Euthanasia Nitwits

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Post by General Zod »

Zixinus wrote:What about the notion that if we allow suffering people to commit suicide now, would we be guilty of murder if a new cure came up the horizon that could have cured the suffering person's illness?
That would be difficult to enforce and set a messy precedent. It would be equivalent to punishing people for using a substance that was legal last year even though they might have stopped doing it after it became illegal.
Also, humanity has an enormous, ever-growing supply of mind-altering drugs that could ease suffering. Can't we use those?
Doesn't really seem to work too well for people like, say, Terry Schiavo. When they get as bad as her do you really want to prolong their suffering any more when there's no registrable brain activity for months?
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Brianeyci Wrote
I consider suicide to be an extremely self-centered choice.
In general I agree with you on this. It is such a tough issue.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

General Zod wrote:
Zixinus wrote:What about the notion that if we allow suffering people to commit suicide now, would we be guilty of murder if a new cure came up the horizon that could have cured the suffering person's illness?
That would be difficult to enforce and set a messy precedent. It would be equivalent to punishing people for using a substance that was legal last year even though they might have stopped doing it after it became illegal.
Also, humanity has an enormous, ever-growing supply of mind-altering drugs that could ease suffering. Can't we use those?
Doesn't really seem to work too well for people like, say, Terry Schiavo. When they get as bad as her do you really want to prolong their suffering any more when there's no registrable brain activity for months?
That's totally unrelated to euthanasia, because if they'd just pulled the plug on her respirator she would have died quite naturally.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

brianeyci wrote:I consider suicide to be an extremely self-centered choice. Every single one of us owes our society. Paying taxes barely makes up for the amount of suckle an average person does. Think about how much money a high school education costs, how much money social safety nets cost, and so on. Life isn't always about choice. It's about responsibility. If your parents didn't raise you to kill yourself, why the fuck would you consider it except under the most extreme circumstances? If I kill myself now, nobody is going to take care of my mother when she retires. Each citizen does have a responsibility to contribute to their society as much as possible. We are literally eating off the fruits of previous generations, soldiers who died, scientists who slaved. If your life sucks so much you want to kill yourself, I'm sure there's some marginal way you can contribute to society while spending the rest of the day comatose. Responsibility to your family and friends is also paramount. They did not invest in you to see you kill yourself and hurt them.

Only a mountain man who lives off the grid can truly say he doesn't owe society anything, and even mountain men owe in that if there was a dictatorial government willing to go in and subjugate them, they would lose their quality of life. Anybody who lives in the grid, who has friends, who has family, has more responsibility than just his own personal choice.
And sometimes you owe society your life. That is when suicide is appropriate.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Molyneux wrote:
So, instead of trying to actually do some good in the world - make up for their failures - they just bow out of the race. That's one thing that has never seemed admirable to me, in any society.
Sometimes the most objective good you can do is by offing yourself. Those situations are extremely rare and 99% of suicides in the modern western world are for reasons which don't qualify, but suicide is not automatically a social ill.
I haven't seen Kevorkian in person or on video, but I haven't ever heard any allegations that he was insane or unbalanced before...
I'm deeply concerned as a matter of course over the sort of mental condition of someone who goes to prison to uphold his right to kill others, which he has done several dozen times.
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Post by General Zod »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
That's totally unrelated to euthanasia, because if they'd just pulled the plug on her respirator she would have died quite naturally.
Best example I could think of offhand, unfortunately. Basically I'm talking about anyone who's so physically ill that every moment they exist is agony for them and there is no foreseeable cure within their lifetime.
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Post by Knife »

General Zod wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
That's totally unrelated to euthanasia, because if they'd just pulled the plug on her respirator she would have died quite naturally.
Best example I could think of offhand, unfortunately. Basically I'm talking about anyone who's so physically ill that every moment they exist is agony for them and there is no foreseeable cure within their lifetime.
That's the real question isn't it? Where is the line. Shivo is an easy guess, as said; pull the plug on the resperator...

But where do we draw the line? People who suffer from cancer with slim to no chance to survive but they aren't on life support? Alzheimers?

Personally, I think, when the medical care switches to 'make comfortable' from cure or rehabilitate, the option of suicide should come into play. IMO anyway.
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But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by General Zod »

Knife wrote: That's the real question isn't it? Where is the line. Shivo is an easy guess, as said; pull the plug on the resperator...

But where do we draw the line? People who suffer from cancer with slim to no chance to survive but they aren't on life support? Alzheimers?

Personally, I think, when the medical care switches to 'make comfortable' from cure or rehabilitate, the option of suicide should come into play. IMO anyway.
Shouldn't the line be up to the person suffering combined with medical recommendations on their condition from Doctors? If they're so ill they can barely move without assistance, and there's no foreseeable cure, then that seems to be like a good qualifier imo.
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Post by Knife »

General Zod wrote:
Knife wrote: That's the real question isn't it? Where is the line. Shivo is an easy guess, as said; pull the plug on the resperator...

