Target practice (2008-07-22)

[Darth Ruinus]

ignoring that it takes a fraction of a second (How many shots a second do those guns involve.)

The heavy guns on the Acclamators fire 1 shot every 2 seconds IIRC.

[Wyrm]

MORON BOB IS BACK, WITH A WHOLE NEW (old) GAME:

--CUT HERE--

Dear Sith Lord Thomas

Your last messages are getting so long and convoluted, it getting impossible for you to follow, and your getting more confused, so I'll start over.

_I'm_ getting confused? You're the one with the slippery grasp on physics and logic, cupcake. No, the only one confused was you.

New Calculations. The Energy out put of a 200 gigaton blast would be 5.4x10*28J. Using EU figures this is 15,000 X the out put of an early SD, so how could a SD put out such a blast?

How do you calculate the SD's power levels in the first place? Cite your data and show your work.

How could A SD generate a shield that could resist such a force? In "Rise" Voyager's crew says they only need to reduce the asteroid to fragments of 1 centimeter or less, the atmosphere will do the rest.

Yes. The torpedo was to _shatter_ the asteroid, not _vaporize_ it. Different animal, requiring different energy.

In the case of the 40 meter asteroid zapped by the SD the same 1 centimeter rule would work just as well, and would look like vaporization on screen.

No, it would not. There was a bright flash (indicating heating to incandecence) and orange glowing remnants left behind which disappated away into invisibility within fractions of a second. Were the asteroid shattered, and that glow being residual thermal energy left in the chunks, they would still be visible because for the rest of the shot they would still be very, very hot. Space is actually a very good insulator, as the only way for heat to escape is by radiation. The asteroid was vaporized.

But then again, you don't know physics.

44 megatons should do the job for the asteroid in "Rise" so about 45 kt should do it in the TESB.

Prove the 44 megaton figure. Because the approximate yield needed to fragment a 400 m asteroid (assuming it's spherical) is 11.6 kT assuming granite (it's not even that strong, because you can crack the asteroid material open with a single swing of a pickaxe), a far cry from your 44 MT levels.

The 40 meter asteroid has a bit more then 1,000th the mass of the 390 meter asteroid in "Rise".

True, but it takes far more energy to vaporize something than to merely blast it to bits.

Here I have to cop to a mistake I've made: the 200 GT figure is for the Venerator heavy turbolaser canons. To vaporize a nickel-iron asteroid 40 m in diameter requires about half a megaton (479.1 kT). This means that the lower limit of the SD light turbolaser canon (and we know it's the light turbolaser because the bolt comes from the "edge" of the SD's dagger) is about half a megaton per shot (2000 TJ).

The energy problems for planetary shields are even worse because according to the your bible the EU hypermatter is not used on planets, so ground based shields have to be using less efficient power sources. All this indicates that both weapon, and shield power are many magnitudes lower then mike dreamed up. More like the multi kiloton range.

The EU is not my bible. It can and is overridden often by the films on many facts (the Executor length, for instance). However, the films do not say a lot of things, and where the films say nothing, the EU can say something.

Again, you have a distinct lack of calculations to back you up.

In your last post you say there are no planetary shields in "The Clone Wars" Because it's the end of a long period of peace, so no one had time to repair them or build new ones. Interesting before this you had been claiming they were used in the CWs, and were the cause of prolonged sieges. In fact you clamed their existence justified the creation of the DS, so they were in use in the Galactic rebellion. So at the time of the establishment of the empire no planets have shields, but the empire let them be built?

When did I claim this, cunt? The Clone Wars were a protracted period of time. At the beginning, planets were largely unprepared. Then a few planets got DBZed, and the richer worlds started building and repairing their planetary shield systems in response to the threat of BDZs, so eventually they could only be used on planets that couldn't afford them.

The Empire was _after_ the Clone Wars. Everyone who was going to build a planetary shield had one at that time.

The same energy problems hold true in the period of the rebellion as the CW. The basic issue if planetary shields exists or not rest on a few frames of film. Fan fiction sprang up based on the frames, and collapsed because the "shield effect" is gone on DVD.

It's _not_ gone, cupcake. It's more sublte in the DVD, but the positive proof is _still there_. Simply beginning the argument again does not absolve you from the responsibility of answering my rebuttals before you get to use your arguments again. Get to it.

There not shown or mentioned, in the movies or canon sources.

Bullshit. You have yet to answer _any_ of my rebuttals on these matters. You saying that planetary shields are not in the canon does not make it so. You saying the EU is not canon does not make it so. You do not get to dismiss the EU as canon until you answer my rebuttals. You do not get to dismiss novelization evidence of planetary shields until you answer my rebuttals. Get to it.

The idea of SDs slaging planets evolved from West End Games. At first it needed a fleet to do it, then other writers each tried to top each other, till you get to Mike topper. So completing the circle you think you need planetary shields.

And then it entered the EU, whereupon it became canon and added more evidence for the existence of shields

Oh and how could I forget 500 km asteroids, were did that come from?

You shithead, I already told you what that was all about! Did you dump every memory of our argument when you started a new e-mail? A rat has a longer memory than you do!

Star Trek Speed. Ok so now you concede they can do better then .5 C? You just don't think they can turn at that speed? In "The Corbamite Maneuver" the Enterprise brakes away from Balok's tractor beam, with a full power surge of both impulse, and warp power. When she broke free she sheered to port by more then 45 degrees.

Delta-V for this maneuver?

In many episodes we saw the original Enterprise make Sharpe turns at warp speed.

Delta-V?

At Aminar 7 The Enterprise shifted from orbit out of the range of ground based disruptor fire in seconds. In Voyager we see numerous high speed turns, that's the whole point of evasive tactics. When your trying to dodge the Doomsday machine, or the Borg you turn at high speed. We have never seen big ships perform evasive maneuvers in SW. From what we saw in TESB when 2 SDs bump each other, and a third comes close maneuvering is poor and speed in normal space is relatively low. If the speed was higher the 2 ships that collided would have exploded, and taken out the 3rd SD.

Calculate the Delta-V required for all of these maneuvers. Get to it.

