The real (best approximation) size of the Imperial Starfleet

[thecreech]

Before anyone else can say it

He’s as clumsy as he is stupid

LOL bravo!

[Patrick Ogaard]

Didn't Vader establish that the Tantive Iv was not a diplomatic ship? In fact, Leia said it was diplomatic ship in order to fool Darth Vader, when she knew that there was no Ambassador on board the ship. The ship was from Alderaan and it was part of the Rebel Alliance. As far as it not being armed... Perhaps you are blind and did not see the little red turbolaser blasts coming from the Tantive IV when the Star Destroyer was chasing it? You should be careful who you call a moron.

No. She was the fucking ambassador. Vader proved she was lying by saying she was on no "mission of mercy". Nothing more.

Your attempts to twist canon are quite pathetic.

Motion seconded and carried.

As a member of the Republic Senate, Leia should, if the Senate worked anything like a real world national legislative body, have enjoyed at least limited legal immunity. That would mesh reasonably well with being an ambassador, as a Senator of the Republic apparently represented an entire sector that could contain dozens of full member worlds and hundreds of less developed worlds. An Imperial vessel attacking and boarding a Senator's vessel without approval of the Senate would be an obvious scandal. That would be why Vader had the entire affair hushed up and put out disinformation to the effect that the ship had been lost in an accident with all aboard killed.

As for the weaponry, the Galactic Empire is a big place that's mostly empty. Pirates and slavers operate even in the heavily patrolled and seriously anal-retentive Corporate Sector. This is a sector government that keeps Victory Star Destroyers as orbital pickets around major worlds and has corvette-sized Security Police attack ships board or destroy any ships deviating from approved flight paths. That means that no sector of the galaxy is entirely safe, and a pair of dual turbolaser batteries would be an obvious precaution to discourage pirates and those political rivals that might pose as pirates.

[Guest]

I don't see why it is so hard for you people to believe that Princess Leia was travelling on a military vessel from a planet (Alderaan) that was supporting and organizing the rebellion against the Empire.

I know that many of you nerds probably don't have anything better to do than jack off while watching a Star Wars movie, but please try to keep the debate sensible.

I normally don't like to insult, but some of you pinheads were never taught how to speak to people politely, even in debate.

Like a I said in another post, if you feel so strongly about the Empire you need to see a shrink.

[SirNitram]

Hur Hur Hur u r funi!

Idiot.

Leia: You can't, we have no weapons!

Gee, doesn't sound like the words of someone on a defensive vessel, does it? But I suppose you are going to continue your total idiocy and trolling. Jeez. What are you, some Jock who finally concussed himself enough to figure out how to type?

[thecreech]

I don't see why it is so hard for you people to believe that Princess Leia was travelling on a military vessel from a planet (Alderaan) that was supporting and organizing the rebellion against the Empire.

I know that many of you nerds probably don't have anything better to do than jack off while watching a Star Wars movie, but please try to keep the debate sensible.

I normally don't like to insult, but some of you pinheads were never taught how to speak to people politely, even in debate.

Like a I said in another post, if you feel so strongly about the Empire you need to see a shrink.

Well you need to realize that we have heard this argument a million times and it gets old, your argument has been debunked many times b4 you even brought it up here... give it up and move on to something else and if you don't like it no one is holding a gun to your head to post here

[Imperial Federation]

I don't see why it is so hard for you people to believe that Princess Leia was travelling on a military vessel from a planet (Alderaan) that was supporting and organizing the rebellion against the Empire.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that it isn't?
Everything says that it is, YOU are the only one claiming otherwise.
That they were on a mission to give the Death Star plans to the Rebellion is why Vader said they were lying, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a diplomatic ship.

I know that many of you nerds probably don't have anything better to do than jack off while watching a Star Wars movie, but please try to keep the debate sensible.

Why keep the debate sensible with an idiot who dismisses all evidence that doesn't convene him?

I normally don't like to insult, but some of you pinheads were never taught how to speak to people politely, even in debate.

Maybe everybody would speak politely if your arguments weren't all so half-assed.

Like a I said in another post, if you feel so strongly about the Empire you need to see a shrink.

So tell me, why do you feel so strongly about the Empire having only a few ships, despite all the canon and official evidence that says otherwise?

