"Warstard" arguments?

[Darth Hoth]

I can't really think of any Warstards who represent even a noticable minority: the true scale and expanse of the STAR WARS civilization is implied and required subtlely in the films (except for the Death Star). It takes someone the ability to do basic math and with some knowledge of modern institutions to scale accordingly and think and realize the true size of a galaxy. Therefore this basically rules out the groups who usually qualify to become -tards because they're all characterized by poor education and ignorance of science, math, and real life. As Mike points out, these Warstards accordingly go by the most superficial, lazy wankery views of the EU they can find and that leads them to be obscenely minimalistic.

Hm, that makes sense.

[Kurgan]

I guess I'm usually thinking of the folks who wank out the abilities of the Jedi/Sith (thinking of the Clone Wars cartoon levels of power here... force pushing entire armies, throwing capital ships around; or Dark Empire levels of blowing up planets), wanky "sith artifacts" that are like thousand year old hunks of rusty metal or gems that somehow have magic abilities far beyond the high tech stuff of the Empire, individual fighters that can take out capital ships, and maybe even the Ewoks taking out the Empire in ROTJ.


But I guess it's sort of weakening part of Star Wars at the expense of anothe part of it. But the Jedi wanking is a major one (and Grievous wanking too).

The Jedi in CW would kick the asses of all the Jedi in Episode III and make mincemeat of Palpatine and his troops. The CW Grievous would eat movie Obi-Wan's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

[Ted C]

I suppose you could call the occasional Force Storm wank argument a Warstardism.

[Chris Parr]

The CW Grievous would eat movie Obi-Wan's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

But wasn't CW Grievous Force Crushed by Mace Windu, at the end of the Clone Wars cartoon series? Wouldn't that damage slow him up somewhat? Say, to what we saw in ROTS? [/i]

[Kurgan]

The CW Grievous would eat movie Obi-Wan's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

But wasn't CW Grievous Force Crushed by Mace Windu, at the end of the Clone Wars cartoon series? Wouldn't that damage slow him up somewhat? Say, to what we saw in ROTS? [/i]

I don't buy that at all as an explanation for why he suddenly goes from 65 to zero in one movie (which supposedly takes place within days of the episode we're talking about). There's no visible damage on him in the movie, so it's as if it never happened. As far as I'm concerned, movie Grievous was always an asthmatic cyborg. The Jedi power levels between CW and Episode III really can't be explained (even by this "shroud of the darkside" plot convenience... what, their powers were weakened, then boosted, then weakened again?).

Anyway, the CW Jedi are mini-gods, but as soon as they encounter Grievous, they turn into pussies, and he mops the floor with them.

If turning his power down to nothing was so simple, why didn't anyone else think of crushing his chest before Mace tried it? Let me guess, because he's this "gray Jedi" who "skirts the edge of the dark side"? This too is nonsense, because the Prequel era Jedi clearly have no taboos against using the force to "attack" their enemies, per the teachings Yoda spews in ESB.

Anyway, my point is just that the CW thing is a good example of official "wanking" of certain things (Jedi, Grievous), much like the Fandalorian wanking in other EU stuff.

[Kurgan]

But, I should say, Grievous' power is greatly increased in CW. He can leap super high in the air (equivalent to Force jump) and stick on the ceiling. He can DODGE force thrown objects and strikes from Jedi Masters. I could be mistaken, but I think he even manages to dodge a force push in CW (someone feel free to correct me on that one). He can move as fast, if not faster than Jedi Masters... multiple Jedi Masters in fact. I highly doubt you could take out CW Grievous with just a blaster, even if his chest armor was busted wide open, since he can just dodge out of the way or block it.

[Kurgan]

Okay, one last thing... it's dumb anyway, because Mace should have just crushed the jerk's head, end of fight (the point was always to kill Grievous, not capture him, right?). So it's really inconsistent. He clearly has no defense against the Force in Episode III. But up until the Force crush, it's like he either has the force himself, or force powers just don't work on him in CW.

[Murazor]

The rationalization for Grievous perfomance in the Clone Wars (being able to overpower five Jedi, three of them Masters and two High Council members) was that he is just that fast, far faster than the vast majority of Jedi Masters, and that the use of psychological warfare allows him to damage the focus, making the Force based attacks (that most Jedi use rarely, anyway) less effective.

As Dooku put it, to battle the best of the Jedi, Grievous needed fear, surprise AND intimidation and if he lacked any of them (as he did when Windu showed up) he was supposed to retreat at best possible speed. As for blasters, the Clone Wars incarnation was hit more or less to the face with a rocket launcher style weapon during the retreat of 500 Republica and it didn't even scratch his armour.

And yes, Grievous avoids a Force-push thrown by Ki-Adi-Mundi in Hypori and possibly a few from Shaak Tii and friends in Coruscant.