Canon. You should stop and read what you say some time. "Nevermind that no NORMAL person would interpet George Lucas quotes to mean that the EU is a seperate universe." Except that he said "It's not my universe" and that "It's some kind of parallel universe." There's nothing to interpret he says it plainly, "It's not my universe." It has no effect on the movies, which is his universe. If you were taking with George Lucas, and you told him he wasn't "normal" because he didn't realize the EU was part of his universe, he would turn away from you as a "Wac Job". You think you know more about SW then he does. He's wrong? Lucas doesn't understand the implications of what he's saying? He just doesn't know things like planetary shields, and torpedo spheres are part of his universe? He doesn't know about hypermatter, or he wouldn't have shown plasma held in magnetic fields in ROTJ. So Tomas if you want to see an abnormal, or at least an irrational person look in a mirror.

Where to begin... You're an dumbass. That's always a good way to start.

YOU and Darkstar are the only people I said were not normal, cupcake. Indeed, the very fact that George Lucas _is_ normal is *precisely* the reason why his talk of universes doesn't mean that the EU doesn't count: normal people don't use words precisely; and normal people don't expect other people to use words precisely. "Universe", in fact, has multiple meanings, the precise meaning must be _decided by context_. This is why your analysis of the SENTENCE FRAGMENT, "universe", is fallicious: you are pretending to know _exactly_ that George Lucas meant "universe" to mean much the same thing as cosmologists mean when they say "the Universe," without reference to the rest of the intreview.

Here's an example of what I mean — a statement by George Lucas, this time for the August/September 1999 issue of SW Insider: "Part of the job of the director is to sort of keep everything in line, and I can do that in the movies—but I can't do it on the whole Star Wars universe." Oops, George has just admitted that others participate in the Star Wars story!

By the way, George Lucas never said "It's not my universe," or "It's some kind of parallel universe." So you lied.

So answer ALL my points, cupcake, or the EU is in.

Automated systems & fire control. This seems to keep going over your head. Imperial SDs were built with in 20 years of the first movies and they have massive manning requirements. if they could have designed them with automatic systems they would have. Their are so many inherent advantages to doing it that way there could be no doubt they would if they could.

YOU say that automation can reduce the massive manning requirements of SDs. Prove it, cupcake.

In a ANH Vader's SD captures the Tantive by disabling it's engines, tractoring, then boarding it. When you observe the rate of fire from the SD you see a shot every second or two, most of which miss, until one hits the engine. Hard to imagine not hitting the engine on that ship, being that it took up the whole aft end of it. The question was a critical hit.

Liar. They hit the _main reactor_, which is well ahead of the engines, and very much smaller.

We see no cone of fire, to control movement, just a slow steady rate of fire. This poor shooting was form a few kms against a large none maneuvering target.

I already explained about controlling your enemy's movments through bracketing fire. The fire was to _keep_ the target non-moving.

In the "Changeling" the Enterprise hit Nomad with a torpedo from 90,000 km and it was 1 meter long and not even 1 foot wide.

Prove it. Prove the Enterprise hit Nomad from the distance you say. Especially in the face of the later TNG generation that often miss: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBDbVPimLB0

You're only answer is that targeting had deteriorated. Must be more of that lost tech...

HUD. You still don't know what a HUD is fanboy. A Heads Up Display. It lets a pilot see his instrument panel, while looking outside the cockpit. Instrument readings are projected onto the inside of the canapé SW fighters don't have it, pilots have to look at their instrument panels for data, and targeting. The targeting system for the PT in a ANH used a bulky eye piece on a swing mount. What kind of sensors are you saying a stupid trooper has? They seem to not be able to see people unless there right in front of them. They seem to use radio even at short range, so they must be almost deaf. They use speakers to talk to people next to them. Luke checks his ears after he takes the helmet off.

I say again, you are the ONLY one pretending to know what information the stormtrooper helmet's HUD would display in detail. You are the ONLY one claiming that, had Luke been able to turn it on, he could make sense of all the information he'd been displaying. You are the ONLY one claiming that a near-ignorant country farmboy from the sticks would even know how to turn the HUD, let alone have the training to use it properly. These are extraordinary claims, and they require extraordinary proof. Get cracking, cupcake.

Also, since you could've read this information online and copied it to your message (there is precident for you copypasta-ing arguments), I'm calling bullshit that you even know what the hell you even posted.

Replicates. We don't know enough about the limitations of the technology. Guess work on my part would be that similar matter is easier to convert. Organic matter turned into other forms of food pretty easy. Base metals reshaped and so on. Transmutation harder. Very exotic substances that are massively dense, or have unique energy properties would need massive amounts of energy, so it's not cost effective. Like trying to create plutonium by starting with Sodium.

Here's a short list of substances replicators can't replicate: caviar ("Sins of the Father"), warp cores ("Phantasms"), magnetite (magnesium carbonate; "Firstborn"), yamok sauce and stem bolts ("Progress"). Yamok sauce and caviar — food items. Magnetite — magnesium is an essential nutrient, and carbonate is carbon and oxygen. Warp cores and stem bolts — if its similarity of matter that's important, why not just dump the raw materials in one end and get a warp core or stem bolt out the other?

By the way, thank you for confirming that replicators don't eliminate scarcity. I already knew that from the fact that the Federation still had money.

Plasma. By it's nature plasma is hot enough to burn though any normal matter, that's why it's held in magnetic fields like in the DSs. Unless you think SW plasma is hotter then ST plasma, ha,ha,ha,ha.

Prove the glowy stuff is plasma. Furthermore, a plasma that tenuous would not burn through anything. Instead, it would instantly cool and become hot gas, which you can't confine. That's why plasma is held in magnetic fields.

Space Flight. Your verbal dribble about the science of doing loops in space is just making a bigger fool of your self. The first rule about being in a hole is to stop digging. Your ego is your undoing, you can't admit you got it wrong.

And yet, you cannot show me WHY I'm wrong. Sorry, but at this point, if you told me the sky was blue, I'd call you a liar.

Claiming this stupidity makes you look smarter, because you were daydreaming about it, and then dragging your scientist father in doesn't help, What does he have to do with it? Thinking that pilots can't spend a few days in a cockpit shows how little you know.

Not in a cockpit like THAT! Wanna prove otherwise? Produce an airforce study saying someone can effectively fight after sitting in his flight suits for 5-6 days in a cramped cockpit like an F-14.

What do you think happened in the early space race days. Vostox 5 was a 1 man capsule, and the flight lasted 5 days.

And they had to wear bulky space diapers. You can wick away the pee, but the shit stays where it is.

Luke's trip too and from Dagoba, must have taken a few days each way.

Prove it. This argument assumes that the trip to Degobah took days instead of a few hours.

So much for crossing the whole galaxy in a few hours.

