Manticore vs. The Tau

[NecronLord]

Question on Imperial torpedos, how do they hit their targets? Is it a proximity explosion? If not, just some kind of docking thrusters should be enough to dodge them given the travel time.

They have expert system tech. They hunt down their target. The upgraded ones represented in variant rules are simply better at it.

Based on all the previous, unless something else comes up, the Tau have no way to stand up to the Mantie in capship to capship fights. And without numbers of their fleet, the only advantage I can see out right is FTL and strike craft.

Indeed.

[Coalition]

Based on all the previous, unless something else comes up, the Tau have no way to stand up to the Mantie in capship to capship fights. And without numbers of their fleet, the only advantage I can see out right is FTL and strike craft.

The Tau method of standing up to the Manty fleet would be to rotate shis into and out of the wall of battle. Each ship can handle 2000 missiles hitting it before its shields fail.

A basic Tau fleet could have an Explorer, three Orcas, and a merchant class ship. Each of them can handle the same 2000 missile salvo. If the Tau rotate their ships through the front lines, they could absorb 5000 missiles without worrying about shields.

The Tau strategy would be to get the Manties to empty their missile bays into their shields. This is assuming that 100% of the Manty missiles get past Tau ECM, PD, etc.

[Xon]

Strike craft seems to be a quick way of suicide, but Honorverse main weapons arent that great at tracking thinks like a Shrike with it's ~600gee acceleration and increased manoevrability, and the dedicated PD doesnt have enough grunt to really hurt them.

However, what type of stats do Tau Strike craft have? How big, manoevrability and how many gees acceleration can they pull?

If the Tau's missile are going to be cut down, the strike craft are probably going to fair worse.

[Xon]

A basic Tau fleet could have an Explorer, three Orcas, and a merchant class ship. Each of them can handle the same 2000 missile salvo. If the Tau rotate their ships through the front lines, they could absorb 5000 missiles without worrying about shields.

The Tau strategy would be to get the Manties to empty their missile bays into their shields. This is assuming that 100% of the Manty missiles get past Tau ECM, PD, etc.

IIRC, One Honorverse battle involved some 10000 missiles in a single volley being chucked at a Peeps non-pod wall. While they were suprised at the wieght of numbers, the PD didnt backup & go home on them(aka complete failure due to having too many targets). The Wall was rendered combat ineffective and/or ran, but it took more than 1-2 volleys to break them.

Granted that was a pod-sd Wall chucking the missiles, but the home forts and fleets can easily output that type of firepower.

[Akaramu Shinja]

Strike craft seems to be a quick way of suicide, but Honorverse main weapons arent that great at tracking thinks like a Shrike with it's ~600gee acceleration and increased manoevrability, and the dedicated PD doesnt have enough grunt to really hurt them.

However, what type of stats do Tau Strike craft have? How big, manoevrability and how many gees acceleration can they pull?

If the Tau's missile are going to be cut down, the strike craft are probably going to fair worse.

Their bombers are actually their Manta Missile Destroyers. Tau version of a Titan in some ways. Can stand up to them and has shields. If I recall someone did firepower figures on Titan weapons, if I had them then damage taking abilities of them would be known. Speed? Same as a bomber in all of BFG. Necro knows what BFG numbers translate to.

Another thing I was thinking. How dependent is the Manticore system for trade? How quickly would they collapse without it? The Tau could possibly sit it out strategically if the Manties need it.

[The Dark]

Another thing I was thinking. How dependent is the Manticore system for trade? How quickly would they collapse without it? The Tau could possibly sit it out strategically if the Manties need it.

Somewhat dependent, but their trade is heavily through the wormhole junction that's within the Manticore binary. If we're actually moving the systems, then there's relatively little harm to Manticore's economy.

[Nephtys]

Another thing I was thinking. How dependent is the Manticore system for trade? How quickly would they collapse without it? The Tau could possibly sit it out strategically if the Manties need it.

