Circumcision..Child abuse or parental right?

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Justforfun000
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Post by Justforfun000 »

In all honesty, I'm glad it happened back then, because I most certainly would NOT want to go through that even as a 5 year old, let alone an 18 year old.
Is the fact that you don't remember it a valid reason for doing it to an infant? What if a religious ritual existed where you burned a baby with cigarette butts for a night to smudge out evil spirits. Would this be perfectly fine because it wouldn't be remembered later in life?

After all, the burns would heal. There would be no lasting damage. :roll:
Besides, after speaking to a number of my female friends stated their preference for circumcised over uncircumcised.
Yes, well bully for you. As a gay male it's the complete opposite. Most men prefer uncircumsized. So needless to say I could care LESS what females prefer. Besides, they generally prefer them for two reasons. They find them esthetically pleasing because all pictures they have ever seen have been of circumsized men, and they are used to it. An uncut dick throws them off. It would be like discovering women had coverings over their nipples at birth, but they were removed like a prepuce. I'd wager most men would find a women with this "natural" covering over her would find it less appealing.
Secondly, women I have asked have had bad experiences many times with people who don't practice proper hygiene.
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Post by Icehawk »

I don't understand why you're splitting hairs. It's the same thing.

How could FORCIBLY removing healthy tissue by a scalpel, or similar cutting instrument not be construed as damage?

It doesn't make any difference as to the reasoning behind it, or whether it was wanted for cosmetic purposes. Even piercing your ear is still "damaging" it.
Im just saying that the word "damage" doesnt seem to be a very accurate term for something so minor. Its "damage" but its not real damage. It would be accurately considered true damage if it really impeded its function and usefullness. But I cannot in all honesty see a less amount of sensitivity in my penis to be the result of a truely "damaging" or "mutilating" procedure. Its an unnecessary alteration that should be stopped I admit, however, I cannot see it as truely "mutilating" or "damaging" operation.

Well, Icehawk does this mean you support clitorectomies?
Idiot, no I do not :roll: , None of my posts have mentioned any support for male or female circumcision and my first post makes it quite clear that I do not support it. Try reading next time. Im simply arguing that having an already circumcized dick is in all reality not such a big deal to get worked up over.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Im just saying that the word "damage" doesnt seem to be a very accurate term for something so minor. Its "damage" but its not real damage. It would be accurately considered true damage if it really impeded its function and usefullness. But I cannot in all honesty see a less amount of sensitivity in my penis to be the result of a truely "damaging" or "mutilating" procedure. Its an unnecessary alteration that should be stopped I admit, however, I cannot see it as truely "mutilating" or "damaging" operation.
Well I don't understand why you would feel this way, but it is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I just don't understand why you wouldn't rather have the OPTION of discovering what having a foreskin would have been like if it had been left alone, but also the increased sexual pleasure that was supposed to have been yours from birth.

Oh, and like I had said earlier, it CAN have an impeding effect on function and usefullness later in life. It gets worse. Of course by then your sex drive is much lower, so you might not care, but still....
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Icehawk I ask because the only justifications you offer up for male circumcision can be used to defend female curcumcision, it's just you havent been brought up to believe in it. :roll:

After all, cutting bits off isnt damaging it's changing!
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Icehawk I ask because the only justifications you offer up for male circumcision can be used to defend female curcumcision, it's just you havent been brought up to believe in it.
Well...In Icehawks defense, it would depend on the type of clitorodectomy. Removing the entire clitoris would be akin to the whole head of your dick being removed. But there are some that only remove the hood that covers it. this would be SOMEWHAT analogous, but still not exactly because of the sheer amount of inner skin that is present on a circumsized male.

From what I understand the hood of the clitoris simply retracts, and although it keeps it moist, (like the head and inner foreskin on a man is supposed to be as well, they are actually the same type of tissue as the mucosa in your mouth), it doesn't have much to do with primary sensitivity.

However, the simple fact is that they ARE still the same damn thing. It should not be legal for either sex. A person's body should be sacrosanct from such foolishness unless personally desired, and obviously it should be at a reasonable age to decide like after puberty when you might first start USING it.
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Post by GoldenFalcon »

I was nearly circumcized...good thing I wasn't.