If you want the shit and pee to prove days-long travel, show the contents of Luke's diaper. What? You can't? Awwww...

I did't say Solo watched for Imperial slugs for days, I said the trip to Alderaan took days.

You know the conversation that I cited took place shorly before arriving at Alderaan, like less than an hour. Han was carrying people wanted by the Empire, he would watch until he made sure he had lost the tail, or he's so concieted that he'd immediately assume he had lost the tail. He would not wait 'till days later to boast that he'd lost them.

Caretaker's Array. You have a lot of trouble following a logical progression. The Kazon ship was bigger then a SD and ramming the array was not enough to do fatal damage. The Tricolbolt Devices blow it apart. The warhead explosions enveloped most of the array blowing it apart, only then did secondary explosions take place. What we can draw from this is that the TCDs are magnitudes more destructive then the collision was. Those explosions must have been beyond the range of normal PT, in excess of 100 megatons, to do what they did.

Lie. It took about three seconds between the initial explosions (the trocobalt devices) to the main explosion, which destroyed the Array. That's a reactor cooking off.

Ordering Suicide. You seem to take it so lightly that men would be told to kill them selves on a whim. Any combat, or even a training situation is about risk, but war is about calculated risk, not the whims of mad men.

Madmen with spooky and lethal mental powers. Who are in the high eschellons of the government, and you are honor-bound to obey.

Going into the asteroid field cost the empire thousands of men, a SD, several fighters, damage to a number of other ships, and a huge cost to moral. Putting the big ships in the field put them at risk, and added nothing to the effort to flushing the MF, so their losses were for nothing. If the stupidity about shutting off the shields was true, they lost a major ship and thousands of men on a stupid whim. If that became known in the fleet moral would be badly damaged. A fanboy like you wouldn't understand what that means. "The scary Sith Lord would keep giving them orders, and fear of death would make them obey." This is a rebellion defections would become endemic. The men have some place to go. "Me be we should defect before are own side kills us?" Men are not machines, they want to live. There are limits to what terror will get you. A demoralized military, and an apathetic population.

All of this ASSUMES that the asteroids would cause serious damage, an assertion that _you have not yet established_!

Summing up you are now conceding tactical speed, maneuverability, CCC, and automation, to ST. By conceding ST ships don't need to do controlling movement tactics, ha,ha,ha, to target critical systems your conceding they have superior fire control. Your argument about range was pathetic so the overwhelming evidence gives ST dozens of times the range. Since you don't need 100% energy conversion on the asteroids, (and you can't possible get 200 gigatons of energy) and all your fire power calculations are based on this fallacy, your fire power is reduced to 45 kt which is less then 1/1,000 power of a PT, and 2,000x less then a QT. Fire power is far lower then ST, with weaker shielding. That leaves the empire with tactically marginal fighters, and possible higher strategic movement, and a larger but less efficient industrial base. On the other hand since a SD is 20 x the volume of a Sovereign class starship the empire needs 20 x the industrial capacity to build one.

None of which you prove, so this amounts to exactly jack and shit, and Jack has left the building.

Bigger ships cost more, and need more resources. It's the size thing fanboy. it some times works against you.

Sorry, trektard, when you fling fallacies and outright lies left and right, I wouldn't trust you to tell me your shoe size.

[PeZook]

His Vostok example is retarded: The only reason Vostok 5 took 5 days was that the Soviets were aiming at the Moon, and Earth spaceflight technology is primitive, so they had no choice but to do it in cramped quarters. If they could send a giant space cruiser to the Moon, they would've kept their cosmonauts in nice comfy quarters equipped with showers and porn DVDs, only stuffing them into cramped landers for the landing itself.

None of the idiots proposing 5-6 days for the flight to Endor have ever explained why the X-Wings were launched almost a week before they expected them to enter combat, when they had huge space cruisers accompanying them

[Peptuck]

Your argument about range was pathetic so the overwhelming evidence gives ST dozens of times the range. Since you don't need 100% energy conversion on the asteroids, (and you can't possible get 200 gigatons of energy) and all your fire power calculations are based on this fallacy, your fire power is reduced to 45 kt which is less then 1/1,000 power of a PT, and 2,000x less then a QT. Fire power is far lower then ST, with weaker shielding. That leaves the empire with tactically marginal fighters, and possible higher strategic movement, and a larger but less efficient industrial base. On the other hand since a SD is 20 x the volume of a Sovereign class starship the empire needs 20 x the industrial capacity to build one.

The best part is how he doesn't back any of this up at all, and he even says that you can't get 200 gigatons because "you can't possible get 200 gigatons". But then, we've already seen this idiot refuses to recognize argument from incredulity.

[Darth Wong]

It reminds me of the fundies who will respond to a long dissertation about evolutionary evidence by saying "there is still no real evidence for evolution". What they mean is "there is no evidence that I choose to acknowledge", which is the same thing the fundies do. And then they make vague allusion to evidence of their own, which doesn't really lead to their conclusions but they don't know that.

Think about the kind of mental blind spot that it takes to ignore the Death Star, around which the plots of ANH and ROTJ both revolved, as if it's a knock-off outlier and has nothing to do with the technological or industrial base of the Empire.

[Wyrm]

Latest rounds:

--FIRST MESSAGE--

Hello Dreaded Sith Lord Thomas

Listen dork you lost the argument. all your saying is prove it,

I proved my shit. All I got from you was fallacy after lie after fallacy after grandstanding after lie after fallacy. Time to produce some _real_ evidence and arguments, bucko.

and if you said the sky was blue I would disagree with you.

Lie. I told you, if _you_ told _me_ the sky was blue, I'd call _you_ a liar, on account that you lied to me so often before. When you lie, you lose something called "trust". Look it up.

You sound like a total fool. The 40 meter rock glows so it has to have been a 100% conversion to energy, with no consequent explosion.

Lie. The glow would be caused by heat. Heat causes things to expand. Heat causes things to vaporize. Hot gas causes mechanical stress, hence explosions. Hamsters know better than this, cupcake.

Cosmonaughts had baggy suits, what the fuck does that have to do with any thing idiot. If they could fly in a little capsule for 5 days so could space pilots fool, it's already been done, get it.

Only because they had to, moron. They were in a race against us to the moon. If they could lauch huge, spacious curisers to stay in for the trip, they would, and stuff themselves into cramped landers only for the landing.