Somewhat dependent, but their trade is heavily through the wormhole junction that's within the Manticore binary. If we're actually moving the systems, then there's relatively little harm to Manticore's economy.

Almost all star systems in the HHverse of any appreciable nation are pretty much self-sufficient. The Manticore system itself is an industrial giant well supplied by three inhabitable planets. Greyson for example, is also self-sufficient or growing increasingly so. Erewhon and soforth as well.

If the trade between systems became hazardous, it'd certainly screw with their economies, but they won't be starved to death.

[HRogge]

Strike craft seems to be a quick way of suicide, but Honorverse main weapons arent that great at tracking thinks like a Shrike with it's ~600gee acceleration and increased manoevrability, and the dedicated PD doesnt have enough grunt to really hurt them.

The problem hitting a Shrike is not the 600g acceleration but it's very good stealth and ECM system. The Havenites ( as an example ) use their main batteries for missile defense !

Somewhat dependent, but their trade is heavily through the wormhole junction that's within the Manticore binary. If we're actually moving the systems, then there's relatively little harm to Manticore's economy.

Interesting question:
if the Manticore system is moved to the IoM-verse... it the wormhole nexus stil connected to the original targets ?

[Dahak]

A basic Tau fleet could have an Explorer, three Orcas, and a merchant class ship. Each of them can handle the same 2000 missile salvo. If the Tau rotate their ships through the front lines, they could absorb 5000 missiles without worrying about shields.

The Tau strategy would be to get the Manties to empty their missile bays into their shields. This is assuming that 100% of the Manty missiles get past Tau ECM, PD, etc.

IIRC, One Honorverse battle involved some 10000 missiles in a single volley being chucked at a Peeps non-pod wall. While they were suprised at the wieght of numbers, the PD didnt backup & go home on them(aka complete failure due to having too many targets). The Wall was rendered combat ineffective and/or ran, but it took more than 1-2 volleys to break them.

Granted that was a pod-sd Wall chucking the missiles, but the home forts and fleets can easily output that type of firepower.

AAC showed us what a really dedicated podnought battle might include. In one battle, more than 700,000 missiles were involved in one exchange between opposing fleets...

[HRogge]

AAC showed us what a really dedicated podnought battle might include. In one battle, more than 700,000 missiles were involved in one exchange between opposing fleets...

Amazon.com
At All Costs (The Honor Harrington) by David Weber (Hardcover)
Buy new: $17.16 Not yet released

*GRR*

[Connor MacLeod]

It seems so. I'm willing to wager that ship to ship, Manticore has a superiority especially through missile firepower, and defensive capability, but the Tau it seems outnumber them with a multisystem nation.

Er. The Tau have mid to high GT weaponry (at least if they are anything like the other 40K powers, they do.) The Manties have low GT weaponry at best. Considering that they would have parity at BEST (and that being largely generous to the Manties) I don't see how your claim makes sense.

The real advantage the Manties have is that virtually all the weapons the TAU have are kinds their defenses can deal with, despite the absurd firepower advantage.

[Connor MacLeod]

As for the aforementioned Warp Missiles, they do indeed travel partly in warpspace, and thus bypass shields and armour, detonating inside the target. At least, that's how the titan-mounted ones work. I can't remember if there are starship torpedpo equivalents (and I don't think the WD torpedo variants article is online).

They're not listed in the torpedo variant article IIRC, however this is the discussion mentioning them (this is talking about a small warp rift that the warp-reactive bridge window filter picked up):

"How?"

"Interesting you should ask," said Vekk. "DiGoryan here and I were just discussing the same thing. We thought it might be a subspace propulsion rig at first, those solid-state numbers they had docked at Hydraphur a few years back."

"But that, of course, would cause infra-quantum fluctuations far beyond the range of what we are currently acquiring," said the Navigator, DiGoryan, folding his long, intricate fingers into a steeple beneath his chin.

