The size of starfleet

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-30 04:48pm

TheDarkling wrote:Doomriser: It wasnt the Romulan - Federation border it was he Romulan - Klingon border.
Its not a huge shock that they dont keep a huge fleet by klingon space - that might annoy the Klingons.

But the Federation has long borders with both the Romulans and the Klingons, so because this is an area along the Romulan-Klingon border, I would expect the Federation to be able to call for all of its ships along BOTH borders reasonably quickly. The fact that only twenty ships were stationed on BOTH borders is extremely disappointing. Even a peaceful group should maintain greater patrols along the border with its enemies, especially since Romulan ships under cloak could easily enter the Neutral Zone, and since D'Derix class ships, fairly standard for the Romulans, are slightly more powerful than a GCS, one of the most powerful ships in the entire Federation. Twenty small ships could easily be overwhelmed by even a relatively small Romulan task force of fifteen or twenty, particularly if those ships were spread out along the entire Neutral Zone.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-30 04:49pm

I dont think the Romulans and Klingons fight much after the Klingon-Federation alliance, its always stated that the alliance keeps them in check.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-30 04:53pm

Master of Ossus: Why patrol the edge of Klingon space?
We dont know exactly how the borders are arranged the Federation - Romulan border doesnt necessarily have to be close to the Klingon Federation border.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2002-07-30 04:56pm

Many of the ships that participated in the Battle of Wolf 359 were prototypes and museum pieces. let me illistrate:

here is a protype replacement for the Contitution that was never built

this ship was a menber of the transwarp drive project

here is another from the same project

here is a four engine ship from the project as well

There appears that even a Contitution-Class ship participated in the battle! It may have even been the Decommisioned Enterprise-A!

Here is a prototype frigate that had recentally been built. The USS Qyushu, and the USS New Oreans

A prototype ship similer to the Stargazer

My conclusion is that there were very few mainline ships in the area of Earth the time of this battle. This may indicate a small fleet or the complete lack of intelligent deployment tactics on the part of the Federation. I like figures for the Federation Fleet of 2,000 - 3,000

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-30 04:59pm

Darkling, one would maintain at least limited patrols along Klingon space to prevent attacks by fanatical Klingon factions (we have observed this happening multiple times), and for the purpose of maintaining at least some intelligence of another major regional power in ST.

The Federation has extended borders with BOTH the Klingons and Romulans. They also have a starbase within a reasonable distance from the Klingon-Romulan border, or Picard would have assembled his little task force somewhere in the middle of space. It is likely, in fact, that that starbase was built for the explicit purpose of monitoring the Klingon-Romulan border, but that has not been proven. Since the Federation has border with both of those powers, if the Klingons and Romulans have a common border, one would expect that border to be within range of the Federation-Romulan AND the Federation-Klingon borders. It would be very strange for this to be incorrect.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-30 05:01pm

I'm thinking MAX 3,000 ships and that is counting smaller ships, perhaps even fighters, there is just too much cannon evidence that the fleet is spread thinly in their space and don't have the ships to do much of anything on a short notice...as I mentioned before in ST III they could not even blockade a single star system.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-30 05:10pm

Its been shown that the Feds are too trusting so why expect them to patrol the klingno border, whaty m,ade factions have we seen that really pose a threat to the Feds(who let the klingons police their own).

The major forces along the Klingon border were dismantled at the end of the cold war and it was probably part of the treaty that the forceson the norder remained small.

As for the Romulans who the hell knows in ST 6 they almost seem to be part of the Federatioin so I never understand whats going on with them.

On the border issue you are assuming that the three empires are by each other ut it possible that someone else has a border spliting up the connection between the three.

I didnt explain that very well sorry.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-30 05:29pm

Stravo wrote:I'm thinking MAX 3,000 ships and that is counting smaller ships, perhaps even fighters, there is just too much cannon evidence that the fleet is spread thinly in their space and don't have the ships to do much of anything on a short notice...as I mentioned before in ST III they could not even blockade a single star system.