You have yet to answer that point, either. Why couldn't the Rebellion just stop a hour away from Endor, drop off their X-wings, and reenter hyperspace, and have a flight of fighters with fresh, rested, clean, well-fed fighter pilots, instead of fighter pilots wallowing in their own filth? Answer the damn point.

The Enterprise in "Balance of Terror" is doing .5 C and pulls a 180 degree turn in 10 seconds you do the math genius.

YOU do the math! _You're_ the who wants to prove ST high maneuverablity. I'm not going to do your job FOR you.

The data on an early SD comes from the EU. 3.6x10*24watts

WHICH source?

a 200 gigaton bomb would put out 21.6x10*29 watts ( sorry not J) 40,000xthe 50 megaton Russian H bomb set off in 1961.

Another failure of math! A megaton is 4.184e15 _joules_ (J). A joule does not become a watt no matter how big the number you multiply it by.

I say again, spaceflight is such hard shit that any galactic civilization worth it's salt ought to be able to sterilize a planet easily. Your keens of incredulity are worthless. Calculations, bitch, calculations.

Automation replaces manpower, look it up you brain dead fool. what the hell do you think it means?

Cite the Navy statement that THEIR automated targeting system replaces manpower. Don't pretend it's obvious, because if the auto-system fails, and you don't have crew backup, you're a sitting duck.

Your such a dork, Voyager only wanted to brake the 390 meter asteroid up a little, the SD needed do a 100% energy conversion of a 40 meter rock, what a fool. When you have some thing better then Prove it let me know dork.

Again, no calculations proving that the energy requirements were larger for Voyager's PT than it was for the SD light turbolasers. How surprising.

P.S. The fact that no planetary shields will appear in the CW movie will of course have no effect on you.

The Clone Wars and ANH were separated by about twenty years, you fuckhead. Large projects take a while to complete.

So the no one who sees the movie will have any idea they exist unless they talk to some in the know like you, not even George Lucas.

You have yet to dismiss a SINGLE ONE of my arugments establishing planetary shields. Get cracking, cupcake.

Yamok Sauce and Stem bolts, that was a comedy smuck like you.

And yet your oh-so-wonderful replicators... CAN'T REPLICATE EITHER!

--SECOND MESSAGE--

I proved my shit. All I got from you was fallacy after lie after fallacy after grandstanding after lie after fallacy. Time to produce some _real_ evidence and arguments, bucko.

You proved nothing you just replyed, by say "prove it."

You have a short memory, moron! I demolished your copypasta of Darkstar's "No Alderaan Shield" argument, and you only replied that the DVD proved me wrong, even though it is the very DVD images that were the subject of analysis. I demolished every other one of your main arguments, and every counterpoint you've raised! Your turn to hold up your end of the argument, cupcake!

<snip>

That's guessing at a special effect, like the planetary shields. There's no dialogue or any other plot reason in the story to believe that much energy was needed,

The visuals are MORE reliable than dialogue, cupcake! Dialogue is shaped by emotion, state of mind, intelligence and current knowledge; the visuals just show what happened. Visuals are superior to dialogue in EVERY WAY. Scientists don't rely on testimonials; they rely on _physical data_.

What proof do you have that the asteroid was converted to energy?

"Converted to energy"? You think "vaporization" is converting matter to energy?! AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!

What proof that none of it was reduced to small shards?

Small shards would still be very hot, and radiating blackbody radiation, IDIOT!

Why did they need to convert it to energy? Why didn't the back blast of a 200 gigaton blast destroy the SD? From that distance could you see small shards? What was the rock made of? If it was light and hollow, with a lot of ice, and dust it could have flared up like a torch. Why are all your so called calculations based on the highest numbers you can imagine? It's iron, and it's a 100% energy conversion event.

Wipe the rabid drool from your mouth, you unschooled idiot. Even if I explain it to you, you'll never understand, Mr. I-Think-Vaporization-Converts-Matter-to-Energy!

<snip>

Asshole that's what we saw in the movie, and the novel. They go in at Sullust, and come out at Endor days later. The Rebels may expect their pilots to use pop bags, but at least they don't order them to kill them selves like the Empire.

Liar. The film's PG; we wouldn't see _any_ poop bags! And quote the damn text word-for-word with a page number. Don't allude to it, because you're credibility is in the toilet.

<snip>

Asshole why do I have to do a math calculation? They did, so it happened whether or not I do a calculation of how much thruster power it took. If you want to know how much power it took you do the math.

_You_ made the claim they have these oh-so-awesome thrusters, _you_ come up with the evidence that they *are* oh-so-awesome. ASSHOLE!!

The data on an early SD comes from the EU. 3.6x10*24watts

WHICH source?

Lazy asshole goggle hypermatter get Ventnor SD.

A _WEB SOURCE_?!?!?! AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! Do you know where web sources fit in the Star Wars canon? NOWHERE!!!! Find the relevant text in a real canon source, shithead.

<snip>

a 200 gigaton bomb would put out 21.6x10*29 watts ( sorry not J) 40,000xthe 50 megaton Russian H bomb set off in 1961.

Another failure of math! A megaton is 4.184e15 _joules_ (J). A joule does not become a watt no matter how big the number you multiply it by.

Google tsar bomb smuck read the notes about it's energy out put. Also take a look at the notes about the dino killer on that page, and then get you head out of your ass.

Googlepedia is no substitute for REAL KNOWLEDGE, cupcake! Look up "Joule" and "Watt" in any physics textbook. Oh, you don't have any. Go to the library and ask for a book on science. I'm afraid there will be a lot of words, but there will probably be some nice pictures to look at. And put the crayons away.

And I _know_ what order energy 200 GT is, and where it is in relation to a Tsar Bomba. I say again, any galactic civilization worth its salt ought to be able to sterilize a planet, your arguments from incredulity not withstanding. Kzinti Lesson again.

<snip>

Smuck what does the word automation mean? Saving lador. A single 5" mount in WWII had a crew of 15. Today it's 3, and their below deck. After the first 20 rounds are fired they reload. If they need to those 3 can take over control of the gun. Automation doesn't mean no back up stations dupe. My ship had CIC, and 2 missile rooms, any one of them could have fought the ship, like ST ships have agcilarary control, emergency manual monitor, and engineering. It seems when SW ships lose the bridge the ship is finished.

Cite. The. Navy. Statement. ASSHOLE!

Remember, I believe NOTHING you say without a source!