But where do we draw the line? People who suffer from cancer with slim to no chance to survive but they aren't on life support? Alzheimers?

Personally, I think, when the medical care switches to 'make comfortable' from cure or rehabilitate, the option of suicide should come into play. IMO anyway.
Shouldn't the line be up to the person suffering combined with medical recommendations on their condition from Doctors? If they're so ill they can barely move without assistance, and there's no foreseeable cure, then that seems to be like a good qualifier imo.
Meh, yes and no. A living will should contain such info in case a person has a sudden illness that incapacitates them, etc... Or you know, your significant other that has that same info. Granted, the living will is better.

Especially in the case of something like Alzhiemers, where mental capability can be shitcanned in a hurry. I'd also leave out the interdisplinary team, doc's and such. As much as I am for some semblence of assitend suicide, I'm squimish about a Doctor making the call, conflict of interest and all that.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by General Zod »

Knife wrote:
Meh, yes and no. A living will should contain such info in case a person has a sudden illness that incapacitates them, etc... Or you know, your significant other that has that same info. Granted, the living will is better.

Especially in the case of something like Alzhiemers, where mental capability can be shitcanned in a hurry. I'd also leave out the interdisplinary team, doc's and such. As much as I am for some semblence of assitend suicide, I'm squimish about a Doctor making the call, conflict of interest and all that.
Naturally the final choice should be up to the individual themselves and the family. However, I was thinking the Doctors would only be there as semi impartial advisers. They could provide a prognosis on the patient's condition and suggest how likely it is that they could improve, but not have the authority to actually recommend a suicide. This way they could step in to suggest that the family reconsider if there may be a good chance of recovery, and override it if the chances of recovery are good, but otherwise not stand in the way if it can be a legitimate option. (In the case of Schiavo).
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Post by Knife »

General Zod wrote:
Naturally the final choice should be up to the individual themselves and the family. However, I was thinking the Doctors would only be there as semi impartial advisers. They could provide a prognosis on the patient's condition and suggest how likely it is that they could improve, but not have the authority to actually recommend a suicide. This way they could step in to suggest that the family reconsider if there may be a good chance of recovery, and override it if the chances of recovery are good, but otherwise not stand in the way if it can be a legitimate option. (In the case of Schiavo).
Well, a patient has the right to know his/her prognosis, or in the case of mental incapacitation, legal guardian. But yeah, I think we're on the same page now.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by B5B7 »

Here's a word - HYPOCRISY.
If society made every effort to keep alive people who wanted to live (& whose continued life had meaning, so therefore excluding the braindead kept artificially alive using up medical resources that could be used for the living - such as Schiavo), eg Christopher Reeve didn't want to die; then society would maybe have some say in any decision you may make to take your life.

The same people who oppose euthanasia support capital punishment (not all of them but there is a strong correlation) and also the idea that an embryo has more right to life than an actual human. If they had $100,000 to either save an embryo or a person they would save the useless embryo (which would have to end up being flushed anyway as it can not mainttain an independent existence). They have no real respect for human life - they would happily support slavery, genocide, etc (again some exceptions).

It may seem that I am being a bit rough and exaggerating, but there are moral mindsets - that each contain a package of beliefs. The Catholoics are a bit more consistent than neo-cons/fundamentalists in their beliefs [though in practice fail to do as much as they could] in that they do oppose capital punishment. However, both groups do a lot of harm with their beliefs.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: That's totally unrelated to euthanasia, because if they'd just pulled the plug on her respirator she would have died quite naturally.
I'd argue that it wasn't euthanasia because for all intents and purposes, she had already died.

However, in her case, their pulling of her feeding tube was due to not having any more humane options available, as they were all blocked or illegal. They couldn't have simply used chemistry to painlessly stop her vital functions, so instead had to starve her. Way to go, pro-lifers, huh?
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Post by Broomstick »

I would really like to point out a recurring error about Shiavo:

1) She was NOT on a respirator

2) She was NOT braindead - she was in a persistant vegative state

Please, accuracy counts in these matters
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Post by Xon »

Justforfun000 wrote:I'd also like to say in response to Broomstick's post above that I personally wouldn't consider assisting someone with suicide in the right circumstances "murder". Isn't murder taking someone's life from them AGAINST their will?.
No, the definition of murder is unlawful killing.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Gil Hamilton wrote:However, in her case, their pulling of her feeding tube was due to not having any more humane options available, as they were all blocked or illegal. They couldn't have simply used chemistry to painlessly stop her vital functions, so instead had to starve her. Way to go, pro-lifers, huh?
I saw a doctor being interviewed about other incidents of feeding tubes being pulled. Apparently the patient doesn't suffer even if they are fully alert and concious. They just slowly get weaker, drift off to sleep, and fade away.
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Post by Dominus Atheos »

Euthanasia and Doctor-assisted Suicide are two different things. Euthanasiais the doctor is killing the patient. Doctor-assisted suicide is when a physician or other medical professional gives patients the means to kill themselves. Usually leaving a lethal amount of medication (eg, a bottle of sleeping pills) in the patients possession to do with what they want.