.

3000 ships counting fighters is not enough.The federation extends for 8000 light years,correct?After all in a DS 9 episode there was a reference to a federation colony so far that SUBSPACE MESSAGES took MONTHS to arrive there. This means that a lot of ships will be very,very,far from Earth and the borders.Many others will be in exploration,again very,very,very far from earth.
Considered their mindset,size of the federation,starfleet priorities, a fleet of 4000 ships can be spread so thinly that it is consistent with what we see in the show.
So again I estimate it in 4000 "capital" ships + starfighters.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-30 05:30pm

I understood what you were saying about the border, but remember that borders in space are three dimensional. It would be very unusual for one star empire to be even reasonably powerful if it was crushed between two agressively expansionist ones and a third that is not very agressive but will defend itself if attacked. Such a power is likely to be wiped out very quickly by its agressive neighbors. Also, that Picard bothered to gather a fleet in case intervention became necessary indicates that the Federation had access to the conflict area if something happened first that allowed the Federation to violate the Neutral Zone (a war would do nicely). However, if the Romulans and the Klingons were fighting, and another power separated the contested region from the Federation, it is unlikely that a power that would have become isolationist due to its neighbors would allow the Federation to interfere. Instead, it is more likely that a fourth regional power would have encouraged the conflict in the hopes that they could sweep up the weakened powers, OR so that they could side with the stronger power in order to secure more territory or other concessions from the victor. The ability of the Federation to intervene if they were separated from the conflict area as you proposed would be highly dubious.

Even in peace there should still be some Federation ships patrolling the Klingon border. They should be there, at least, for customs pusposes, and allowing SF the power to intervene in Klingon matters if absolutely necessary. They would also be there to monitor the border for changes that might indicate a shift in power within the Klingon Empire. Since the Empire seems to be extremely unstable, politically, the Federation should have been worried about a shift in power. With the Romulans, such a patrol is even more important because the Romulans are hostile though somewhat isolationist in their later years, and because the Romulans have cloaking devices that might allow the Romulans to approach Federation territory without being detected early. This would mean that more patrols would be necessary.

Another reason to station ships along BOTH borders is to act as a kind of coastguard. Remember that neutral traffic and unarmed ships are allowed to pass through the Neutral Zone, and it might be necessary for SF to come to their assistance if one of them has some sort of emergency on board.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-30 05:52pm

Another reason to station ships along BOTH borders is to act as a kind of coastguard. Remember that neutral traffic and unarmed ships are allowed to pass through the Neutral Zone, and it might be necessary for SF to come to their assistance if one of them has some sort of emergency on board.

Besides, you never know when an aggresive power may try to invade one of your worlds (hmmm Let's say VULCAN) with two antiquated transports full of troops....IF anyone knows what episode I'm talking about you get the idea...

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-30 05:56pm

You say have a Klingon border patrol is good for spying - klingon space is open to any federatin vessels that wish to take a joy ride in it thus spies would just take a civilain transport and have a look around.

The cutsoms ideais valid apart from the fact that Klingon ships can be boarded only for health and safety checks and not to check for contraband (Ref Gambit 2), add to this the fact that it would require a hug fleet to check all the ships crossing the border and a patrol for custom reasons looks unlikely.

A patrol for search and rescue ops probably happens but the duty is shared between the governments and so neither fleet has a huge presence on the border.

In the early TNG days SF was exploration only - the cold war with the Klingons had ended decades ago (in which SF military branch was dismantled or at least curtailed), the Romulans had been gone for decades - the only wars in recent memory were the Cardassian War and the Tzenkethi border disputes.

After the return of the Romulans, the Borg attacks, the Klingons returning to hardline doctrine and finally the Dominion war I think SF may begin to bulk up its military arm again (evident in the building of ships that are closer to warships than cruise ships).