<snip>

The Asteroid was 1,000 times bigger, and was going to hit a planet smuck. They said they needed to make sure it was reduced to fragments no bigger then 1 centimeter. If Darkstar had used Mike's megalomaniac method of calculations he would have said the PT put out 200 teratons. So in trying to save the planet they would have destroyed it.

Liar. Mike's calculations put it at 11.6 _kilo_tons, he puts the exact calculation that needs to be performed on his webpages. He also puts the ultimate source of the data and form of the calculations; see the Asteroid Destruction Calender notes.

P.S. The fact that no planetary shields will appear in the CW movie will of course have no effect on you.

The Clone Wars and ANH were separated by about twenty years, you fuckhead. Large projects take a while to complete.

Follow fuckhead I didn'ts say ANH I said the Empire. The foundation of the Empire was in the last days of the CW. Why would the empire let any one build planetary shields? Your such a dork.

You're an idiot. The cohesion of _any_ empire depends on its ability to defend its territories. If it cannot, then there's no reason to swear allegience to it. Without planetary shields, with powerful fleets able to raze planets so cheap to make, planets become vulnerable to the first big fleet that sweeps in. That means _pirate rule_, with Imperial help hours (or by your contention, DAYS) away, there's plenty of time to raid the planet and be gone, and so swearing allegence to the Empire is useless. _With_ planetary shields, planets can stave off pirate fleets until the Imperial fleet arrives, and they're forced off to more easy pickings. The planetary shields are what allow the Empire to exist in the first place, so yes, they are going to allow them!

The Death Star just ensures that planets don't let their protection lead them to believe they can rebel at any time.

<snip>

You have yet to dismiss a SINGLE ONE of my arugments establishing planetary shields. Get cracking, cupcake.

I have, the special effect is gone. there not in the movies, the CW included, Novelazations, or any canon sources. You can't prove a negative. You can't prove some thing is there because there's no evidence of it. That's like Creationism.

NOTE: There's that outright dismissal of evidence Mike was talking about above!

And yet you are able to answer NONE of my points about the "atmosphere" Darkstar cites is behaving very UN-atmosphere-like, much less human-breathable. If there isn't a shield, why isn't the beam already kicking up debris? You are able to answer none of my points. Answer these points, cupcake, or your protestations "CEEE??? DA SHEELD IZN'T DERE!!" is just so much denial.

Yamok Sauce and Stem bolts, that was a comedy smuck like you.

And yet your oh-so-wonderful replicators... CAN'T REPLICATE EITHER!

It's a joke. Your proving the maxim that fanatics have no sense of humor. You never heard any one say they don't like the taste of processed food? Again it's a joke stupid. Understand? humor? Joke? quark story? May be your a Vulcan Sith. Raised by the Emperor with out logic, just stubbornness, no reason just math, no humor, just rants. I'm sure you'll cut this, it hit's to close to home.[/quote]

AH-HAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Your "purposeful" attempts at humor pale in comparison to your grandstanding bullshit. Everyone on SDN, including me, (you _do_ know I crosspost these messages there, don't you?) finds your elementary blunders in logic, science, tactics, and even real life hillarious. If you really want to make us laugh, cut the jokes and play it straight, because great comedy ain't forced!

[Xess]

Where does he keep getting these hugely inflated numbers for 200 gigatons? That's 8.4x10^20 Joules, or if released over a microsecond like a nuke 8.4x10^26 Watts. That means his Venator source of 3.6x10^24 Watt reactor puts out 857 teratons of energy per second. Can't produce 200 gigatons indeed, moron.

[Darth Wong]

It's really pointless to argue scientific or engineering calculations with someone who has absolutely no clue how to perform real-life scientific or engineering calculations. At best, they will attempt to copy the math from a similar calculation, failing to recognize important scientific or engineering distinctions. At worst, they won't even attempt to duplicate the work themselves at all, and they will simply judge the calculation by their subjective comfort with the result.

Darkstar is the kind of arrogant imbecile who would look at a solution to a 3rd year structural engineering problem, attempt to clumsily copy its methods and apply them to a different structure without any of the background knowledge required, and then declare that any qualified person who disagrees with his work must be an idiot. This guy you're arguing with is even worse: he's the kind of guy who can't even distinguish between what Darkstar does and what a qualified person does.

[PeZook]

First he says SW ships are primitive because every turbolaser gun has a crew of two gunners and an officer, which proves they can't do automation.

Then he starts bragging about his time in the Navy and says...

That very automated US warships also have a crew of three people servicing the gun mount, and that they can take over and fire the gun in an emergency!

I may just be stupid, but didn't he just agree with you?

It's not like SW gunners fire the gun by eye, anyway. "Manual control" probably still uses all sorts of computer assisted targetting, with the gunner just pressing a button. Somewhat like modern warships.

[Aratech]

Where does he keep getting these hugely inflated numbers for 200 gigatons? That's 8.4x10^20 Joules, or if released over a microsecond like a nuke 8.4x10^26 Watts. That means his Venator source of 3.6x10^24 Watt reactor puts out 857 teratons of energy per second. Can't produce 200 gigatons indeed, moron.

That number's what the ROTS ICS gives for a Venator going to maximum power. Mind you, the Venator is more than twenty years obsolete, and only carries about a third as many guns as the Imperator classes.

[Xess]

Where does he keep getting these hugely inflated numbers for 200 gigatons? That's 8.4x10^20 Joules, or if released over a microsecond like a nuke 8.4x10^26 Watts. That means his Venator source of 3.6x10^24 Watt reactor puts out 857 teratons of energy per second. Can't produce 200 gigatons indeed, moron.

That number's what the ROTS ICS gives for a Venator going to maximum power. Mind you, the Venator is more than twenty years obsolete, and only carries about a third as many guns as the Imperator classes.

I know, Bobby boy just can't do math and realize that the figure he thinks is WAY to low for 200 gigatons is actually some 4000 times larger than the required number.

[Wyrm]

Where does he keep getting these hugely inflated numbers for 200 gigatons? That's 8.4x10^20 Joules, or if released over a microsecond like a nuke 8.4x10^26 Watts. That means his Venator source of 3.6x10^24 Watt reactor puts out 857 teratons of energy per second. Can't produce 200 gigatons indeed, moron.

You're right. I should've picked up on that. Well, if he responds, I can hit him with it. He didn't properly cite his figure, so that's enough for now.