Anyway, try imagine getting kicked in that area during a bar brawl.
Imagine the result when circumcised, and then imagine the result when uncircumcised. Granted, it'll still hurt like hell, but there is a big difference in terms of the aftereffects.
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Post by Icehawk »

Icehawk I ask because the only justifications you offer up for male circumcision can be used to defend female curcumcision, it's just you havent been brought up to believe in it.
I havent been brought up to "believe" in male circumcision either. :roll:

From what little I have heard about clitoridectomies, the proceedure is done specifically for the reason of removing a females sexual pleasure and I thought it was said they generally have more serious health effects on females who get it. Correct me if im wrong, but this seems to be completely different from male circumcision.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Icehawk wrote:
Icehawk I ask because the only justifications you offer up for male circumcision can be used to defend female curcumcision, it's just you havent been brought up to believe in it.
I havent been brought up to "believe" in male circumcision either. :roll:

From what little I have heard about clitoridectomies, the proceedure is done specifically for the reason of removing a females sexual pleasure and I thought it was said they generally have more serious health effects on females who get it. Correct me if im wrong, but this seems to be completely different from male circumcision.
No, its stupid ass religious reasons, just the same as it is in the US, just one is traditional there, the other isnt....go figure.

Also, how to you work out how much sensitivity you've lost?
You dont know what it would have been like with an intact foreskin, so how can you know that the loss is minimal...really, you are a product of a stupid society. :roll:
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Also, how to you work out how much sensitivity you've lost?
You dont know what it would have been like with an intact foreskin, so how can you know that the loss is minimal...
That's an excellent point. I've based most of my personal reasons for decrying it on the stories I've read about people who HAD it and then lost it later. They made it clear to me, some on a one to one basis, how dramatic the difference was and how they wish they could have it back.

I don't know whether I should consider myself luckier than them because I don't know what I'm missing, but I know damn well I wish I had the fucking chance to find out. :evil:
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Post by Icehawk »

Also, how to you work out how much sensitivity you've lost?
You dont know what it would have been like with an intact foreskin, so how can you know that the loss is minimal...really, you are a product of a stupid society.
First of all, I never said anything about the loss being "minimal" nor have I even claimed to know how much loss their is at all. You see, the thing is, because my dick works fine, looks good, and has plenty of sensitivity as it is, I JUST DONT FUCKING CARE about whatever I have lost from being circumsized. It could be alot, it could be a little, I just dont care. Of course it would be nice to have more, just like it would be nice to win the lottery and have lots of money to indulge myself with, but again, its not a big issue that im going to ever lose any sleep over. If my dick was truely damaged or if it lost all sensitivity due to circumcision, then yes their would be a problem, but thats not the way it is.
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Post by NapoleonGH »

all i know is if i enjoyed sexual activity and orgasm any more than I already do then i would NEVER get any work done and never do anything but chase girls, so i really dont see a problem with having been circumsized, and better that it was done before I was old enough to remember the pain
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Post by Justforfun000 »

all i know is if i enjoyed sexual activity and orgasm any more than I already do then i would NEVER get any work done and never do anything but chase girls, so i really dont see a problem with having been circumsized, and better that it was done before I was old enough to remember the pain
While I'm glad that not everyone is traumatized or inconsolable about being circumcised against their will, I'm a little disturbed about the general tone I see coming through from the ones who aren't personally bothered by their own status. When you say such things like "I don't see a problem with having been circumcised", and "better it was done before I was old enough to remember the pain", it conveys an attitude of it not being that big a deal because to YOU it's not.

The bigger issue here is that other people DO feel like it's a big deal, and if other men brush off the issue as irrelevant, then they are condoning this practice as opposed to condemning.

The bottom line here is that it is a completely unnecessary procedure that strips a male of the full sexual satisfaction that they were designed to have by nature. PERIOD. Without a valid medical reason, this should be decried as being child abuse. Irreversible at that.

Just be aware that indifference to an issue is almost the same as tacitly endorsing it.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Just be aware that indifference to an issue is almost the same as tacitly endorsing it.
That was not worded correctly. I should qualify that to mean an issue that CONCERNS you, and I mean that not in the whether you care way, but the fact you are involved due to circumstance way.
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Post by darthdavid »

Un-Circed and fucking glad. And furthermore, how could anyone NOT!!! want more pleasure?
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Post by Howedar »

I don't see that it's a big deal either way, but with no benefit I see absolutely no reason to carry out the procedure.
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Post by MarkIX »