Chloure nodded. He had no idea what they were talking about. He could organise the details of an entire planetary economy, but the vagaries of warp science were simply beyond him.

"We believed it was a psychoportive weapons system powering up," continued DiGoryan. "But, of course, the astropaths have detected nothing that might suggest such a thing."

Interesting. Is that unique to the Tau, or do other factions (like the Imperium or the Eldar) have something similar. If so then that might have been an advantage against the Empire (since there is some debate as to whether they can stop weaponry like that )

[HRogge]

Does someone know how large a sidewall "bubbleshield" is ?

[Connor MacLeod]

How good is the acceleration on Tau strike craft? Manty PD does well at striking down missiles that accelerate at 800,000 m/s^2, so without some incredibly good strike craft they're going to have problems.

ERm. Been ove this before. Acceleration isn't the be-all end all. The quality of sensor data (as well as the amount of time you have to track targets and whatnot) plays a HUGE ROLE in the ability of Honorverse point defense. (The novels make this abundantly clear NUMEROUS times.. the more time they have, the better their poitn defense can be. For example, when the Fearless had its gravitics knocked out against Thunder of God in THoTQ, the reduced sensor ranges hampered their point defense capabilities.)

Depending on how far teh craft have to travel, how visible they will be on honorverse sensors (particularily gravitics) and how durable they are, there's alot of ambiguity as to how the point defense will fare.

[consequences]

AAC showed us what a really dedicated podnought battle might include. In one battle, more than 700,000 missiles were involved in one exchange between opposing fleets...

Amazon.com
At All Costs (The Honor Harrington) by David Weber (Hardcover)
Buy new: $17.16 Not yet released

*GRR*

Get an Advance Reader Copy and read it on your computer. That's what I just did.

[Connor MacLeod]

A missile's impeller signature is not that big at all, less than a hundred meters across IIRC. And it can be hit reliably traveling at velocities faster than any ship with countermissiles or PD Lasers.

Again, its not just the SIZE fo the wedge that contributes to its detectability, its also its strength (we're talking a fucking assload of gees involved regardless of the particular number you subscribe to.) and its a "steady-state" effect. CAn the same be said for the Tau?

As for missiles and PD.. again range and sensor quality play a HUGE role in its effectiveness. The closer the range is, te harder the time point defense will have.

[HRogge]

Get an Advance Reader Copy and read it on your computer. That's what I just did.

link... link ? Link ? LINK ?????

[Ford Prefect]

Get an Advance Reader Copy and read it on your computer. That's what I just did.

link... link ? Link ? LINK ?????

Also, is there any way to get a hold of these books online? I actually like Weber's writing (what I've read, anyway) but I've never, ever, ever seen his books up and down the East Coast of Australia.

[HRogge]

Also, is there any way to get a hold of these books online? I actually like Weber's writing (what I've read, anyway) but I've never, ever, ever seen his books up and down the East Coast of Australia.

try baen.ghostwheel.com

Just found the "advanced reader copy" thing... does only work with a credit card...
Damn, so I have to wait until November...

[Connor MacLeod]

I'd see the Tau as having the defensive advantage, and a little on the firepower as well.

Disregarding the Sidwealls of course (unless the Tau can get their gigaton-range nukes through sidewalls and point defense or they develop laser weaponry. Or can burn out the sidewalls.)

Tau shields can withstand 600 gigatons of firepower before collapsing. That translates to ~1000 Manty missiles per ship, to drop its shields (not counting ECM).

Probably being a bit kind to the Manty side, since as I noted, laser heads tend to use only a small parrt of that actual firepower (and of that part, only some actually hits the opposing ships.) I also suspect the acutal durability among Tau ships will vary according to the ship.

For firepower, the AI guided missiles could use the Triple-ripple style of attacking. Each missile is a 60 gigaton warhead (each volley of missiles is 10 missiles, damage per volley is 600 gigatons). So the first missile comes into range, and detects anti-missile fire. It detonates, blinding the counter missiles. The next one detonates afterwards, repeating, and keeping the Manty ship blind.