[NecronLord]

The really tragic thing is, that there's a very good case to be made that GE ships are over crewed, when one compares them to their clone wars counterparts. However, it eludes him. It also eludes him that if they are, then this is most likely because the GE's solution (much like the nazi solution) to post-war unemployment is to force anyone who's not got a job to take a government job. Say, janitor on a star destroyer, or repairing war damage somewhere. Having surplus crew on board only affects their efficiency in that it'll take them less time to eat their food supplies. In battle, it hardly means there's 'no automation' or anything of the sort.

[Aratech]

Where does he keep getting these hugely inflated numbers for 200 gigatons? That's 8.4x10^20 Joules, or if released over a microsecond like a nuke 8.4x10^26 Watts. That means his Venator source of 3.6x10^24 Watt reactor puts out 857 teratons of energy per second. Can't produce 200 gigatons indeed, moron.

You're right. I should've picked up on that. Well, if he responds, I can hit him with it. He didn't properly cite his figure, so that's enough for now.

I am fondly reminded of the time when I was clashing with Spocktard, and he attempted to use the events of Republic Commando, Triple Zero, in order to dispute fast hyperdrive speeds. In the book, the Omega Squad commandos are stranded and put out a distress call. The nearest ship takes a little over an hour and a half to respond. However, the idiot forgot to look at where the ship was coming from (the Fearless (Venator class ISD) was about 10,000 light years away from their position). I did the math, and Spocky had literally blown his own foot of, because the ISD had pulled nearly fifty five million C to cover the distance like it did).

He then made it a double whammy by attempting to cite the BTM Hyperspace chart, which I went on to prove showed consistent figures with the mid double digit C speeds.

Of course, in brilliant Trektard fashion, he then went on to spew more red herrings...

[Wyrm]

<snip>

Idiot a special effect with out dialogue could be interpreted has anything. Why do you think were arguing about planetary shields?

Because you're a stubborn moron who doesn't know math, physics or how to evaluate evidence, and I'm bored and water my plants with Trektards' tears.

The DVD evidence of Alderaan's destruction does _not_ demolish the theory that Alderaan had a planetary shield, because you don't know shit about science. The feature that you and Darkstar identify as Alderaan's atmosphere _cannot be an atmosphere of any sort_. Furthermore, a planet cannot absorb 1.2e37 J of energy over 1/24 second and NOT be visibly disrupted, implying that something blocked the beam for the moment. You have failed to destroy these arguments, and therefore your "alternate interpretation of the special effect" exists only in your mind.

Like a creationist, you take any offer to discuss the planetary shields as proof that the debate is still live, when in fact the real debate is long over and the people who don't have their head jammed firmly up their asses have already conceeded the debate, and your opponents are only humoring you and hoping to teach you something or get some comedy material.

(And like a creationist, you take refusal to discuss the matter as your opponent forfeiting the match, when it's really just someone refusing to waste his time.)

You see an energy blast hit a 40 meter rock, it flares up and is gone. Mike says that was a 200 gigaton blast Darkstar says it's a lot less.

Mike is a qualified engineer with background in science. Darkstar is an unschooled idiot. The difference should be clear. (Also, 200 GT isn't his lower limit on the ESB blast.)

Based on Darkstars Rise calculation my guess was 45 kt. My own true guess would be a 5 kt tactical Nuke would do the job.

Darkstar is ignorant of the physics of the vaporization energy of a 40 m asteroid and the fragmentation energy of a 400 m asteroid. With such atrocious math, I wouldn't trust him to calculate a restraunt bill. Your guess is completely uninformed by actual knowledge, so it's just about as worthless.

You have finally conceded ST ships are much faster but manly because of stated times and distances, not because of special effects.

Of which I only have your word that the Enterprise made it in that time, an essential part of the calculation. I'm going to retract my concession and demand some real evidence.

On the other hand we see ST ships make tight turns at high speed but you want some kind of mathematical formula before you accept the what you see.

Yes, how dare I demand you produce some objective figures of how awesome ST tech is.

You say the Cruisers did all most all the damage to the SDs at Endor, based on your basic premise that only capital ships can do significant damage to other capital ships. The only on screen damage is delivered by fighters. So you pick and chose what you want to except as a source.

Yes, of course we should assume that capitol ships will do the most damage to capitol ships, until proven otherwise. They have more guns, more powerful guns, and (in the cited instance) shooting at point blank range. Because the canon material does NOT say that the cruisers cause the most damage, and that theory makes the most sense.

Some one showed you a special effect, and you belevleved in planetary shields.

Strawman. It was not just from one special effect. It was a whole bunch of evidence, like the existence of other planetary shield-busting technologies, the existence of BDZs existing with long seiges, and the existence of the Empire itself. The DVD evidence is not incompatible with our theory.

A fan named Mike showed you a calculation of 200 gigatons, and you accepted that.

No reason to doubt it. This is a galaxy-stomping civilization, after all. And it shows up in the ICC. Deal with it.

You read a book that said fighters can't hurt ships so you disbelieved what you saw in the movies.

Because, you know, the movies _don't actually show that_. The fighters hit clear soft targets. Thin-shelled sensor domes... bridges with windows looking spaceward. Can't really armor those, cupcake.

You read in the EU that a fleet of SDs in a deadly asteroid field lowered their shields so they could send holograms to each other, and you accepted that too.

And interestingly, only one of the SDs was damaged in that way, although Vader would expect similar reports from ALL of his squad, the asteroid hit in a vulnerable spot, _and_ the only DEFINITE DAMAGE was that the comms were taken out.

You believe the Imperials sent their fighters to attack the Rebel Cruisers at Endor not to hurt the Cruisers but by attacking the Cruisers they would drew the Rebel fighters after them.

Fucking strawman. I have yet to see a _single frame reference_ from you of a TIE fighter attacking a Rebel cruiser on purpose to prove your claim. All the shots fired were clearly had the fighters as targets. Hell, your theory even _ignores_ the clear evidence of Lando's surprise that only the fighters seemed to be attacking. (1:40:39) "Only the fighters are attacking. I wonder what those Star Destroyers are waiting for." Even HE was puzzled by the lack of Star Destroyer engagement, indicating that _normal_ tactics would be the SDs joining the fight. The question was only resolved when the DS fired on a Rebel cruiser.

In short your all over the place has to how and why you believe any thing, accept any given facts and figures, and you believe a lot of fuck up things.

The only one proposing untennable theories left and right is you, dearheart. The evidence doesn't back you up.

<snip>

Well dork how else do you get to 200 gigatons? What would be left of a 40 meter rock at the center of Mike's 200 gigaton blast?