Un-Circed and fucking glad. And furthermore, how could anyone NOT!!! want more pleasure?
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I think you will find That a lot of people defend Circumcision not because they agree that it is a good idea but just because they are circumcised and see it as a personal attack. If you say that circumcision is bad, that means they are less of a man than someone who is uncircumcised blows to the ego are always vigourously defended against.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Justforfun000 wrote:
all i know is if i enjoyed sexual activity and orgasm any more than I already do then i would NEVER get any work done and never do anything but chase girls, so i really dont see a problem with having been circumsized, and better that it was done before I was old enough to remember the pain
While I'm glad that not everyone is traumatized or inconsolable about being circumcised against their will, I'm a little disturbed about the general tone I see coming through from the ones who aren't personally bothered by their own status. When you say such things like "I don't see a problem with having been circumcised", and "better it was done before I was old enough to remember the pain", it conveys an attitude of it not being that big a deal because to YOU it's not.

The bigger issue here is that other people DO feel like it's a big deal, and if other men brush off the issue as irrelevant, then they are condoning this practice as opposed to condemning.

The bottom line here is that it is a completely unnecessary procedure that strips a male of the full sexual satisfaction that they were designed to have by nature. PERIOD. Without a valid medical reason, this should be decried as being child abuse. Irreversible at that.

Just be aware that indifference to an issue is almost the same as tacitly endorsing it.
In other words, if people don't agree with your opinion, they're obviously stupid. :roll: Let's see here...
Justforfun000 wrote:What do you think?
Well, people told you what they thought, and now you're attacking them for it. Looks like baiting to me. If you want opinions and ask for them, you should expect to get them and some of them will differ from yours. Its bad form to solicit someone's opinion and then attack him for it. (Someone presses their opinion on you and you don't like it, go ahead. But you did ask for it in this case, so don't be surprised when you get it.)
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Post by ukamikazu »

Tom_Aurum wrote:I was hearing one time on NPR about an actual scientific study comparing African HIV patterns and US HIV patterns. And it seems that the only societal difference that they had been really able to single out that kept people in the U.S. safer was... circumcision. So there's one strike against it being bullshit. Of course, that's just their opinion, they could be wrong.
That particular study and others like it have been shown to be flawed.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

I'm rather loosely circed, but they didn't take much and the frenulum's intact. I still wish I was uncut... :)

ukamikazu wrote:
Tom_Aurum wrote:I was hearing one time on NPR about an actual scientific study comparing African HIV patterns and US HIV patterns. And it seems that the only societal difference that they had been really able to single out that kept people in the U.S. safer was... circumcision. So there's one strike against it being bullshit. Of course, that's just their opinion, they could be wrong.
That particular study and others like it have been shown to be flawed.
Don't expect him to listen. BTW cute av :)
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Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

I don't believe I've ever brought it up with my parents, but when I found out that the "health concerns" were bullshit a few years ago by reading Mike's Creationism vs. Science page, I was seriously pissed. To think that I could have been having way better sex... GRRR :banghead:
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Post by InnerBrat »

Rogue 9 wrote:-snip-
Where's this proof you promised that male gential mutiliation prevents HIV, Rogue?

Saurencaerthai: This girl prefers something to play with when she's down there. Half my favourite tricks would be impossible to perform w/o a foreskin...
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Post by Rogue 9 »

I didn't promise a thing. What the hell are you talking about? I have not rendered an opinion either way in this thread, and in the one in the N&P forum I said I vaguely remembered reading it and would see if I could find anything on it. I have not, so I could not deliver the links. You'll note that I said "I'll see if I can find anything," not "I'll be right back with the links."
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Post by Darth Wong »

Icehawk wrote:First of all, I never said anything about the loss being "minimal" nor have I even claimed to know how much loss their is at all.
You're a fucking liar. Just a few posts ago, you said:
Icehawk flip-flopping wrote:Im just saying that the word "damage" doesnt seem to be a very accurate term for something so minor. Its "damage" but its not real damage.
So yes, you did claim to know how much loss there is, because you insisted that it is "so minor". How would you know how "minor" it is if you don't know its magnitude, dumb-fuck?

And the rest of your argument is that you don't care as long as your dick basically works. By that imbecilic token, we might as well scratch up your cornea because you'll still be able to see afterwards.
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Post by MarkIX »

InnerBrat wrote: This girl prefers something to play with when she's down there. Half my favourite tricks would be impossible to perform w/o a foreskin...
Damn :(
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Post by Broomstick »

Boys, folks just go round and round on this whole circumcism thing...

