Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets Questions

[Batman]

Who cares (and note that time travel is not only a tacit admission that WITHOUT it you'd lose, it means nobody is going to care in the timeline you just ran away from because your side STILL lost). This is about Trek as is Vs Wars as is, and Wars as is...wins by a landslide. Maybe-MT phasers and photon torpedoes on Trek capital ships Vs 200GT per shot per gun MTLs on a Clone Wars era troop transport.

[Jake]

I know Wars wins, look at my first post. My point was that, even if we know nothing about either universe, pitting a 300 year old civilization (actually younger than that because the federation was formed around 100 years after the first human warp ship) against a 25,000 year old one should have an obvious result. As for the time travel, you still have to admit that in 600 years time the federation managed to create a very powerful technology that the empire can't even conceive of, even after inheriting 25000 years of progress. Imagine what a 25000 year old federation might be like compared to the empire.

[Ghost Rider]

I know Wars wins, look at my first post. My point was that, even if we know nothing about either universe, pitting a 300 year old civilization (actually younger than that because the federation was formed around 100 years after the first human warp ship) against a 25,000 year old one should have an obvious result. As for the time travel, you still have to admit that in 600 years time the federation managed to create a very powerful technology that the empire can't even conceive of, even after inheriting 25000 years of progress. Imagine what a 25000 year old federation might be like compared to the empire.

Why is time travel impressive if they cannot use it for any reason other then what appears to be some vague possible extra? They have never used it to gain an advantage other then a few points in their own history. They even give the notion that these things are repeateable, they never use it when it would save hundreds, thousands, millions and billions of their own people's lives.

It's as if they can make a cure all for diesases, yet they withhold it except at moments that make no sense except to the people beyond the fourth wall.

[Batman]

I don't know that there has been time travel technology developed somewhere in the EU (though it wouldn't particularly surprise me if it happened), but even so, I wouldn't call a technology that basically allows you to run away and hide in a parallel universe particularly powerful.
And I CAN imagine what a Federation 25,000 years old might be like. It would most likely be EXTINCT thanks to the people running it from the TNG era on being complete morons.
Besides, what the Federation MIGHT become 25,000 years down the line is IRRELEVANT, at least for the Vs debate. The Federation as is gets EATEN.

[Jake]

Why is time travel impressive if they cannot use it for any reason other then what appears to be some vague possible extra? They have never used it to gain an advantage other then a few points in their own history. They even give the notion that these things are repeateable, they never use it when it would save hundreds, thousands, millions and billions of their own people's lives.

It's as if they can make a cure all for diesases, yet they withhold it except at moments that make no sense except to the people beyond the fourth wall.

temporal prime directive

I don't know that there has been time travel technology developed somewhere in the EU (though it wouldn't particularly surprise me if it happened), but even so, I wouldn't call a technology that basically allows you to run away and hide in a parallel universe particularly powerful.

It would solve the problem wouldn't it?

And I CAN imagine what a Federation 25,000 years old might be like. It would most likely be EXTINCT thanks to the people running it from the TNG era on being complete morons.

We don't know if they are still like TNG 600 years later much less 25000. You could also say the same about a species of Rakata slaves that eventually formed a galaxy spanning empire.

Besides, what the Federation MIGHT become 25,000 years down the line is IRRELEVANT, at least for the Vs debate. The Federation as is gets EATEN.

I agree, I was just pointing it out as a possible fanfic idea since the guy obviously likes to write.

[Ghost Rider]

Why is time travel impressive if they cannot use it for any reason other then what appears to be some vague possible extra? They have never used it to gain an advantage other then a few points in their own history. They even give the notion that these things are repeateable, they never use it when it would save hundreds, thousands, millions and billions of their own people's lives.

It's as if they can make a cure all for diesases, yet they withhold it except at moments that make no sense except to the people beyond the fourth wall.

temporal prime directive

Strange they never had any reservations until said event occurs in another series much after many a ballhooed event. I mean to think of doing it BoBW, or hell anytime that the Federation would've saved hundreds to millions of lives!

Thanks for pointing out something that occured later that must affect all of the series because why again? I mean the times we see time fucking around in TNG, there's never a mention of a temporal PD, nor in TOS. So we are retroactively adding it where there is no mention by anyone within that universe of said statement?

[Jake]

Strange they never had any reservations until said event occurs in another series much after many a ballhooed event. I mean to think of doing it BoBW, or hell anytime that the Federation would've saved hundreds to millions of lives!