[Tiriol]

Wasn't at least the first season of Clone Wars supposed to be in-universe storytelling/Rebel propaganda by the boy who saw Master Windu fight against the Separatist droid force?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I am not so bothered by very powerful Force adepts because unless they are uebermenschen then it begs the question of why they matter and persist throughout history and are so damn influential, and I mean why other than plot fiat.

[Darth Hoth]

I am not so bothered by very powerful Force adepts because unless they are uebermenschen then it begs the question of why they matter and persist throughout history and are so damn influential, and I mean why other than plot fiat.

I was under the impression that the problem most people have with Expanded Universe depictions of seemingly exaggerated Jedi/Sith powers is that they do not compute with the much-weaker Lucas-stamped versions. I myself do not mind, but that is the most common argument that I have heard of.

[Darth Hoth]

Damn, forgot about the edit and screwed up. Will a mod please delete the second post?

[Done ~NL]

[Kurgan]

Wasn't at least the first season of Clone Wars supposed to be in-universe storytelling/Rebel propaganda by the boy who saw Master Windu fight against the Separatist droid force?

I thought that was a handy explanation too, but Season 2 is when Grievous debuts, so it doesn't explain that way. Season 3 is a little less wanked iirc (probably thanks to Episode III toning it a bit down), but still...

[Kurgan]

My main issue with the Force wanking is that it's so inconsistent... sometimes the Jedi/Sith are gods and other times they're complete pushovers... like plot convenience.

[Darth Wong]

I am not so bothered by very powerful Force adepts because unless they are uebermenschen then it begs the question of why they matter and persist throughout history and are so damn influential, and I mean why other than plot fiat.

I was under the impression that the problem most people have with Expanded Universe depictions of seemingly exaggerated Jedi/Sith powers is that they do not compute with the much-weaker Lucas-stamped versions. I myself do not mind, but that is the most common argument that I have heard of.

It's worth pointing out that most of the really wanked stuff took place a really long time ago in the EU timeline, and might be chalked up to legend and exaggeration over time (just as Troy was a real city and there might have been a real Siege of Troy and even a real Achilles, but Homer's story is totally ridiculous).

In real life, there is a consistent pattern of ancient historians grotesquely exaggerating things (for example, history is replete with tales of battles involving armies of a million men or more, even though we know that no nation at the time could have fielded such a large army).

[The Grim Squeaker]

Wasn't at least the first season of Clone Wars supposed to be in-universe storytelling/Rebel propaganda by the boy who saw Master Windu fight against the Separatist droid force?

I thought that was a handy explanation too, but Season 2 is when Grievous debuts, so it doesn't explain that way. Season 3 is a little less wanked iirc (probably thanks to Episode III toning it a bit down), but still...

There are only 2 seasons of the Tartovsky CW cartoons, and Grevious debuts at the finale of the first season...

[Illuminatus Primus]

I am not so bothered by very powerful Force adepts because unless they are uebermenschen then it begs the question of why they matter and persist throughout history and are so damn influential, and I mean why other than plot fiat.

I was under the impression that the problem most people have with Expanded Universe depictions of seemingly exaggerated Jedi/Sith powers is that they do not compute with the much-weaker Lucas-stamped versions. I myself do not mind, but that is the most common argument that I have heard of.

It's worth pointing out that most of the really wanked stuff took place a really long time ago in the EU timeline, and might be chalked up to legend and exaggeration over time (just as Troy was a real city and there might have been a real Siege of Troy and even a real Achilles, but Homer's story is totally ridiculous).

In real life, there is a consistent pattern of ancient historians grotesquely exaggerating things (for example, history is replete with tales of battles involving armies of a million men or more, even though we know that no nation at the time could have fielded such a large army).

Lucas' Jedi being weak is a meme based partially on Lucas' own inconsistency and partially on subtlety and poor analysis. Take Yoda and Palpatine's feats; they clearly exceed most of what is possible in the EU - gigantic multi-ton objects thrown with impunity. Take Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon on SS Profiteer; they turn transparent and blasters shoot through them, and can accelerate at at least 100s of G through the Force. We've seen that Anakin can survive hundreds and maybe thousands of G acceleration jumping from speeder to moving speeder. Obi-Wan can survive physical strikes that dent SW-tech starfighter hull plating; he can pry and warp armor plating which survives heavy attacks with his bare hands. Of course, in AOTC "redshirt" Jedi seemingly forget to use their powers and conveniently die as it advances the plot. Obi-Wan's ability to hide and infiltrate the Death Star is a pretty amazing feat. Imagine what well-equipped force of Obi-Wan's fully-equipped with proper intel and op planning and without Darth Vader could do to the Death Star or a base or a fleet through proper sabotage?

[Darth Hoth]

Lucas' Jedi being weak is a meme based partially on Lucas' own inconsistency and partially on subtlety and poor analysis.