On the issue of a 4th power not having much chance of survival stuck betwen the other three I would disagree.
The Romulans werent ready to take on the Feds alone and neither were the Klingons (even their alliance was held in check, probably due to internal dissent) so attacking a 4th minor power would have given the Federation the excuse it needed to attack the Klingons who world then be facing a war against the Feds + The Tholians (for example).

The entire situation during TOS was the fact that the threat of warfare could cause either side heavy loses add another power aiding the Federation and the scales tip agaisnt the Klingons.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-30 05:57pm

Stravo: The Vulcan systems defense fleet (ship?) could of easily handled those - the Romulans were just using their standard deceit to try and gain the upper hand.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-30 06:08pm

TheDarkling wrote:Stravo: The Vulcan systems defense fleet (ship?) could of easily handled those - the Romulans were just using their standard deceit to try and gain the upper hand.

WHAT Vulcan defense fleet????? Is there ANY proof that such exists since Earth needed DAYS to get starships together to defend it from the Borg.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-30 06:11pm

Ref Gambit part 2 - Riker contacts Vulcan to tell them not to shoot down a raiding ship that Picard is on.
Thus they have planet based defense or some minimal ships in space to protect the system.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-30 06:26pm

TheDarkling wrote:Ref Gambit part 2 - Riker contacts Vulcan to tell them not to shoot down a raiding ship that Picard is on.
Thus they have planet based defense or some minimal ships in space to protect the system.

Never let it be said that I don't concede a point when clear evidence is presented, but don't you find it odd that the Romulans thought that they could seriously take and hold a world with two transports of troops?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-30 06:31pm

Stravo: Yes it was odd - even if the forces landed and the Vulcans sat there and did nothing the Federation would have defeated the troops in a few weeks.

Another point about these Vulcan defense is that Riker contacted a member of the Vulcan civilian government and not SF so the question is - who is in charge of these forces/defenses.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-30 06:41pm

TheDarkling wrote:Stravo: Yes it was odd - even if the forces landed and the Vulcans sat there and did nothing the Federation would have defeated the troops in a few weeks.

Another point about these Vulcan defense is that Riker contacted a member of the Vulcan civilian government and not SF so the question is - who is in charge of these forces/defenses.

So the question then presents itself, does each member world have its own defensive force? If that is the case then perhaps the Federation is not as strong a central authority as one might expect.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-30 06:43pm

Well a woman in te same episode said she was working for Vulcan Intelligence and Picard knew what she was talking about.

Races have their own defense forces and intelligence groups ? - interesting stuff.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-30 07:48pm

Darkling: you failed to answer all of my points about there not being a fourth power in the middle, there. First of all, attacking a fourth power would not give SF the power to intervene. When the Klingons and the Cardassians had their little war, SF could not intervene (in spite of the wishes of some of its officers) except to pull the Cardassian civilian government out. Their hands were tied.

Also, a fourth power there would not have allowed SF to intervene had there been a war between the Romulans and the Klingons. This should be obvious if we examine the basic behavior of species. If you are trying to tell me that a fourth power could survive a war with BOTH the Romulans and the Klingons, then I believe you need to re-watch ST. Not even the Federation was capable of doing so.

A fourth power would likely have been wiped out. Remember that during TOS the Romulans and Klingons had an alliance. The Federation was not fighting against either one of them with any consistency. A fourth power would have been wiped out during this period, which extended to the era of Ambassador-class ships (and, indirectly, Reg. Barclay and TNG).

A Federation presence should have been maintained along the border to act as a customs check-point, even if only allowed to board for the purposes of determining the presence or lack of presence of disease. This is an important duty that needs to be carried out consistently. Even if not all ships can be checked (which you have no evidence of, but you admit that it should have been a large fleet), it is still important to determine if they are should be safely permitted to cross the border.

