A serious discussion... ST/SW

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-08-11 08:20am

The novels don't take place in between the movies unless Lucas has done a movie set 30 odd years after ANH that none of us know about. There are only a few novels that take place between the movies, eg. Shadows of the Empire, Splointer of the minds eye. Most are set either before, eg. the Han Solo trilogy and Lando's novles, or after the movies, eg. Most of the EU.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-08-11 08:21am

Also I believe at the beginning of AOTC Obi-Wan and Anakin were returning from a mission on Ansion. That was the plotline for an EU novel I believe so Lucas must hold the EU in some sort of regard to use it even passingly like that.

Oh yeah and I think some of the Jedi extras in the arena were EU creations.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-08-11 08:31am

One of the Jedi in AOTC battle scene was a EU character. It was the Twilek woman and the official site did an article on it.

Trek Representative · Post by **Trek Representative** » 2002-08-11 09:30am

Some interesting points have been risen, the first being that for me to read the entire message board, or even just this forum, would take quite a while. Not to mention when you add how many people post here in a day.

And here's another. Star Trek and Star Wars are quite similar in the fact that they steal ideas from other un-canon sources to make it true canon. For instance, when the Enterprise-D saucer section crash landed on a planet in "Generations", this was taken from two places. The first was from the Tech Manual. A section on emergency planetary landing procedures had been written which was used as a final inspiration for the final destruction of Enterprise. The First part however (battle with the BoP where Engineering absorbed most fire) was taken from an alternate ending not used in ST: TMP.

You want a better example? Warp scale charts have popped up in the Encyclopedia, the tech manuals, etcetera, but in TNG (can't remember the ep) one was actually shown on a console. If you wish, I can attach the picture of the warp scale, which I will be using later in this debate.

Same rules apply for SW. Any non-canon element (character, technical specs, whatever) can be used when either a writer gets lazy, or no better one exists.

As for asteroid demolition, I still think a beam weapon would be more sufficient for cutting larger chucks as well. You could program the targetting system for a certain number of mappeed impulses on the asteroid, carving it down to managable, harmless pieces. Projectiles are simply unpredictable weapons (when it comes to debris) which cause a good deal of sudden damage.

When I get home from work, I'll give examples and give you a rough power estimation of the Galaxy. But please, keep talking.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-08-11 09:36am

Trek Representative wrote:Some interesting points have been risen, the first being that for me to read the entire message board, or even just this forum, would take quite a while. Not to mention when you add how many people post here in a day.

I didn't ask you to read all the message boards i asked you to read Mike Wong's site, ie, the site that these boards are attached to.

here's the link to save you some time:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/index.html

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-08-11 09:39am

Or you can just click on the bit at the top that says Stardestroyer.net , then click on I Want You .... and thats just as good.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-11 09:43am

Nice to see a new trekkie on the boards who doesn't start with open flames and "W4rz c4|\| Suxorx |\/|Y Coxorz!"

Trek Representative wrote:There's a thread in this forum which has a quote from Lucas himself, stating that the books are a parallel universe. Really that's just a polite way of saying that the novels aren't canon. No book truly is. Comments or SOME ideas can sometimes be used, but unless a comment has been authenticated in a later movie (Trek, episode), it has no canon value. Novels are simply opinions of fans, and opinions aren't canon. They explanations they provide often make a WHOLE lot of sense, and I've read a lot of Trek novels which offered insight, but none of them can be taken seriously. I'm sorry to be this direct, but (at least to me) it's straight forward.

Yes they are not canon, but Darkstar is using the quote about the writing process to try to prove them not even official.

As for Treknology, Star Trek science is essentially today's science with a few more elementary particles and a bit of a twist. A great deal of all science in Star Trek is based on currently unproven theoretical events and capabilities. FTL propulsion is one of them, which transends into SW. Transporters in their most primitive state are being tinkered with, and successful short ranged transports of particles have been done. If you don't believe me, I can direct you to many real life articles. Sonic showers are another advancement that we are coming closer and closer to, although some sort of paste (or soap) would likely have to be used in addition.

Uh, no. Trek isn't anywhere close to science. IE "There's a crack in the event horizon!", the flesh melting radiation in Nemisis, how they deal with evolution, their definition of species, their metric system, or their theories on how to travel through time. Trekkies can make up all the fan solutions they want, but the fact remains that it is really just total ignorance about science.

Same thing goes for that parsec bit.