[Guest]

I suppose it never occurred to you that she may have been lying. If I were a retarded piece of shit I would attempt to make the noises you tried to type, but I'm not you.

[SirNitram]

I suppose it never occurred to you that she may have been lying. If I were a retarded piece of shit I would attempt to make the noises you tried to type, but I'm not you.

Scathing! Tell me, does it take a long time for your two brain cells to bang together and produce a thought?

Of course she's lying. Her ship is full of marines with blasters. However, it is not a combat vessel, as seen by how quickly it was disabled, captured, and breached by the Empire's forces. Of course, recignizing the difference between a courier ship and a battleship requires a working brain and an IQ above ten, so we understand you don't understand things my 4 year old cousin understands when watching the movie.

[Imperial Federation]

I suppose it never occurred to you that she may have been lying. If I were a retarded piece of shit I would attempt to make the noises you tried to type, but I'm not you.

Why the hell would she be lying?
And if she was, wouldn't the Empire bloody well KNOW if Alderaan was armed?

The EU says Alderaan was a disarmed planet, which fits into what's said in the movie, and if you don't like that, too bad, go cry somewhere else.

[Mr Bean]

I know that many of you nerds probably don't have anything better to do than jack off while watching a Star Wars movie, but please try to keep the debate sensible.

This is boys and Girls know as a Logic Fallasy, Idiots make em, And its up to you to point it out to them
This one is called an Ad-Homean attack, It means to insult the person rather than confront the aurgment, OR to attack the personal life of the person in an attempted to try and discredit a person

Notice how instead of acutaly responing to the aurgments he insteads insults the people opposing him and ininuates that they are in need of Psycholgical Attention

In formal printed Circumstances this would be grounds for the insulted to sue for Libal, However as this is mearly a message board there is a great deal more relaxted atteidue for example to me calling LeoRoy here a dumb ass motherfucker, I can get away with that and so can you but only if you bother to inculde WHY he's a dumb-ass mothefucker, Now to be honset I do have quite a bit of information that he is a dumb person and he has proven himself already to be ass like, However there is not evidance for the motherfucking so I will drop that and simply refer to him from now on as Dumb-ass

Furthermore onto the main point a Military Vessel tends not to be a private ship, Infact we know from source-books(But you don't pay attention to those do you?) that Leia's Ship was a Personal one, a Gift from the Senate for her hard work before this point. But truely its a symantical point because even then is either goverment proptery or a personal possesion.

[jegs2]

I don't see why it is so hard for you people to believe that Princess Leia was travelling on a military vessel from a planet (Alderaan) that was supporting and organizing the rebellion against the Empire.

I know that many of you nerds probably don't have anything better to do than jack off while watching a Star Wars movie, but please try to keep the debate sensible.

I normally don't like to insult, but some of you pinheads were never taught how to speak to people politely, even in debate.

Like a I said in another post, if you feel so strongly about the Empire you need to see a shrink.

The ship in which the princess was had red markings. If you've read the books pertaining to markings, you would know that those were diplomatic markings. Was Leia a spy instead of a diplomat? Well, she was both, though not a diplomat for the Empire, but instead for the Rebels. Vader knew this, for he was no idiot, and Imperial intelligence had intercepted transmissions indicating the extent of Leia's support to the insurgents. That made her a traitor to the Empire, and worse yet, she used a diplomatic ship acting in the name of the Imperial Senate to support her in her subversive activities.

Insofar as our interest in all things Star Wars and our determination to be accurate, it is our hobby. I am a military officer, and I'm sure most others on this board have their own professions. We participate in these debates, because we enjoy debating about SW. As for those who insult you, I would advise the following: You are insulted only if you choose to feel insulted. If you feel that what others say to you is not true, then don't worry, just drive on.