Are you saying that Star Fleet was so used to peace that they were unprepared for war along THREE fronts? Think about it. You told us that the fleet around Earth was justifiable because the Federation was used to peace, and that although it was strategically moronic it was excusable. Now you are telling us that it is okay to leave vast tracks of border unguarded because the Romulans and Klingons, both aggressive species and one of them outright hostile to the Federation, should have simultaneously been left unguarded because they had not recently attacked? A much more likely explanation for this is that Starfleet does not have enormous numbers of ships. Also, Utopia Planetia shipyards is in orbit around Earth, as is Earth Station McKinley (or, at least, nearby). Are you saying that only forty ships were around Earth, including potentially spaceworthy ones inside both manufacturing areas during BoBW? Again, the most likely explanation is that SF does not have many combat-ready space craft.

Also remember that even if coast-guard duties are split between the two major powers along a border (which they most certainly are not, ref. Kobyashi Maru test), then there should be more ships stationed along the border, if there are so many ships moving back and forth there to require a "hug[e]" fleet to inspect them all. The better explanation, which explains both (your explanation is self-contradictory), is that there are not that many ships transitting back and forth from the Klingon Empire to the Federation.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-30 08:17pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Darkling: you failed to answer all of my points about there not being a fourth power in the middle, there. First of all, attacking a fourth power would not give SF the power to intervene. When the Klingons and the Cardassians had their little war, SF could not intervene (in spite of the wishes of some of its officers) except to pull the Cardassian civilian government out. Their hands were tied.

That has no relevance in TOS the Khitomer accords dont exist.

Master of Ossus wrote:Also, a fourth power there would not have allowed SF to intervene had there been a war between the Romulans and the Klingons. This should be obvious if we examine the basic behavior of species. If you are trying to tell me that a fourth power could survive a war with BOTH the Romulans and the Klingons, then I believe you need to re-watch ST. Not even the Federation was capable of doing so.

I pointed out why the Klingon-Romulan alliance didnt attack the Fedeartion thus attacking a forth power would once again give hte Federation an advantage.
I believe it is you who must rewatch TOS - if the Klingnogs and Romulans
are as blood thristy and powerfull as you portray them, why did they not attack the Federation?

Master of Ossus wrote:A fourth power would likely have been wiped out. Remember that during TOS the Romulans and Klingons had an alliance. The Federation was not fighting against either one of them with any consistency. A fourth power would have been wiped out during this period, which extended to the era of Ambassador-class ships (and, indirectly, Reg. Barclay and TNG).

Once again I stated that the Big 3 were at a stand off anyone who attacked a forth power would have weakened their position opening up an oportunity for the others (the Feds) to attack and win a quick victory.

Master of Ossus wrote:A Federation presence should have been maintained along the border to act as a customs check-point, even if only allowed to board for the purposes of determining the presence or lack of presence of disease. This is an important duty that needs to be carried out consistently. Even if not all ships can be checked (which you have no evidence of, but you admit that it should have been a large fleet), it is still important to determine if they are should be safely permitted to cross the border.

We are told that Klingons may enter Federation space with impunity and that bording of ships is a very rare occurance (Ref Gambit 1).

Master of Ossus wrote:Are you saying that Star Fleet was so used to peace that they were unprepared for war along THREE fronts? Think about it. You told us that the fleet around Earth was justifiable because the Federation was used to peace, and that although it was strategically moronic it was excusable. Now you are telling us that it is okay to leave vast tracks of border unguarded because the Romulans and Klingons, both aggressive species and one of them outright hostile to the Federation, should have simultaneously been left unguarded because they had not recently attacked? A much more likely explanation for this is that Starfleet does not have enormous numbers of ships. Also, Utopia Planetia shipyards is in orbit around Earth, as is Earth Station McKinley (or, at least, nearby). Are you saying that only forty ships were around Earth, including potentially spaceworthy ones inside both manufacturing areas during BoBW? Again, the most likely explanation is that SF does not have many combat-ready space craft..