As for Trek being an impossibility, the only thing preventing such a reality is people unwilling to co-operate for everyone's benefit. Simply by combining the military budgets of every major power, we could cure diseases like cancer, aids, and even keep up with the common cold in a matter of a few years (if that long) as well as clean up the planet, solve hunger, poverty, and easily double our technological advancement from year to year. Granted, the timespan of Trek makes some elements unrealistic, but as it stands it is simply everyone's inability to trust and help one another that prevents this. Do you not believe that a WWIII killing a tenth of Earth's current population, with an alien intervention to help us learn more about the galaxy and ourselves, along with the ability to explore what we've been gazing at for decades, wouldn't bring at least the majority of the population together? Frankly, I'd be surprised if it didn't.

What's that quote from Orson Wells about Italy and the Renissance vs the Swiss and cookoo clocks?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-11 09:53am

Trek Representative wrote:Granted, by meer numbers alone the Empire could likely "sweep the Federation" as you put it. That I can easily conceed. But this part is interesting.

And speed. And firepower. And defensive capabilities. And production capabilities. etc.

Why did humans essentially "conquer" the SW galaxy? There are so many other alien races, but humans are always on top?

Because the Corellians (humans) invented the first hyperdrive (or stole.bought it from the people who created the system) THerefore they had the most colonies before they contacted the Duros. Basically humans have always had a tech and numbers advantage over every other civilization in the republic.

Isn't that a little unrealistic. Yes, there are many similar instances in Trek, but often the Federation is helped by other alien Empires. Are you trying to tell me that the Empire was like the Borg for the first however many years, wiping out all other Empires that stood before it?

I take it you haven't seen TPM or AotC? The Empire replaced the Republic.

I meant for this to be a reference post in which someone informed of Star Trek events (me), converse with thte informed of SW (you) and find some grounds on which to explain certain subjects. And I truly hope this can still br kept.

Fair enough. Here's one for you. In ST:I, the E-E fires off a quantum torpedo and misses. This is usually taken as badtargeting. However, torpedoes are homing weapons. It should have tracked and hit the ship anyways. The fact that it didn't shows that ECM was being used by the So'noa.

I am browsing my way through the SD.net site, but it may take me a bit to get your perspective of the SW universe, since an informed warsie I am not.

The site more reflects the technology of Wars rather then the plot points like you are asking for.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-11 10:01am

Trek Representative wrote:As for weapon yield, the main difference is that the Federation uses torps for that sort fo demolition. To vaporize such asteroids (and I'm not sure if they were thoroughly "vaporized") would indeed require quite a bit of power. Torpedoes have that power, but much of it is released into the surrounding space. To concentrate all of the energy released by a torpedo would be quite a task. However ISDs are designed for a massive amount of energy beam use, considering it's too bulky to manuever to the target.

If you are talking about the cannons being bulky, 1) they's do just fine against ships the size of trekkie ones. 2) they have lighter guns and fighters for small craft
If you are talking the ships themselves being to bulky, the Endor scenes yeild a calc of 7000 gees circular acceleration. That's faster then any sublight we've ever seen trek pull.

As for the "official" novels, many ST novels are listed as official, including the tech manuals. But none of them are taken as canon, if only because they're not actually a part of a movie (or episode), and although references may be made to events of a movie/episode the other information that novels or tech manuals include are speculative, and only attempting to fill voids made because of the inability to cover all aspects of everything at once.

Problem is, without the TMs you get people claiming they want to uses the 100000000000000000 Exoton torpedo used last week, and some people who want to use the 0.00000001 KT torpedo used this week. So the writers have rendered the guides neccessary if you want to debate at all.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-11 10:11am

Incidentally, Ender, what you said about hyperdrives is not completely accurate. The Corellians did not invent the first hyperdrive. It is common to forget that the SW galaxy was previously inhabited by an incredibly powerful race of beings. These beings created the Corellian system, the Maw Cluster, and Vuffi Raa. I realize this is all official material, but so is the fact that Corellians invented the first hyperdrives thousands of years ago.

Incidentally, I love how Trek Representative says that only canon material can be used, and then he attributes so many things to writer error, or says that they are inconsistent when they can easily be explained away both in-canon, and even more easily with official material, as well.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-11 10:15am

Master of Ossus wrote:Incidentally, Ender, what you said about hyperdrives is not completely accurate. The Corellians did not invent the first hyperdrive. It is common to forget that the SW galaxy was previously inhabited by an incredibly powerful race of beings. These beings created the Corellian system, the Maw Cluster, and Vuffi Raa. I realize this is all official material, but so is the fact that Corellians invented the first hyperdrives thousands of years ago.