I suppose could see how someone might be against the former, but I can't understand how anyone could have a problem with Doctors who do the latter.
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Post by B5B7 »

DA - you are making a technical distinction that frankly is dubious [heh, the killer is Saw movies is not a murderer as he gives his victims the choice and means to save themselves - he doesn't kill them].
Also, I disagree with "your" definition of Euthanasia as [mercy killing] a doctor killing a patient - that is just a methodology.
Mercy killing does not require any input from person killed, whereas as a general principle euthanasia involves a person deciding to end their own life.

To me Euthanasia is the freedom to kill oneself by means that are not messy, painful and dangerous/harmful to others (suicide by cop, jumping off a cliff or in front of a car, etc). Society only wants doctors involved to interfere with the person's decision to take their own life (because of fear that they might be being pressured by others to take their own life), and whilst doctors provide the means to take one's own life it is possible to achieve the obtaining of the means to kill oneself other than through or by a doctor.

Living Wills are part of the process of making the decision less in the hands of doctors, and more in one's own hands.

Basically, what you are calling Doctor-asisted suicide is what I think Euthanasia should be, but as one method of achieving goal and others are possible eg that one could get a judge to grant one a special pharmaceutical scrip that one could take to a pharmacist to get appropriate drugs.

Ideally, there would be no involvement of doctors, judges, etc but these are involved as society's means to protect others from those who would abuse any method of easy self-kill to kill others.
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

1. Essentially, Euthanasia is a tool for minimizing unwanted or unnecessary suffering. It literally means the provision of "good death". There is active and passive, direct and indirect.

Suicide could be considered, and I have seen it as such, as self-euthanasia. When a doctor or individual helps another person engage commit suicide by giving him the means, he's engaging in facilitated indirect euthanasia facilitated self-euthanasia.


2. I am not against Euthanasia in principle. I think people should have the option of eliminating their suffering if they are terminally ill, can't be helped. If they are capable of reasoning, they should be able to choose in those situations. This includes by both psychological and physical suffering when it cannot be helped and life is not worth living due.

I am wary of allowing suicide in some instances because people don't live in bubbles. They might have strong ethical duties toward others or obligations toward people that might outweigh their desire to die or at least mitigate their claim to the right to suicide, depending on the seriousness of their reasoning for wanting death. You need to factor in the impact of death on all parites affected, weighted for that seriousness, and give equal consideration for like interests.


For instance, one would have less justification for wanting to kill oneself if one's not in pain that's inescapable or in serious condition and is simply bored, but at the same time, has many dependents who will suffer economically, emotionally if he dies. Being bored doesn't absolve someone of duties to family, friends, creditors, etc.

I am not sure about a duty to die, though. I have thought about it, and I can see that, in some instances at leasts, people in some situations may have a lesser claim to continued life depending on the consequences to others should they continue to live. The duty to die becomes stronger if you have already lived a long, fulfilling life and your continuation will have significant life impacts on others for relatively little gain to yourself. For example, if you are a vegetative state, very old, and terminal. One of my old ethics texts had cases wherein people have spent their live savings keeping a vegetative family member alive, only for that terminal unaware person never to experience life again. The lives of the family was ruined keep that person alive. The family suffered and the recipient gained little or nothing from it.

In other cases, I am not sure how much someone should need to sacrifice for another. It becomes ambiguous how much of a burden is too much.

One article you might want to read, I found it interesting, was "A Duty to Die."

A Duty to Die


A citation:
One part of the recent SUPPORT study documented the financial aspects of caring for a dying member of a family. Only those who had illnesses severe enough to give them less than a 50% chance to live six more months were included in this study. When these patients survived their initial hospitalization and were discharged, about 1/3 required considerable caregiving from their families, in 20% of cases a family member had to quit work or make some other major lifestyle change, almost 1/3 of these families lost all of their savings, and just under 30% lost a major source of income.[5]
Personally, I wouldn't want to destroy my family's savings, life, or seriously burden them so I could have a small chance of living a few extra months. I would rather die at that stage.
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Post by mingo »

Dr Kevorkian Lived in the town immediately to my north until he went to prison. It's my perception that he WANTED to go to prision. After our county prosecutor embarrassed himself a number of times, charging him with murder, taking 17 sheriff's deputies to arrest him and then losing the case, over and over again, we elected a new prosecutor. The state supreme court kept saying "there IS no law against assisted suicide, pass a law and we'll enforce it." Well the next Prosecutor ran on, and I voted for him, on the promise that he would not charge Kevorkikian unless there were relevant changes in the case. Dr Jack then fired the bulldog he had as a lawyer, filmed his actions and broadcast them on TV, and hacked up the body of the deceased , showing up at a local hospital to "donate" the kidneys for transplant.

Is Dr Jack insane? I don't know if he's ever been diagnosed, but his actions certainly give one pause. I fully support the idea that patients SHOULD be able, within some controlled parameters to decide to end their lives. I also think Dr Kevorkian set the cause back many years with his dog and pony show.
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