I would agree; he is mightily inconsistent in his depiction of them. Of course, this is very much likely due to the fact that he is himself an ignoramus with little grasp of science and includes things on the basis of them looking KEWL. To him, Anakin managing terminal velocity probably looks less impressive than Vader throwing garbage cans at Luke in Cloud City. It is akin, in a way, to the writers who insist that Captain America is "only human" and still have him doing crazy shit more appropriate for the likes of Spider-Man; they just do not know what they are talking about.

Take Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon on SS Profiteer; they turn transparent and blasters shoot through them, and can accelerate at at least 100s of G through the Force.

This is actually in the film? I shall not pretend to know it well; I only watched it once or twice.

Of course, in AOTC "redshirt" Jedi seemingly forget to use their powers and conveniently die as it advances the plot.

All the more so since those are the elite from the Temple itself.

Obi-Wan's ability to hide and infiltrate the Death Star is a pretty amazing feat. Imagine what well-equipped force of Obi-Wan's fully-equipped with proper intel and op planning and without Darth Vader could do to the Death Star or a base or a fleet through proper sabotage?

In my opinion what the Jedi should have been in the Clone Wars: Commandos and spec forces, not squad/platoon-leading "Generals".

[Tiriol]

Obi-Wan's ability to hide and infiltrate the Death Star is a pretty amazing feat. Imagine what well-equipped force of Obi-Wan's fully-equipped with proper intel and op planning and without Darth Vader could do to the Death Star or a base or a fleet through proper sabotage?

In my opinion what the Jedi should have been in the Clone Wars: Commandos and spec forces, not squad/platoon-leading "Generals".

One Clone Wars comic actually dealt with a Jedi Master who sneaked inside a Separatist cloning facility and dealt quite astonishing losses over a small period of time all alone all the while being tracked by at least two Dark Jedi, the elite of Anzati assassins and whatever Morgukai warrior clones they could throw at him. The Jedi's role as generals can be explained in the first phase by the fact that the Republic did not have any other large enough and well-trained enough group capable of it; and in second phase (after the volunteer officers and clone commanders appear) out of stubborness and pride.

[Noble Ire]

There are only 2 seasons of the Tartovsky CW cartoons, and Grevious debuts at the finale of the first season...

As far as I know, there are, in fact, three seasons of the show, each either five or ten episodes long. The first, ending with the capture of Muunilist; the second, concluding with the unveiling of General Grevious; and the third (only five episodes long, but with longer segments) leading directly into Revenge of the Sith.

The first two do seem to form a contiguous season, but they were originally aired several months apart.

[Ted C]

The Jedi's role as generals can be explained in the first phase by the fact that the Republic did not have any other large enough and well-trained enough group capable of it; and in second phase (after the volunteer officers and clone commanders appear) out of stubborness and pride.

What about the Supreme Chancellor wanting to put Jedi in highly vulnerable, leading-from-the-front positions?

[Illuminatus Primus]

This is actually in the film? I shall not pretend to know it well; I only watched it once or twice.

All the more so since those are the elite from the Temple itself.

Of course, elite may be a relative term. It could just as well be that the meritocratic elite are busy constantly on field missions trying to hold together the disintegrating polity administrated by an incompetent and corrupt government apparatus and guarded by a tenured, boorish warrior elite with a dangerous lack of prospective. The institutional elite could just as well be the most political and doctrinally loyal clients of the High Council and the other seniors, as opposed to the most talented Jedi. The behavior and philosophy of the High Council in the films does not lend itself well to the interpretation they are exceptionally meritocratic and competent and therefore that their reserved elite is composed of the most capable.

In my opinion what the Jedi should have been in the Clone Wars: Commandos and spec forces, not squad/platoon-leading "Generals".

I agree. The Jedi Knights should've been a combination of spies, saboteurs, special forces, commandos, strategists and officer consultants (using long-term clarvoyance and battle meditation etc to aid in intel and strategic, tactical, and operational planning), a handful of qualified general officers (Jedi who serve in military as career officers and are qualified to be generals, rather than Jedi being automatically generals), etc.

[Illuminatus Primus]

This is actually in the film? I shall not pretend to know it well; I only watched it once or twice.

Its played at normal speed but the frame-by-frame shows what must be intentful alterations of the film in order to depict Jedi powers. Its easy to miss if you're not looking, but you'll notice if you look deliberately. Its when they flee from the destroyer droids.

Scroll down to Mike's post with pictures.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Holy BALLS! I hadn't seen that before. Jedi can probably outrun Vampires.

[Darth Hoth]

This is actually in the film? I shall not pretend to know it well; I only watched it once or twice.

Its played at normal speed but the frame-by-frame shows what must be intentful alterations of the film in order to depict Jedi powers. Its easy to miss if you're not looking, but you'll notice if you look deliberately. Its when they flee from the destroyer droids.

Scroll down to Mike's post with pictures.

Now that is something, indeed. Thank you for the link, I honestly had no idea. This beats the Dark Empire audiobook fair and square.