Incidentally, I love how Trek Representative says that only canon material can be used, and then he attributes so many things to writer error, or says that they are inconsistent when they can easily be explained away both in-canon, and even more easily with official material, as well.

In parenthisess (god I can't spell) right after it I make mention of the other sources that say they bought it, or stole it, or whatever. Personally I've always reconciled it by assuming the Duros invented a form of FTL travel first (Warp drive or something) that was slower then the hyperdrive. So while they were in spoace first, they didn't get as far. Then the corellians reverse engineered a hyperdrive from stuff they found on centerpoint and used that. That way all the little blurbs in the EU are covered.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-11 12:34pm

This is what the timeline at theforce.net says:
http://www.theforce.net/timetales/tt1-1/sect1-1.shtml

To sum it up for those to look through the whole text:
Warp drive and subspacetech was in use during the time of Xim the despot, more than 25000 years before ANH and long before the invention of hyperdrive.
25000 years ago the Correlians purchased hyperdrive technology from an advanced race of travellers, and started reverse-engineering the device. Soon afterwards they were able to build their own hyperdrive engines. The duros developed the hyperdrive around the same time, but humans were first..
The presence of such a fast FTL system then led to the foundation of the Galactic Republic (which later became our beloved Empire).

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-08-11 01:14pm

Trek Representative wrote:Here's the problem from my perspective; the information offered on the Kessel run is not canon (at least in my view, and every other Trekker out their) and thus the only thing you can do with uncertain information is speculate. Yes, I did state otherwise before, and I apologize. I was referring to speculating about the abilities of canon and using it AS canon. Speculation can be allowed if it is simply used in a conjectural nature. Again, to me, the additional information on the Kessel run is non-canon.

I'm sorry for not clearly stating this issue of speculation prior to. My bad.

Liar. I've met tons of trekkies who accept SW novels.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-08-11 01:15pm

Trek Representative wrote:As for weapon yield, the main difference is that the Federation uses torps for that sort fo demolition. To vaporize such asteroids (and I'm not sure if they were thoroughly "vaporized") would indeed require quite a bit of power. Torpedoes have that power, but much of it is released into the surrounding space. To concentrate all of the energy released by a torpedo would be quite a task. However ISDs are designed for a massive amount of energy beam use, considering it's too bulky to manuever to the target.

As for the "official" novels, many ST novels are listed as official, including the tech manuals. But none of them are taken as canon, if only because they're not actually a part of a movie (or episode), and although references may be made to events of a movie/episode the other information that novels or tech manuals include are speculative, and only attempting to fill voids made because of the inability to cover all aspects of everything at once.

Another lie. It's has been said again and again only on-screen is canon for ST. No official. Stop making this up.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-08-11 01:21pm

Another trekkie saying the stupid old "SW novels aren't canon!"

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-08-11 07:54pm

Cpt_Frank wrote:This is what the timeline at theforce.net says:
http://www.theforce.net/timetales/tt1-1/sect1-1.shtml

To sum it up for those to look through the whole text:
Warp drive and subspacetech was in use during the time of Xim the despot, more than 25000 years before ANH and long before the invention of hyperdrive.
25000 years ago the Correlians purchased hyperdrive technology from an advanced race of travellers, and started reverse-engineering the device. Soon afterwards they were able to build their own hyperdrive engines. The duros developed the hyperdrive around the same time, but humans were first..
The presence of such a fast FTL system then led to the foundation of the Galactic Republic (which later became our beloved Empire).

Where does it say they used warp drive?

Trek Representative · Post by **Trek Representative** » 2002-08-11 07:58pm

I certainly have my work cut out for me.

Ender, admittingly, you can find quite a good deal in Star Trek that has no real relation to today's science except for the extensive technobabble. However, there are still many theories and ideas used which are simply extensions of today's science yet to be explored. I don't know what you're talking about with the flesh melting radiation of Nemesis. However, the claim doesn't seem too far off. If something radiative is at a hyper-reactive state, the amount of heat produced can be phenomenal. This can easily get water to a boilding point in a matter of seconds. As for skin melting, if the water expanded and evaporated too quickly the skin tissue COULD be torn from the muscles. If you are referring to a preview, or a cut scene, I have yet to see it, so (yes, I realize this isn't what it actually may be) these are just suggestions based on your claim. However, I don't know why you say the metric system, the definition of species, etcetera, is supposedly wrong. Granted, time travel in Star Trek is definitely screwed up, most of which (if not all) simply isn't possible. But I would appreciate an explanation of the previous claims.