Vapor. Thin hot vapor is invisible, you know, and in space, the condensed hot vapor of the just vaporized 40 m asteroid would rapidly thin out and become invisible. Conversion from matter to energy would actually be a NEGATIVE change in energy!

<snip>

You do know you sound like a total fool. They do have to shit. Combat pilots and Astronaughts use bags. By the way Tom you head's in the toilet.

How can you tell with your head so far up your ass? Show that the fighter pilots had to use the toilet DURING THAT TRIP, cupcake.

<snip>

So the smuck won't accept a web site as a valid science source, but he sits a fuking sci-fi novel.

Did you know that the Saturn V has the explosive equivalent to a small atom bomb? And that's just to get to the moon and back in a week. Three light seconds in a week. Project Orion proposed using pulsed nuclear explosions to propell it. Elementary rocketry calculations show that an engine with a high specific impulse (high exhaust velocity) and a high thrust (high acceleration) requires high-squared power. The Kzinti Lesson is based on sound physical principles — space travel requires a lot of directed energy, cupcake.

Oh, by the way, the power output of a Venator is indeed 3.6e24 watts. It's in the ROTS:ICC. However, before you start cheering, let's convert this to tons per second (a unit of power): 3.6e24 W = 3.6e24 J/s, (3.6e24 J/s)/(4.184e9 t(ons)/J) = 8.6042065010e14 t/s = 860.4 Tt/s... 860.4 _teratons_ per second! Each second the Venator produces enough energy to shoot _four thousand_ 200 GT shots!

See what a math and science education does for you?

<snip>

You are a true brain dead fool. Saying something like that is childish. The word automation is in the dictionary dummy. Google 5 inch 54, may be you'll learn how do controlling fire. If you watched the original Star Trek those back up command stations would be known to you. So many of you positions are illogical and just silly. You claim a ridiculous axiom about the incredulity of an event not being an argument against it. That's one of the stupidest concepts I ever heard of. That would mean that the most far fetched fancefull junk, including the worst ST stuff ever written science wise is just as realistic, and serious as the best hard science fiction ever written. Capt Janeway,& LT Paris "Evolving" into "Primal" Reptiles.= the novel I Robot. Lost in Space = The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Battle of the Planets = the novel Star Ship Troopers. The Andromeda Strain = Godzilla. The very concept is an affront to reason, science, and good taste. We all love some junky stuff, I even like Godzilla, but don't tell us every thing is = and every thing carries just as much weight.

Blah blah blah. CITE THE NAVY STATEMENT! _Prove_ that, in the real world, a REAL NAVY will reduce their crew numbers because of automated fire control! A bunch of FICTIONAL sources doesn't cut the mustard.

<snip>

So mike thinks a 11.6 kt PT would reduce a 390 meter asteroid to 1 centimeter shards. However he thinks a SD need to use 200 gigatons to destroy a 40 meter asteroid, before it hits them.

First off, I already copped to that error on my part. The 200 GT figure comes from the Venator HTLs. But Mike sets the lower limit on vaping the ESB asteroid from about a third to half a megaton, because that _is_ the energy it takes to vaporize a 40 m diameter ball of granite or iron, as any simple calculation will show. If you dispute the figure, calculate it yourself and show your work. (But we know you won't.)

Secondly, the calculations for disrupting an asteroid mechanically on that page are cited and referenced... from the scientific peer-reviewed literature. This is the cutting edge of real science, cupcake! The melting and vaporization energy should be a no-brainer for anyone with a high-school science background and a few references.

Thirdly, we know that the vaporization before impact thing is really a special effects goof. We know that the visual evidence isn't 100% reliable, but it's a damn sight better than dialogue. We're still supposing that the bolt does damage by direct transfer of energy. Because if the SD does it by remote... well, the Federation is truely fucked.

Again Mike watched the episode with the sound off.

Oh-ho! He should've listened with the sound on, because sound travels _so well_ in space! [/sarcasm] Grab a brain, cupcake. The sound would've done nothing but distract Mike.

He ignores what the characters say, about the tritanium.

No, he didn't. Tritanium (or whatever shit the "Rise" asteroid was laced with) didn't even hold up to the force of a hand-driven _pickaxe_! Even _iron_ holds up better than that! It's the same reason we don't build buildings out of glass.

and you base your assessment on an appraisal of slag.

I thought tritanium was _impossible_ to melt with Federation technology, _including_ photon torpedoes. It wouldn't be slag; it would be unslagged tritanium.

<snip>

You keep saying this stupidity about pirates capturing major planets.

Lie. I said "raiding".

I guess this is more of that credulity principle. A major planet would be one that had a large population, perhaps in the millions. It has a large industrial base, food, it's along trade routs, with dozens of ships a day going in and out. A planet with 10 million people may have 100,000 lightly armed troops on it. Police, customs, coast/air/space/national, guard types. 200,000 lightly armed civilians. They may be at least a military communications center. So to take the planet you need a force that is large enough, to over power the local force, with out taking heavy losses. First they have to get to the planet with out meeting any one merchant or navy on the way. Their ships need to be heaver then the local ships, and they have to carry enough ground troops to take some valuable objectives against apposition and do it fast. They need to be strong enough to hold the objective long enough to loot it, and get away with it back into space. Then they need to get away.

So you need a bigger heaver force then the locals by at least 3-1. Standard attack odds. Just in space. Give the locals 1 real squadron of fighters. 6 converted freighters, 1 defense platform, 1 monitor. 6 light escort ships. The pirates need about 40 corvets, corvets are small escorts. I assume you don't need to occupy the whole planet, so you only need 100,000 well armed ground troops, in 10 transports. You spend a day in space combat and landing. You loss 3 ships, and 5,000 casualties. It takes you 3 days to take the major cities, and 2 days to loot them. On the 7th day you start bringing your forces and loot back up into space, and you'll be ready to jump late on the 8th day. The trouble is on the 5th day 3 SDs show up, after having been alerted on the first day from the com station, and ships entering the system. In a 30min fight 6 corvets surrender, and the rest along with the transports jump away, leaving all the troops and loot on the ground. Hum pirates taking major planets may not be such a good idea, because it's to big and operation and takes to long.

Or, because they lack planetary shields, the pirate fleet (remember, PRIVATE COMPANIES can blockade single worlds. Doncha remember TPM?) can just say, "Give me some loot as tribute or I'll dump a shitload of energy on some unprotected part of your planet and let the resulting firestorm fry all your asses!" A few hours later, a ship comes up with some loot. Mission complete.