[Mr Bean]

Don't forget he Ignores EU, In a Debate if we compare this to a Trial it would look somthing like this



Judge: And today's Trial of Mr-Killalot will be done under NEW RULES!
Proscution:What Rules?
Judge:Simple, If it is picture or a series of them or on paper you can't use it!
Proscution: So the Video Tape of the six people being killed plus the signed Confession?
Judge: Yep and none of your Phyiscal Exbits either because they are on paper!
Proscution: If I take them off?
Judge: To late, After all what are Videos and Phyiscial Evidance compare to eye-witnesses?
Prosecution:We don't have any, he killed them all
Judge: ooh to bad for you




This reminds me alot of the Stormy on Foot Verses the E-D debate awhile back

[Ender]

I don't see why it is so hard for you people to believe that Princess Leia was travelling on a military vessel from a planet (Alderaan) that was supporting and organizing the rebellion against the Empire.

It is hard to believe she was on a military vessel from Alderaan because Alderann DOESN'T HAVE A FUCKING MILITARY.

"NO! Alderaan is peaceful!"

I know that many of you nerds probably don't have anything better to do than jack off while watching a Star Wars movie, but please try to keep the debate sensible.

So in addition to being an idiot, you are also a hypocrite, as you mock us for debating this stuff but you started this thread.

I think we need Kyrnes to start a few more fan clubs.

[Stravo]

Leia: "No, Alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons!"

Tarkin: "You prefer another target a MILITARY target? Then name the system!"


I think that its pretty clear in a VERY CANON exchange in the film NOT EU speculation or manuals or sourcebooks, etc that Alderaan has NO WEAPONS is a disarmed planet therefore no idependent fleet THUS the Tantive was not part of the Alderaan military...why? BECAUSE ALDERAAN HAD NO MILITARY and that is STRAIGHT FROM CANON so please stop the fucking nonsense.

[Guest]

I am going to post a quote from the Novelization of The Return of the Jedi, written by James Kahn.

"It gave Luke a momentary sadness but then Leia took his hand, and drew him back close to her and to the others, back into their circle of warmth, and camaraderie; and love.

The EMPIRE WAS DEAD.
LONG LIVE THE ALLIANCE."

Did everyone read those last two sentences??? According to the novelization of ROTJ,which is superior to any of the EU crap, the Empire was dead. Everything else is fantasy bs supported by the minions of Star Wars who want their fix of Star Wars. The OT and the new movies are great, but EU should be purged.

This should settle any debate about the existence of the Empire after ROTJ. If that doesn't convince you than nothing will and I won't post on this topic again because you are all blind fools.

[Imperial Federation]

I am going to post a quote from the Novelization of The Return of the Jedi, written by James Kahn.

"It gave Luke a momentary sadness but then Leia took his hand, and drew him back close to her and to the others, back into their circle of warmth, and camaraderie; and love.

The EMPIRE WAS DEAD.
LONG LIVE THE ALLIANCE."

Did everyone read those last two sentences??? According to the novelization of ROTJ,which is superior to any of the EU crap, the Empire was dead. Everything else is fantasy bs supported by the minions of Star Wars who want their fix of Star Wars. The OT and the new movies are great, but EU should be purged.

This should settle any debate about the existence of the Empire after ROTJ. If that doesn't convince you than nothing will and I won't post on this topic again because you are all blind fools.

Utter bullshit!
One line which sounds more like a Rebel victory cheer is supposed to nullify everything else?
I'm sure you're proud of your silly little "Silver Bullet" argument, because no one else is.

[Ender]

I am going to post a quote from the Novelization of The Return of the Jedi, written by James Kahn.

"It gave Luke a momentary sadness but then Leia took his hand, and drew him back close to her and to the others, back into their circle of warmth, and camaraderie; and love.

The EMPIRE WAS DEAD.
LONG LIVE THE ALLIANCE."

Did everyone read those last two sentences??? According to the novelization of ROTJ,which is superior to any of the EU crap, the Empire was dead.

Except for the dozen's of Star Destroyers that retreated and were not destroyed. And the thousands indicated by Han's ANH quote that were never present. And all the troops on other planets (IE Tattooine). And all the commanders of these troops.

Head was gone, but the Empire was far from dead.

If that doesn't convince you than nothing will and I won't post on this topic again because you are all blind fools.

How about you go one better and never post here again period.

And I love how you cowardly dodge the Princess Leia argument after we beat the hell out of it. Concession accepted.

[Howedar]

I propose VI status.

[Vertigo1]

I am going to post a quote from the Novelization of The Return of the Jedi, written by James Kahn.

