Palpatine's crimes

[Havok]

So in order for the Jedi to be "good" they would have to violate the laws and disregard the morals of different governments/societies so that it fits with how you think things should be? OK.
I guess that makes the Federation Lawful Evil too.

Your whole post is full of shit.

[Zwinmar]

Nope, they would have to follow their own morals and ethics. Which they do not.


As to full of shit; of course I am and so are you but that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
As an organization the UFP seems more bent toward the lawful neutral with leanings toward neural good.

[Tiriol]

The willingness to 1.) enforce the law of a particular planet/sector regardless of conflict with morals or the conundrum of the cost of sentient life (e.g. Qui-Gon nominally supporting the slave system of the Hutts and willing to work with it though it is nominally illegal), 2.) willingness to take children by trickery, if not by outright theft, 3.) The willingness to compromise their own values even after a century or millennium.

At best their dogma and emotional detachment indicates a neutral stance as they will enforce the law regardless of consequence, at worst they will enforce the law despite the moral and ethical questions.

It seems to me that because the Jedi Order took law as their highest priority at the expense of everything else. What it comes down to is that both factions (Jedi and Sith) are all about power by any means, only their methods vary, leaving exceptions for individuals of course. Jedi are about power for their organization while the Sith is about power for self. If Yoda had cared to actually worry about other sentient beings and not his organization then conceivably he would have been able to actually see what was going on around him rather then be oblivious to what Dooku, and undoubtedly others like him, said. Rather than investigate why they left the Order the ones that left or had different ideological views were systematically hunted down and destroyed.

1) So the Jedi Order should proclaim themselves arbiters of morality and enforce their particular view of ethics and morality upon others? And how did did Qui-Gon indicate that he supported the slave system of the Hutts, when he clearly found the Hutts dangerous and their practices distasteful? And slavery is not illegal in the Hutt Space according to the EU; and it's also clear in the movies that the Republic is unable to enforce its own laws and its wall upon outlying worlds, so the Hutts do whatever they please (and the Trade Federation, for that matter). Qui-Gon cannot bring down the entire Hutt establishment by all of his own.

2) Where the Jedi have taken children by trickery and theft?

3) How did the Jedi compromise their own values?

Your claim about the Jedi wanting power for themselves (as in Order) seems to be peculiar. At no point they speak of such thing (even when Mace Windu thought of coup d'etat, he clearly wanted to just cleanse the Senate from the Sith influence and return the actual rulership of the Republic to the Senate once the Sith threat was purged) or even indicate such thing - even Master Windu didn't offer any idea that the Jedi should become generals in the Clone Wars, calling the Jedi "keepers of peace, not soldiers". And out of all Jedi portrayed in the movies he was the most arrogant in many ways, outside of Anakin Skywalker. The Sith, on the other hand, crave power so much that they will unleash a devastating war that will only bring ruin to an entire galaxy in order to secure such power. How do you equate the two?

You also seem to be mixing D&D alignments. Lawful Evil usually means that the person or organization with that alignment is working within the rules to bring about the best possible outcome for himself or for the organization itself without caring at all about the cost for others. That's at their very best; at very worst, Lawful Evil people are tyranny, oppression and unchecked ambition incarnate who can't even feel love or compassion the way we would describe them. I just can't see that applying to any Jedi who hasn't come dangerously close to the dark side or fallen already (Jorus C'baoth comes to my mind). Lawful Neutral is all about respecting traditions and laws and applying them equally; I can see the Jedi Order of the Prequels being like that, although they don't seem to hold anything else than the will of the Force and avoidance of the dark side as absolute rules. They strive to be be Lawful Good (protecting the law and the rules in order to protect the weak and the innocent and working within legal boundaries to end such practices and legislation that are harmful, illegal or unjust) but the PT shows that they have grown complacent and arrogant and as such their ideals have become murky and all too distant. I wouldn't even like to apply any D&D alignments to a Star Wars setting at all, save for very superficial way (for example, to illustrate how the Empire works), since even D&D players debate endlessly on alignment interpretations. It would bring even more madness to Star Wars when there's already the trouble of the nature of the dark side etc.

[Zwinmar]

will post follow up by wednesday, this is finals week so bit busy.

[Arawn Fenn]

willingness to take children by trickery, if not by outright theft

False.

As far as the Jedi wanting power, it should be noted that the Jedi only found themselves in the position they were in during the PT because the practice of having Jedi Chancellors had ceased.

[Havok]

Wat

What EU bullfuckery is this now? Jedi Chancellors? I have to assume comic book and a really long fucking time before the PT.

[Stark]

You have to trust the president not to use his mind powers to get re-elected, Hav. Jedi are pretty honest, right?

[Tiriol]

Wat

What EU bullfuckery is this now? Jedi Chancellors? I have to assume comic book and a really long fucking time before the PT.

About a thousand years before the PT. I don't remember any details, but some Jedi served as the Chancellors and after the Sith crisis was over they stepped down. The next Chancellor was not a Force-user and made the Ruusan Reformation happen (I think he also limited the Jedi Order in some ways and that some limitations were imposed by the Jedi themselves).

[Ralin]

About a thousand years before the PT. I don't remember any details, but some Jedi served as the Chancellors and after the Sith crisis was over they stepped down. The next Chancellor was not a Force-user and made the Ruusan Reformation happen (I think he also limited the Jedi Order in some ways and that some limitations were imposed by the Jedi themselves).

Makes sense. You'd want someone who couldn't be mind-whammied in charge, given the situation.