<snip>

AH-HAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Your "purposeful" attempts at humor pale in comparison to your grandstanding bullshit. Everyone on SDN, including me, (you _do_ know I crosspost these messages there, don't you?) finds your elementary blunders in logic, science, tactics, and even real life hillarious. If you really want to make us laugh, cut the jokes and play it straight, because great comedy ain't forced!

--

I thought I was funny.

Humor is relative, son. Your serious arguments are so hillarious that it's hard to tell when you're joking. My not typing out my laughter was a courtesy to you; a courtesy that's wearing thin, bucko.

You keep saying I'm grandstanding.

You know I was sharing this with the rest of SDN, where it would be seen. You're a Darktard and you feed off us. You have an audiance, and you're trying to impress me and SDN with you're oh-so-superior knowledge. Grandstanding.

I guess you like the sound of the word how am I grandstanding mathboy? Your the guy who keep telling every one how smart he is. How much science he knows. What a superior person he is.

When I keep proving it, the conclusion is only obvious. Even my supervisor at work thinks you're nuts. (It was a slow day, 'k?)

I acknowledge you know things about abstract physics, and math, and I have said you are a smart guy. but you don't put it together like a lot of other smart guys. I say I know more about military matters.

And fail to demonstrate it. Otherwise, you'd knock down my arguments like the projects. You'd be able to produce proof that the Navy expects their CIC system to reduce crew sizes. But you don't, because you can't.

You on the other hand say you have no respect for any thing I say, and when you start out saying that you have nothing to learn from the person your talking to then your being a fool.

You keep lying. You keep using fallacies. You cannot do math to back up even your most basic arguments. You cannot cite and reference your evidence properly, when you produce them at all. I truly have nothing to learn from you. If I listened to you, I _would_ be a fool.

P.S. I repeat were is the the SD getting the 15,000x energy to produce a 200 gigaton blast?

From their reactors. Even the Venator could produce each second enough energy to shoot four thousand of these blasts. Because you don't know physics and you can't do math.

[PeZook]

THEY'RE NOT CALLED ASTRONAUGHTS OR COSMONAUGHTS YOU FUCKING RETARD!

I'm sorry. Most of the rest is standard Trektard blabber, but this just irked me for some reason.

[Peptuck]

So many of you positions are illogical and just silly. You claim a ridiculous axiom about the incredulity of an event not being an argument against it. That's one of the stupidest concepts I ever heard of. That would mean that the most far fetched fancefull junk, including the worst ST stuff ever written science wise is just as realistic, and serious as the best hard science fiction ever written. Capt Janeway,& LT Paris "Evolving" into "Primal" Reptiles.= the novel I Robot. Lost in Space = The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Battle of the Planets = the novel Star Ship Troopers. The Andromeda Strain = Godzilla. The very concept is an affront to reason, science, and good taste. We all love some junky stuff, I even like Godzilla, but don't tell us every thing is = and every thing carries just as much weight.

Wait a second. Is he honestly trying to justify argument from incredulity?

Wyrm, you've earned my respect for having the patience to deal with this idiot.

[Batman]

So many of you positions are illogical and just silly. You claim a ridiculous axiom about the incredulity of an event not being an argument against it. That's one of the stupidest concepts I ever heard of. That would mean that the most far fetched fancefull junk, including the worst ST stuff ever written science wise is just as realistic, and serious as the best hard science fiction ever written. Capt Janeway,& LT Paris "Evolving" into "Primal" Reptiles.= the novel I Robot. Lost in Space = The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Battle of the Planets = the novel Star Ship Troopers. The Andromeda Strain = Godzilla. The very concept is an affront to reason, science, and good taste. We all love some junky stuff, I even like Godzilla, but don't tell us every thing is = and every thing carries just as much weight.

Wait a second. Is he honestly trying to justify argument from incredulity?

Yep.Happily ignoring that 'I, Robot' WASN'T a novel but a short story collection while he's at it.

Wyrm, you've earned my respect for having the patience to deal with this idiot.[/quote]

[Batman]

Sorry for the fucked up formatting BTW. Wyrm, if you enjoy this, by all means continue, but that guy is NEVER going to see reason. He's either too abysmally stupid, uneducated, or plain UNWILLING to.

[Aratech]

Sorry for the fucked up formatting BTW. Wyrm, if you enjoy this, by all means continue, but that guy is NEVER going to see reason. He's either too abysmally stupid, uneducated, or plain UNWILLING to.

He is good for a laugh though, which my buried-alive-in-law-school-texts brain is sorely in need of. Especially since I've spent the past four freaking hours in my apartment complexes laundromat, because one of the washers has malfunctioned, and I'm still trying to get my clothes dry.


In short, Wyrm: crush him. I wish, if it is not too much trouble, to see this little waste of human brain power squirm.

[Wyrm]

Aratech, I'll do my best to crush him utterly in my next message. I'll be sure to summon up as much vitrol as I can, just for you.

Of course, I'm a nice, patient person by nature. Fortunately, I have a gameplan in progress.

[Batman]

Him squirming would require this sorry excuse for a human being to actually ACKNOWLEDGE he's been trashed and try to find ways to wiggle out of it. He DOESN'T, he just does the same thing he did to me, Servo, and Wyrm so far: blithely ignore any and all rebuttals, ignore canon policy, make up numbers out of thin air/copycat Darkstar (which amounts to the same thing, really) and essentially insisting that Trek is superior without actually ever providing any numbers that would support the notion.
I'm not saying Wyrm should abandon the debate. If he's having fun with it, groovy. If he actually thinks Moron Bob is actually going to CONCEED however, it's a waste of effort.

[Aratech]

Aratech, I'll do my best to crush him utterly in my next message. I'll be sure to summon up as much vitrol as I can, just for you.

Of course, I'm a nice, patient person by nature. Fortunately, I have a gameplan in progress.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/ ... i-2008.jpg

Not exactly Wars/Trek, but I feel it somewhat appropriate.

[Batman]

Wyrm he's been crushed utterly from the word Go. He just refuses to accept it. But hey, if you actually enjoy it, by all means indulge

[Ender]

ignoring that it takes a fraction of a second (How many shots a second do those guns involve.)

The heavy guns on the Acclamators fire 1 shot every 2 seconds IIRC.

THere is nothing canon on the rate of fire. We see the mains on a Venator rip off 3 in 1 second, in ANH the Devestator fires steadily at 1 shot / sec per cannon.