Let's look at a few issues:

It's "cleaner" - only if you don't believe in soap and water. C'mon, if we can teach a young boy to wash his ears and wipe his own ass we can teach him to peel back his foreskin and wash his dick. Hell, he might even learn to enjoy touching himself. If it's not clean I have to ask what other bodyparts the boy ain't washin' - because it's a hygiene problem, not a sexual problem or disease. It's the equivalent of dirty fingernails - which can harbor some very nasty pathogens if you don't clean 'em. So we teach kids to scrape under their nails, we don't remove their nails. Ditto for foreskins.

Women prefer it - this is strictly cultural conditioning. It's like the days of Chinese foot binding when men thought broken, half-rotted feet were sexier and more feminine than healthy natural feet. I'm sure there were Chinese men who honestly preferred the "lotus foot" and found it beautiful. That doesn't mean it was good for the women who were damaged by the custom.

But as I said, this is cultural conditioning. If all the penises a woman ever saw were uncut, and she saw one that was cut, her first reaction would probably be to ask if the man had been in some unfortunate accident.

The "cleaner" myth plays into this. I mean, think about it - which would you have inserted into your body? Something clean or something seething with germs? If a woman prefers cut dicks there's a good chance you'll also find this "cleaner" myth.

Risks of circumcism - well, aside from being cut too "tight" and interference with both masturbation and sexual sensitivity already mentioned, botched circumcisms do occur. One of the more famous cases involved one of a set of twins whose dick was burned off by inept electrocautery. For the full story of the ramifications see As Nature Made Him by John Colapinto. Most of the time, botched circs don't go quite that bad, but it's still a problem of an unnecessary procedure giving bad results, whether that's infection, scarring, or pain and suffering.

Risks of not circumcising - we've already covered the hygiene issue. Other things can happen, such as strangulation of the penis by the foreskin. Since pictures speak louder than words, scroll down in this following link but !!!WARNING!!! boys and girls, it is a graphic depiction of a serious medical condition and treatment, and gets a little bloody: http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic2874.htm

About female "circumcism" - the best book I've read on this is The Female Circumcism Controvery by Ellen Gruenbaum. Just to clarify matters a bit - removing a woman's clitoris is NOT equivalent to male circumcism, it's more like removing a man's entire penis. Removing just the clitoris might kill a woman's ability to achieve orgasm, but it probably wouldn't screw her up urologically, and she'd still be able to have sex (just not enjoy it nearly as much) and bear children with little hardship - BUT it's never JUST the clitoris. This procedure is usually accompanied by other things, like removing of the labia or even sewing up of the vaginia (infibulation) which, in the unmarried, gives a women an opening the size of a soda straw to piss and menstruate through. THAT's what starts causing infections, smell, and gynecological problems. Upon marriage, such a women is sliced open enough for intercourse. By now, there's a ridge of scar tissue around the opening. When she gets pregnant, that scar tissue won't stretch like normal skin is supposed to in that region - she will have to be cut open even further, then sewn back up again afterward. Rinse and repeat for every child. Keep in mind, in parts of the world where this is common practice it's not unusual for women to have 8 or 12 children. And, oh yes, anesthesia is usually not available. It's a little more extreme than foreskin removal.

Why and when circumcism is done - Jews want it done on the 8th day after birth, in the synagogue. Hospital circumcism is NOT a Jewish practice, and circumcism is not done to Jewish boys in a Jewish hospital.

Moslems prefer to circumcise young boys at around 12. Whether this is religious dictate or Middle Eastern/North African custom I don't know.

Other cultures also circumcize young boys/men as an adolescent rite of passage.

The United States custom is to do this in the hospital between birth and going home. Prior to hospital birth being the norm, infant circumcism didn't exist. It was NOT the result of having Jewish doctors - Jews don't give a damn what gentiles do or don't do with their genitals. The custom arose from some of the more outlandish health fads of the late 19th Century and was promoted as a means to discourage masturbation.. So the origin is not in "Jewish doctors" but in Protestants who felt sex was dirty and bad and wanted to discourage all forms of it. Also as being more "hygenic". Given that people did bathe considerably less frequently back then, maybe it was - I'd still vote for more liberal use of soap and water.

Personally, I'd like to see the custom die out. There will always be a few men circumcised for legitimate medical reasons, but that's justifiable in my mind. I expect it will also continue for religious reaons as well in some cases. Given the far worse problems in the world I can tolerate that, even if I don't approve.
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