"It gave Luke a momentary sadness but then Leia took his hand, and drew him back close to her and to the others, back into their circle of warmth, and camaraderie; and love.

The EMPIRE WAS DEAD.
LONG LIVE THE ALLIANCE."

Did everyone read those last two sentences??? According to the novelization of ROTJ,which is superior to any of the EU crap, the Empire was dead. Everything else is fantasy bs supported by the minions of Star Wars who want their fix of Star Wars. The OT and the new movies are great, but EU should be purged.

This should settle any debate about the existence of the Empire after ROTJ. If that doesn't convince you than nothing will and I won't post on this topic again because you are all blind fools.

Just because palpy died doesn't mean the Empire is dead. Thats like someone killing the President of the United States. Someone will replace him, and all will be well in relative short order. Furthermore, if the Empire is dead, then why did the NR strike a peace deal with them? I suppose Thrawn didn't really control imperial vessels, but mercs in stolen imperial uniforms working imperial technology like a real imp would be trained to.

[consequences]

Actually, someone killing Palpy is more like an assassination of a military dictator like Saddam Hussein; if there isn't anyone strong enough to outright take over, then the entire system self destructs, but not instantly.
In any case, repeated personal attacks aren't necesary, or helpful. If the target is not someone to be rejected as a candidate for Down's Syndrome because their observed intelligence is too low, then the first such post will be met with a rebuttal that attempts to deny the premise that the target is living proof that natural selection no longer fuctions in our society. If the individual in question is incapable of some sort of decent defense, then further personal attacks will be futile, and therefore should not be conducted unless you want to be accused of being the same grade of imbecile.

[Aaron2]

The CANON Radio Drama (yes, it's canon) states that the imperial forces at Endor are the local Sector Fleet. If you have a million systems (canon) in 1000+ sectors (extracted assumption based on canon - the senat chamber in TPM), then 25,000 star destroyers fits quite well with the size of the endor fleet.

I wish Palpatine had said "the sector fleet" instead of "our sector fleet" as the latter might imply that it was from another, more important, sector.

Interstingly, that same radio drama refers to the rebel fleet that attacked the second death star as the "total resources of the rebel alliance". The alliance was weaker than I thought.

Aaron

[Vympel]

Interstingly, that same radio drama refers to the rebel fleet that attacked the second death star as the "total resources of the rebel alliance". The alliance was weaker than I thought

This is purely my interpretation of course but I think its well-reasoned- I don't think it was the Rebel Alliance per se that was ever a huge threat to the Empire. The entire Original Trilogy is ALL ABOUT LUKE.

- Death Star plans delivered to Alliance: Luke Skywalker
- Destruction of Death Star: Luke Skywalker

The destruction of the Death Star was not the work of the Rebel Alliance at all. It was the work of someone who was so strong in the Force that he could fire proton torpedoes through a 3m wide shaft (impossible for the targeting computers of the X-Wing) and stay alive for more than two seconds in the sights of the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy and Sith Lord Darth Vader.

The Emperor, and Darth Vader, notice this. Following the Battle of Yavin it was NEVER about the Rebel Alliance at all in my opinion. It was all about catching Darth Vader's son. With Luke Skywalker working for the Rebels, Vader and the Emperor knew that they were vulnerable:

"HE COULD DESTROY US"- The Emperor in Empire Strikes Back.

The trap at Endor was set up for both Luke and the Rebels- but make no mistake it was mostly for Luke: watching the Alliance fleet get annihilated and knowing that his friends on Endor were walking into a trap- it was all designed to get him sufficiently angry to try to strike the Emperor down. And it almost worked.

[Guest]

I have decided to post another response just to drive home the fact that the Imperial Fleet was not as large as many of you are trying to say. First, I want to respond to the comment that the fleet at Endor was the local sector fleet. Even if the Imperial Fleet at Endor was the local sector fleet, didn't anyone consider that the Empire just might strengthen the local fleet due to the fact that the most important project in Imperial history was being made there??? I find it amazing that some of you try to use the 23 Star Destroyers located there as a base for all of the sectors in the Galaxy. To me,that sounds completely unreasonable.