Thanks for pointing out something that occured later that must affect all of the series because why again? I mean the times we see time fucking around in TNG, there's never a mention of a temporal PD, nor in TOS. So we are retroactively adding it where there is no mention by anyone within that universe of said statement?

Does BoBW mean Best of Both Worlds? I'm no die hard trekkie by any means, but I'm pretty sure there was no time travel involved there.

[Batman]

I don't know that there has been time travel technology developed somewhere in the EU (though it wouldn't particularly surprise me if it happened), but even so, I wouldn't call a technology that basically allows you to run away and hide in a parallel universe particularly powerful.

It would solve the problem wouldn't it?

Err-no. It would merely mean the people doing the time-travelling would be spared the consequences of it. Which would probably be a worthwhile undertaking from the point of view OF the people doing the time-traveling, mind you, as it would save them from getting killed,but it wouldn't to beans about saving the UFP.

And I CAN imagine what a Federation 25,000 years old might be like. It would most likely be EXTINCT thanks to the people running it from the TNG era on being complete morons.

We don't know if they are still like TNG 600 years later much less 25000. You could also say the same about a species of Rakata slaves that eventually formed a galaxy spanning empire.

Small problem-we KNOW what became of those Rakata slaves. ALL we know about the future of the UFP is that the people in charge of shaping it are abysmally stupid.

Besides, what the Federation MIGHT become 25,000 years down the line is IRRELEVANT, at least for the Vs debate. The Federation as is gets EATEN.

I agree, I was just pointing it out as a possible fanfic idea since the guy obviously likes to write.

We have a fanfic forum for that.

[Ghost Rider]

Strange they never had any reservations until said event occurs in another series much after many a ballhooed event. I mean to think of doing it BoBW, or hell anytime that the Federation would've saved hundreds to millions of lives!

Thanks for pointing out something that occured later that must affect all of the series because why again? I mean the times we see time fucking around in TNG, there's never a mention of a temporal PD, nor in TOS. So we are retroactively adding it where there is no mention by anyone within that universe of said statement?

Does BoBW mean Best of Both Worlds? I'm no die hard trekkie by any means, but I'm pretty sure there was no time travel involved there.

Good to know you cannot read, it helps to understand why you are not answering the question that was presented before:

Prove the Temporal Prime Directive existed as a Trek Protocol before it was used in DS9/Voyager.

[Batman]

Does BoBW mean Best of Both Worlds? I'm no die hard trekkie by any means, but I'm pretty sure there was no time travel involved there.

That was sort of the point. If time travel was that easy to do and/or would actually HELP them don't you think Picard or Riker would have USED it?

[Jake]

That was sort of the point. If time travel was that easy to do and/or would actually HELP them don't you think Picard or Riker would have USED it?

I think you guys are misunderstanding. I'm saying that time travel was widely used around the year 3000, not during TNG. By 3000 (or 2900 or 3100 or some time around there) time travel lead to a temporal civil war (main plot of star trek enterprise). I was saying that if the UFP could create such technology in a span of 600-700 years, who knows what they could do in 25000 years? This is pure speculation and I know that. I also know that TNG trek would be crushed by the empire (look at my first post, I proved it).

Prove the Temporal Prime Directive existed as a Trek Protocol before it was used in DS9/Voyager.

It didn't. It came about when time travel became controllable.

[Jake]

Err-no. It would merely mean the people doing the time-travelling would be spared the consequences of it. Which would probably be a worthwhile undertaking from the point of view OF the people doing the time-traveling, mind you, as it would save them from getting killed,but it wouldn't to beans about saving the UFP.

Once again I mean later century feds. TNG would be screwed because time travel is not controllable yet.

Small problem-we KNOW what became of those Rakata slaves. ALL we know about the future of the UFP is that the people in charge of shaping it are abysmally stupid.

I'm just saying that said incompetent government (if it really is incompetent, which I don't completely agree with) is still a quadrant superpower and is known to survive to at last the 31st century as such. Compared to a primitive people under the control of a technologically advanced, dark side powered, uber empire, the feds would have a pretty good chance of ascending to the position of galactic power given 25000 years.

[Batman]

That was sort of the point. If time travel was that easy to do and/or would actually HELP them don't you think Picard or Riker would have USED it?