As for the Empire/Borg reference, I'm sorry, I meant the Republic. I have in fact seen Episodes 1 & 2, this fact simply slipped my mind. The Empire is so much more of a familiar entity to me than the other.

The 7000gees of an ISD is an interesting calculation. Not to mention the power put to that would be astronomical. Here's another tidbit, there were many other times in the movies that we've seen where a 7000gee turn would prove quick useful, such as when they are chasing the Falcon through the asteroid field. Or (speculative) is this only a maneuver to be used in extreme emergency?

The TM reference is interesting. There are indeed quite a few GFUSs out there in the Trek universe, but at a minimum the power values for the different torpedoes have been worked out. If some individuals wish to ignore those values, then they are exactly that; ignorant. The TM are not only a non-canon guide to certain aspects, but a place where ideas or intentions that were never used can be documented (ie. USS Defiant's detachable deflector warhead; quick note, the head of the defiant holding the deflector supposedly comes off to be flown independantly into a target. It has the same ablative armour as the rest of the ship, along with multiple torpodoes integrated into the hull, which are activated once the warhead is detached). However, as I have said before, the TM aren't canon. Thus, the information above is seen only as an idea, or in some instances speculation.

Moving on.

Master of Ossus, I indicated earlier on how speculation is only used in a conjectural nature. To reiterate my point, if you were talking about something (canon or not) and are not attempting to explain it using factual information, it is only a speculative argument. Such "arguments" are allowed, but not when trying to prove a canon point, or when attempting to use the argument AS canon. Again, I'm sorry if I was not clear and will attempt to rectify this.

Grand Admiral Thrawn, there are likely Trekkies who do accept te SW novels. That was a flagrant and zealous statement on my behalf. I apologize as such, but I get my reference from the many Star Trek message boards I do roam, as well as (more predominantly) the personal opinions of Trekkers I have met. GENERALLY, although many enjoy the novels to a certain extent, they still do not see them as canon (that lovely word again). I'm sorry if I offended you with that statement.

As for your other argument, this is your own fault. You claim I lie in a previous post and then state that the TM aren't canon. Indeed, you are correct. However, if you were to read the very next sentence, you would see that I clearly state, "But none of them are taken as canon".

As per your last statement, I would at least concider myself as not some stupid old Trekkie. The statement of "SW novels aren't canon" is quite correct. No matter how much any may defend it otherwise, such independant authoring is in no way a true source of correct information. Even if the publications are regulated, the fact is irrelevant. Continuity is of no object when dealing with novels. It can make the reading experience seem like one big continuous story, but past that every author is coming up with their own opinions and own reasons for different events. Even if the ideas aren't contradicted, or even used elsewhere, this does not instantaneously make them canon.

From here I am going to do a post on a Galaxy class's power output, again with canon information. From there I will likely go on to weapon strength indices and so on. If someone would like to do the same for the SW universe I would be appreciative.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-11 08:16pm

Trek Representative:

7000G's is the straightline acceleration -minimum- for the events in ROTJ. Detailed calcs can be found at Dr. Saxton's site.

As for 'Novels aren't Canon', they are explicity stated to be Official, much like the Trek TM was once considered. In addition, the non-EU books(The ICS, the Visual dictionaries, etc) are also Official. LucasFilm has stated very simply that if Official doesn't contradict the movies, they're fine.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2002-08-11 08:41pm

What you obviously don't understand is that there are many levels of canon. Here are the Star Wars ones (you CAN'T REFUTE THEM, so don't try):

Movies
-Special Edition Movies
-Original Movies
Radio Drama
Novels
Official Material (SW.com, ICS)

Here are the Star Trek ones:

TV

Yes, that's it.

You CAN start a debate that disregards all SW info below movies if you wish, no one here is saying you can't. You CANNOT start one that says "All canon material" and then say that novels don't count.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-08-11 09:19pm

StarshipTitanic wrote: Movies
-Special Edition Movies
-Original Movies
Radio Drama
Novels
Official Material (SW.com, ICS)

Hmmm... I had thought it was more like this:

Absolute Canon
SE Movies
Original Movies
Scripts
Radio Dramas
Novelisations (aka the books based on the movies/scripts)

Near-Canon Official
Basic official stuff

Non-Canon Official
Infinities stuff

... Where Near-Canon Official information have support in Absolute Canon, it is also considered canon until proven otherwise.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-08-11 09:26pm

Farce is pretty much right, except that the basic Canon order is a little off.