I have another important point. Does anyone remember when Obi-wan told Han Solo that the Empire destroyed Alderaan? Did anyone catch what Han Solo said after Obi-wan said that? I suggest all of you who disagree with me to re-watch ANH. If you don't want to, I'll tell you what Han Solo said:

"The entire Starfleet (Imperial for those of you who don't get it yet) couldn't destroy the whole planet. It would take A THOUSAND ships with more firepower than I've..."

As I recall the canon rules for this website, if something in the movies contradicts what the lame EU books say the movies have precedence. Hm... If you still want to argue this point by calling me a moron, dumbass, motherfucker, idiot, etc... You are also calling Han Solo and George Lucas those same words, because I am just arguing what is stated in the movies! I don't expect most of you to get it, because you many of you have demonstrated how ignorant and stupid you really are. If it wasn't for the reasonable responses of some of the members of this forum I would have given up hope for stardestroyer.net's discussion boards. You can't twist science (Wong's calculations etc...) into science fiction because they are not the same thing. I don't think GL cares how many Star Destroyers can be made instead of a Death Star. GL cared about giving the Imperials a superweapon because that is how he wanted to make the story. We have to remember that the Star Wars galaxy was relatively pascifist for thousands of years. It was only during the Clone Wars that militarization occurred. That being the case, an Imperial Fleet of a thousand ships would be very powerful! All I am asking is that you look past the EU and think about the movies from a fresh perspective. Don't worry though, I'm not counting on it.

[SirNitram]

Well, Solo is directly contradicted in the movie, by General Dodonna. Anyone who was actually debating reasonably and honestly would remember that.

[Imperial Federation]

I have decided to post another response just to drive home the fact that the Imperial Fleet was not as large as many of you are trying to say. First, I want to respond to the comment that the fleet at Endor was the local sector fleet. Even if the Imperial Fleet at Endor was the local sector fleet, didn't anyone consider that the Empire just might strengthen the local fleet due to the fact that the most important project in Imperial history was being made there??? I find it amazing that some of you try to use the 23 Star Destroyers located there as a base for all of the sectors in the Galaxy. To me,that sounds completely unreasonable.

Right, your stupid assumptions outweigh the train of evidence going the other way, eh?
Get this in your head: IT WAS A TRAP!!
The local sector fleet was large enough to trap the Rebels and small enough to go undetected.

I have another important point. Does anyone remember when Obi-wan told Han Solo that the Empire destroyed Alderaan? Did anyone catch what Han Solo said after Obi-wan said that? I suggest all of you who disagree with me to re-watch ANH. If you don't want to, I'll tell you what Han Solo said:

"The entire Starfleet (Imperial for those of you who don't get it yet) couldn't destroy the whole planet. It would take A THOUSAND ships with more firepower than I've..."

Right, an off-hand quote by a space-pirate in a moment of shock is more important than what more qualified people have to say. Idiot.

As I recall the canon rules for this website, if something in the movies contradicts what the lame EU books say the movies have precedence. Hm... If you still want to argue this point by calling me a moron, dumbass, motherfucker, idiot, etc... You are also calling Han Solo and George Lucas those same words, because I am just arguing what is stated in the movies!

No, you are misinterpreting and twisting events in the movies to suit yourself, that is why people call you a dumbass, dumbass.

I don't expect most of you to get it, because you many of you have demonstrated how ignorant and stupid you really are. If it wasn't for the reasonable responses of some of the members of this forum I would have given up hope for stardestroyer.net's discussion boards. You can't twist science (Wong's calculations etc...) into science fiction because they are not the same thing.

Blah blah blah, logical fallacies ahoy.

I don't think GL cares how many Star Destroyers can be made instead of a Death Star. GL cared about giving the Imperials a superweapon because that is how he wanted to make the story. We have to remember that the Star Wars galaxy was relatively pascifist for thousands of years. It was only during the Clone Wars that militarization occurred. That being the case, an Imperial Fleet of a thousand ships would be very powerful! All I am asking is that you look past the EU and think about the movies from a fresh perspective. Don't worry though, I'm not counting on it.

Right, look past evidence because it doesn't suit you. Give me a break.
The Empire is a dictatorship, ruling at least a million systems with 25,000 Star Destroyers is the bare minimum!
This society can almost complete a Death Star in six months, have trillions of citizens and millions of systems to control, give me one reason why they can't or won't field such a fleet.