scans all of subspace contradicts evidence (a big no no) and also intelligent reasoning.

Sir Nitram believes that his one quote > the evidence of three episodes and many canon quotes.

You see not only does he throw out evidence but he throws out more evidence to simply cling to one piece (if anything his quote is the anomaly yet he sticks to that and that alone - another big no no).

TheDarkling on the other hand uses all the evidence and even comes up with a theory to explain it.

They also cling to the fact that my theory proves or disproves wether a subtrans will work when in reality it simple explains WHY it works.

Thus I can only come to a conclusion based upon the evidence at hand (take notes guys you see how I use evidence) that these desperate attacks will continue although who you type with your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears i will never know.

As for this being the only hope for trek - It wouldnt get used in a war anyway you just fear admitting that the puny Federation could be better on any way than the mighty empire (demonstrated in the fact that people think the empire are good guys and that the federation is evil - in direct contravention of the respective creators wishes.)

I will live you with one though - is it in line with what we know of the empire that hey would waste approx 99% of their shield power defending against relmas that no one can attack from.
Is in also in keeping to scan so called comms channels that cnat carry comms (the very fact hat they are called comms channels shows you argument to be flawed.)
Why has the empire never been attacked by forces from the other realms.
Would the empire use up ship space on equipment that cannot be of any use in combat against the Rebels or other enemies.

Everything to do with SirNitrams gross love of a quote (which I can explain) over all other canon goes against what we know of the empire and also sensible military reasoning.
It also causes us to throw out what we know of ST history since many subspace aliens should be attacking them due to the fact that the empires ships constantly create havok in their realms.

In short SirNitram has one quote stacked agsiont everything else we nkow about subspace in ST and everything we knoiw abuot the Empire and he SW history.

I can use all evidence on the subject and not disregard half of canon along with it.
In short SirNitrams blind faith in a single quote (which in of its self proves nothing because it then leads us to the definition of subspace which cant be the same for both universes) is leading him to ruin simply because he has nothing else to which to clling to and anyone reading this thread (who isnt grossly biased) can see that his elevation of this quote above all other canon is idiotic to put it mildly.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Considering all the temporal Inconsistancies, I would use some (Technobabble) Philidelphia Experiment type trick, not only send the SD through time, but fusing over 99% of the crew to the hull would be a nice touch.

[SirNitram]

Nice strawman, Darkling. Very nice. Unfortunately, it's still a strawman.

I'm not trying to discount all of what we know of subspace, but you want people to beleive that. I am simply pointing out a single ISD can scan all of Subspace, a simple, stated ability. You don't like this, and I can see why, but that does not invalidate it.

[SirNitram]

Considering all the temporal Inconsistancies, I would use some (Technobabble) Philidelphia Experiment type trick, not only send the SD through time, but fusing over 99% of the crew to the hull would be a nice touch.

And suddenly the ISD appears in Germany at Einstein's labratory, where he's presenting the Chronosphere to the Allies, before the Soviets attack.

[TheDarkling]

I dont dispute the fact that the quote says all of subspace I however dispute the way in which SW defines subspace

Hmm it seems you are wrong - now did you read my post because I said the above but you seem to have just ignored it.

[TheDarkling]

That blasted chronosphere was more trouble than it was worth.

All the problems it caused, I mean yse it won the war for the Allies but it was still touch and go defending the Black forest lab before its first power up.

[SirNitram]

I dont dispute the fact that the quote says all of subspace I however dispute the way in which SW defines subspace

Hmm it seems you are wrong - now did you read my post because I said the above but you seem to have just ignored it.

I ignored your post because it all revolved around the strawman of what I'm saying somehow invalidating all that's heard of subspace, Darkling. If you have something intelligent to say, please try to keep it brief, legible, and if you don't have some problem that prevents you from easily doing so, grammatically correct.