-CANON-
1. Films
-1A. Special Edition Films
-1B. Original Edition Films
2. Film Scripts (Shooting Scripts Only!)
3. Film Novelisations
4. Radio Dramas

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-08-11 09:42pm

Trek Representative wrote:Why did humans essentially "conquer" the SW galaxy? There are so many other alien races, but humans are always on top?

Also, there was a quote about that in Hero's Trial, on p.240:

Of all the races who gamble their well-being on uncertain returns --- and there aren't many, statiscally --- the trait's most noticeable in humans, one of the most successful life-forms.

Humans risk big, and they end up winning big.

Trek Representative · Post by **Trek Representative** » 2002-08-11 09:59pm

Okay, even so, 7000Gs is hard to judge as a speed. And for that to be a minimum seems a bit far. However, (before anyone snaps at me) it is hard to tell without an actual speed rating. Km/h, or m/h will easily suffice if anyone has that information available.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, a chart of the velocity values of various warp speeds has been given in Trek. It showed up in an episode on a display screen. This contains some interesting information that can allow me to extrapolate a Galaxy's energy requirements. On the side of the chart it has a listing of MegaWatts per cochrane.

This is fairly straight forward thus far, right? And we have the power requirements for each warp speed per cochrane. From this it is very easy to figure out the total required power if you simply multiply the Cochrane value of each warp factor by the power per Cochrane. There is another picture I have, although this one is not canon. However, it is essentially a compilation of canon information. From this you can calculate the amount of energy a Galaxy class would have to pump out to travel at a given warp speed.

Now, it has been clearly stated that the Galaxy can travel at Warp 9.6 for twelve hours. So our warp speed is 9.6. The Cochranes (or how many times faster the speed of a Warp value is) for Warp 9.6 are 1,909.

Given these facts, a Galaxy should be able to produce a good 4.77x10^18 watts, or 4,770,000 TeraWatts. However, (and I'm getting speculative) this is likely not it's maximum power output, as it has topped out it's speeds before and still had enough energy for the gravity plating, lighting, communication, weaponry, replicators, computer core, shields, (and so on) to remain operational. But this is just a minute detail, and the increase of power specs (besides the shielding and possibly weaponry) would be minimal.

But let's move to something purely canon. Something straight out of TNG.

The sixth season TNG episode "True Q" has a student by the name of Amanda Rogers taking a tour of Engineering with Data and Geordi. She says aloud that she wonders what the warp core is capable of. At that point, Data (speaking of the warp core) says: "We are presently generating twelve point seven five billion gigawatts per-" before he's cut off by the alarm.

The amount he listed is even higher than the previous value. He said the ship was generating 12,750,000 TeraWatts. Mind you, he didn't say during what time span. Since they were simply orbitting a planet at the time, with no tactical systems operational, he was likely looking at a longer timespan a few minutes, or possibly even a few hours. This is speculation, but he was likely talking in the one to two day range, although this is only speculation.

So that puts the possible output of a Galaxy class somewhere between (approx) 4.8 and 12.8 million TeraWatts. The latter number is seemingly too high considering the circumstances when Data said it, but somewhere between the two numbers would be likely. Perhaps somewhere around 6 million, but once again this is only speculative. In the end, a canon 4.8 million TeraWatts is a modest calculation for a Galaxy's power output.[/img]

Trek Representative · Post by **Trek Representative** » 2002-08-11 10:02pm

The pictures I used as references are as follows:

http://www.geocities.com/retch_ulandria ... _chart.gif http://www.geocities.com/retch_ulandria/Warpchrt.jpg

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-11 10:10pm

First and formost, True Q is a bad reference point for power generation. Why? Because his unit of measurement, GigaWatt, has a time unit built in, therefore the 'per' cannot refer to a period of time. It might be 'per full load' or 'per hull cycle' or even 'per cup of Captain Picard Earl Grey'.

The other Canon instances of power generation mentioned put it much lower: TeraWatt range(1-999 TW)

7000G's is acceleration. Velocity is largely meaningless in space: For ships not using Trek's bizarre Impulse drive, any speed can be obtained simply by accelerating for the right length of time. However, there are numerous instances of fractional-C speeds, often in the novels. As for the movies, it was recently pointed out that to reach Hoth's asteroid belt in the time we saw, the ISD's and the Falcon would have to be moving at a notable fraction of c before actually hitting the belt(Where any sane man would slow down.).

As for the Galaxy's power output, that's not too impressive, considering that an outdated Acclamator class Transport generated a whopping 1e29W from it's main reactor.