I make no claims on SF fleet size I was simply comenting on your assumption.
After ST 6 the SF military is cut, the neutral zone with the Klingons is gotten rid of and the fleets removed from the border because the Klingons cant possibly wage a war against the Feds.
At the same time the Romulans are best friends with the Federation (The Romulan ambassador sits in on SF military briefing) thus they arent a threat - get a hold of ST 6, it will help you understand the situation.

Master of Ossus wrote:Also remember that even if coast-guard duties are split between the two major powers along a border (which they most certainly are not, ref. Kobyashi Maru test), then there should be more ships stationed along the border, if there are so many ships moving back and forth there to require a "hug[e]" fleet to inspect them all. The better explanation, which explains both (your explanation is self-contradictory), is that there are not that many ships transitting back and forth from the Klingon Empire to the Federation.

ST 2 is before ST 6 - get your history in order.
An assumption based on what?
And in what why is my explanation self-contradictory?

I say a huge fleet would be needed to police the border and that searching of vessels isnt permitted under the terms of the Federation-Klingon alliance aparft from a vague reference to health and safety checks.[/quote]

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-30 08:28pm

TheDarkling wrote: I say a huge fleet would be needed to police the border

Ten ships represents a huge SF fleet.

CONCESSION ACCEPTED.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-30 08:33pm

Master of Ossus: Listen up moron.
Unless you want a hammering like Mr Bean handnig out to you the other day you better actually read my posts.

THEY DONT PATROL THE BORDER

Did you actually try and refute my evidence or reasoning?

NO

Why not? because you cant (maybe it can be done but not by you it seems).

Thus I accept your concession- unless you actually hve some evidence?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-30 08:39pm

Wake up and smell the coffee, Darkling. If vessels are almost never searched (as you claim) then very few vessels would be needed to actually police the border. That still represents SOME patrols (you appear to say that it does not). Your position is self contradictory. I think the evidence is that SF does patrol the border, but with a laughable force of starships. Their overconfidence is their weakness.

BTW, this does not explain why they do not patrol the Romulan border more heavily. They certainly should, since it seems in TNG that the Romulans violate the Neutral Zone every third episode.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-30 08:45pm

Master of Ossus: So you just restate your claims without actually providing evidence or refuting mine?

Why patrol a vast border with a few ships when you couldnt actually stop them.

Even if you have a huge fleet why waste the ships when they could be put to better use? they dont search vessels under the terms of the treaty except for health and safety - why have a health and safety patrol on the border?

You have no evidence they patrol the Klingon border.
Even if you did it may be vast as you describe it meaning that all the forces that yu claim are on patrol would arrive to aid in Picards fleet.

You also have no evidence that the neutral zone is not heavily patroled - we know that ships spend entire missions simply patroling the neutral zone (Ref In the Flesh).

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-30 08:53pm

Do you seriously think that there is no reason to have a health/safety patrol along a border? What happens if a Klingon smuggles in a single tribble? He could destroy vast portions of the Federation! What if there is a Klingon disease that is going around the Klingon homeworld? It could conceivably affect every Klingon in the Federation, and it might even affect non-Klingons, seeing as how Klingons are close enough to people to breed. In fact, it might be far worse for non-humans. A Klingon cold could kill humans. What would happen if there wasn't a health patrol?

BTW, my evidence that the Romulan Neutral Zone is not heavily policed is that Picard went ALONE into the Neutral Zone to get some good scans of what appeared to be cloaked ships to long-range sensors, and it was conceivable to the Romulans that he would go alone, instead of with a group of Federation buddies, even though his ship was outgunned by any one of theirs (as it turned out, he had some Klingons along with him, but still, it fooled the Romulans). Also, the twenty-ship armada that Picard set up was pathetic. For a fleet that was preparing for a renewed set of hostilities their fleet was laughable in both size and firepower. Many of those ships were older classes, and many of them were very small or had very few weapons.