The question is, how far away are they going to launch it?

Unfortunately, those missiles can only be fired at one volley per fifteen minutes, there will be a massive first wave, then the Tau will rotate shields in and out of the front line, to keep their shields strong.

Nukes in the honorverse seem to be quite a bit more destructive (as THoTQ and tSVW prove) if they get through the side wall and close enough to the target. The problem is that at the ranges they typically engage at, modern point defense is quite likely to shoot those same missiles down before they get close enough to be a threat. The main advantage of the laser head is its stand-off distance and its greater intensity (it delivers its energy in a more concentrated form than a nuke, even if the actual energy unleashed is not as great.)

The Manties will be able to dodge away from the Tau, most likely, but if the Tau can spot the shipyards, they will simply close and engage them.

Are we talking FTL or sublight? If sublight Manties are pretty sluggish in turning, though depending on what Tau accel is (I haven't heard any numbers yet) they might have better linear accel. They may or may not have a slight advantage in endurance (Honorverse ships can sustain accel for weeks or months - longer if they travel alto more in hyperspace than in realspace.)

[consequences]

Get an Advance Reader Copy and read it on your computer. That's what I just did.

link... link ? Link ? LINK ?????

*Sigh* You'd think going to Baen.com would be an obvious thing.

For the specific link: http://www.webscription.net/

register, log in, go to order advance reader copies, order At All Costs, pay twelve bucks by credit card. For some reason, the site initially gave me issues when I tried to register using Firefox, so I had to switch over to IE, don't know if this is a universal bug or just a screup on my part.

[consequences]

Also, is there any way to get a hold of these books online? I actually like Weber's writing (what I've read, anyway) but I've never, ever, ever seen his books up and down the East Coast of Australia.

try baen.ghostwheel.com

Just found the "advanced reader copy" thing... does only work with a credit card...
Damn, so I have to wait until November...

There is an option to fax or mail your payment, or to do it through paypal.

[Connor MacLeod]

60-80 missiles is pretty much standard fare for a ship of the wall. But per volley also represents 15 minutes worth of reloads, or that many missiles fired over 15 minutes. That's about half Honorverse ROF.

But of course, the warheads are more destructive (and IIRC the missiles might be much larger than an Honorverse missile.) the largest missiles, the MDMS are over 230 tons. How big is a Tau missile going to be? If its alot more massive or if its shielded/protected by Tau defenses, it could be quite resistant to Honorverse point defense, especially if the engagement ranges are much closer than the multi-million km ranges we typically see in the honorverse.

And now that it's mentioned, if 7 IoM ships is a huge deal, then a Squadron of the Wall likely is at least equal threat.

Sorry, but I have to laugh at the idea that Manticore (or anyone in the Honorverse) has firepower or defenses comparable to the IoM. What next?

I was under the impression all those Tau planets were colonies with actual industry, not mostly outposts. So... well. A five hundred ship strong navy could do some serious hurt.

So what good is wiping out a few outposts going to do?

[Connor MacLeod]

Or, they fire ten volleys per turn, with the number of missiles in each volley depending on the strength of the battery

One missile volley every 1-2 minutes ? HH ships would laugh about a rate of fire like this, they are used to volleys every 15-25 seconds.

And respond with missiles whose effective firepower is orders of magnitude weaker than the largest Honorverse warhead observed. (even if we did assume they actually could mount those 500 megaton warheads on MDMs, which we have no reason to do.)

[Connor MacLeod]

You are aware, I assume, that almost all missile weapons qualify as weapons batteries in BFG, yes? A torpedo is something special, it is a missile the size of a Saturn 5 rocket loaded with gigaton fusion bombs....

Really? It would probably be considerably more massive than an Honorverse missile (hence the slow refire rates and small volleys) Are they shielded/armored perchance?