I think you guys are misunderstanding. I'm saying that time travel was widely used around the year 3000, not during TNG. By 3000 (or 2900 or 3100 or some time around there) time travel lead to a temporal civil war (main plot of star trek enterprise). I was saying that if the UFP could create such technology in a span of 600-700 years, who knows what they could do in 25000 years?

Nobody, assuming they'll still be around. What I was actually SAYING, and apparently flew right over your head, was that that technology isn't particularly IMPRESSIVE given it does jack all to address the immense technology gap. They're STILL outgunned six ways from sunday, they now just have the chance to run away to where MAYBE they won't be.

[Batman]

Sorry for the doublepost but it's late (well, early) and I'm not up to the formatting that would have been needed to merge those into a single post.

Err-no. It would merely mean the people doing the time-travelling would be spared the consequences of it. Which would probably be a worthwhile undertaking from the point of view OF the people doing the time-traveling, mind you, as it would save them from getting killed,but it wouldn't to beans about saving the UFP.

Once again I mean later century feds. TNG would be screwed because time travel is not controllable yet.

Kirk doing it on several occasions suggests otherwise. Does nothing to counter the point that time travel is essentialy useless except as a personal survival tool.

Small problem-we KNOW what became of those Rakata slaves. ALL we know about the future of the UFP is that the people in charge of shaping it are abysmally stupid.

I'm just saying that said incompetent government (if it really is incompetent, which I don't completely agree with) is still a quadrant superpower and is known to survive to at last the 31st century as such. Compared to a primitive people under the control of a technologically advanced, dark side powered, uber empire, the feds would have a pretty good chance of ascending to the position of galactic power given 25000 years.

As per-you saying so.

[Jake]

You just don't get it, do you? I'm not arguing the technology gap, nor am I saying that TNG trek has any chance of winning. I'm just saying there are other ways to solve the problem. Here's one:
30th century Feds surrender their galaxy to the empire on the condition that their citizens are allowed to time travel away with starfleet. They time travel back to where ever the wormhole that let the empire in is and collapse the shit out of it. They then go back to their new future time line. Did they 'win'? No. Is the problem solved? Yes.

[The Vortex Empire]

Why would the Empire allow them to do that?

[Jake]

They get a whole galaxy without resistance. Who in the empire gives a shit about the population?

[The Vortex Empire]

They get a whole galaxy without resistance. Who in the empire gives a shit about the population?

Somebody who doesn't want them timetraveling back and having free reign to fuck with their new galaxy? Or to stop them from taking the galaxy in the first place?

[Jake]

I thought we were assuming parallel universes here. The feds time traveling would have no effect on 'this' empire.

[Jake]

Or the feds could just ask the empire to let them leave the galaxy. They don't even have to mention the time travel.

[The Vortex Empire]

I thought we were assuming parallel universes here. The feds time traveling would have no effect on 'this' empire.

In that case, why wouldn't they want to keep the population for slave labor and taxes? This IS the Empire after all.

[Jake]

Ok, if worse comes to worse, the feds could distract them on the negotiating table and the battlefield (maybe the 3000 feds will at least be a distraction) while transferring as much of their civilian population as they can to timeships. I don't think it would come to this though. Why would you need slaves when you have far more efficient droids? Why would you need taxes when you can just take all of the galaxy's resources w/out worrying about the population?

[Batman]

WHY WOULD THEY CARE? (And sorry for taking so long to get what you were getting at, Jake. The World's Greatest Detective should be quicker on the uptake. I my defense I think I'm still officially dead). Why would the Empire care what happens in a parallel timeline? Sure, the Feds LOST, AND ran away, but they ran away to a reality where they (eventually) if not won, then at least prevented the conflict altogether AND get to live happily ever after.

[Jake]

WHY WOULD THEY CARE? (And sorry for taking so long to get what you were getting at, Jake. The World's Greatest Detective should be quicker on the uptake. I my defense I think I'm still officially dead). Why would the Empire care what happens in a parallel timeline? Sure, the Feds LOST, AND ran away, but they ran away to a reality where they (eventually) if not won, then at least prevented the conflict altogether AND get to live happily ever after.

So my question stands. Why would the empire care if the feds 'win' in another reality and get to live happily ever after? It doesn't affect them in the least.

[Youngla0450]

Peoples, I believe the Death Star will mean the Empire wins. The Death Star is stated to have more fire-power then at least 50% of the Imperial Starfleet, and since that part maybes is around 15 million ships, the Death Star has three times as much firepower then the ENTIRE Federation star-fleet.