S. 8472 vs Empire

[TheDarkling]

I'm scared, too.

But the point stands. SW knows about nanotechnology, and can use it as well as any Borg.

The Borg couldnt figure it out .

The imps may be able to design nanoprobes but I doubt they would - brute force is their way.

[Howedar]

Its not a question of "may be able to design". As far as I can tell, they already have.

[Master of Ossus]

I'm scared, too.

But the point stands. SW knows about nanotechnology, and can use it as well as any Borg.

The Borg couldnt figure it out .

The imps may be able to design nanoprobes but I doubt they would - brute force is their way.

Actually, you're right. The nanoprobes would be irrelevent. The Imperial forces would just be able to roll over S8472, so they would never have to bother creating specialized weapons to do so.

[SirNitram]

I still don't see how this is better than brute force through firepower. From the clip I've seen of Voyager toasting the Bioship fleet, it's the explosion propagating through the fluid(Concussive shockwave..) that blows up the ships.

[TheDarkling]

Howedar: There was some wacky stuff about their DNA that meant normal nano probes wouldnt work against them.

[Crown]

Originally posted by TheDarkling
Howedar: There was some wacky stuff about their DNA that meant normal nano probes wouldnt work against them.

Since nano-probes are designed for a certain role, wouldn't it be just logical thinking that any use of them, would have to be dependant on the fact that they can be used against them? Since we have evidence of SW galaxy being able to specifically modify and tamper with nano and bilogical tech, Kryptos virus, Mon Mothma being incapasitated only, the NJO book with Jaina in Hapes, why do you believe that the same could not be done for S-8472?

[TheDarkling]

Crown: All I am saying is the imps would need a sample of a 8472ers DNA to program the nano probes.

However I still think the imps would brute force their way out.

[Crown]

Originally posted by TheDarkling
Crown: All I am saying is the imps would need a sample of a 8472ers DNA to program the nano probes.

However I still think the imps would brute force their way out.

Samples they will get from scirmishes... The Imps have desplayed their ability to use both force and subtlety, so automatically limiting their response is a little unfair, wouldn't you agree?

[Master of Ossus]

Look, guys, when I agreed with Crown that his point was valid, I was agreeing because I have had Trekkies claim to me that nanobots are beyond the ability of SW to produce. I was not saying that they would be necessary in a war against S8472 or the Borg. In such a conflict, such technologies in Imperial possession would be irrelevent because they would simply be able to blast apart their enemies and their ships without any special technology. They would not NEED nanobots, but they would have them. There would never be any need to employ biological or chemical agents, either, because they could just out fight their adversaries using more conventional weapons.

[Crown]

Originally posted by Master of Ossus
Look, guys, when I agreed with Crown that his point was valid, I was agreeing because I have had Trekkies claim to me that nanobots are beyond the ability of SW to produce. I was not saying that they would be necessary in a war against S8472 or the Borg. In such a conflict, such technologies in Imperial possession would be irrelevent because they would simply be able to blast apart their enemies and their ships without any special technology. They would not NEED nanobots, but they would have them. There would never be any need to employ biological or chemical agents, either, because they could just out fight their adversaries using more conventional weapons.

I too agree, and I weild the floor.

[septesix]

Oh well, one more ST race fall to the way side.....

Time to get back to my nightfigther and starbreaker!

[His Divine Shadow]

Look, guys, when I agreed with Crown that his point was valid, I was agreeing because I have had Trekkies claim to me that nanobots are beyond the ability of SW to produce. I was not saying that they would be necessary in a war against S8472 or the Borg. In such a conflict, such technologies in Imperial possession would be irrelevent because they would simply be able to blast apart their enemies and their ships without any special technology. They would not NEED nanobots, but they would have them. There would never be any need to employ biological or chemical agents, either, because they could just out fight their adversaries using more conventional weapons.

SW? No nanotech? Hardly.
How do you explain then how they have the ability to perfectly replicate molecular structures(duplicators), build entire houses from the recycled scrap of the previous one, create entire ships using world Devastators?

Pg. 14: Kuat of Kuat ... had a fine-tuned awareness of machines, from the smallest nanospheroids to constructions capable of annihilating worlds. It was a family trait, something encoded deep within the Kuat blood for generations.

(ref: The Mandalorian Armor)

[His Divine Shadow]

That's stupid reasoning. An ISD has a 40 000 odd crew and is 60 million tons. A dreadnought is IIRC 6 million tons. Does it have 4 000 men? Nope, 16 thousand. A GCS is 4.5 million with a 1000 crew, while an ICS is IIRC 1 million with only a 150 crew.

There are no real mass figures for the ISD nor dreadnaught.
It can be billions of tons if it wants.

[Master of Ossus]

Look, guys, when I agreed with Crown that his point was valid, I was agreeing because I have had Trekkies claim to me that nanobots are beyond the ability of SW to produce. I was not saying that they would be necessary in a war against S8472 or the Borg. In such a conflict, such technologies in Imperial possession would be irrelevent because they would simply be able to blast apart their enemies and their ships without any special technology. They would not NEED nanobots, but they would have them. There would never be any need to employ biological or chemical agents, either, because they could just out fight their adversaries using more conventional weapons.

SW? No nanotech? Hardly.
How do you explain then how they have the ability to perfectly replicate molecular structures(duplicators), build entire houses from the recycled scrap of the previous one, create entire ships using world Devastators?

Pg. 14: Kuat of Kuat ... had a fine-tuned awareness of machines, from the smallest nanospheroids to constructions capable of annihilating worlds. It was a family trait, something encoded deep within the Kuat blood for generations.

(ref: The Mandalorian Armor)

WTF? I was agreeing with you. I'm saying that Trekkies have made those claims to me in the past, and now I have direct evidence of why that is not true. I have ALWAYS known that SW had nanotechnology, I was just trying to find an irrefutable example of one.

BTW the nanobots that attacked Mon Mothma were also dangerous to other people. Cilgal told the guard she gave the bowl of nanobots to not to spill it or touch the things, only to bring them to an incinerator and destroy them. The only reason only Mon Mothma was affected was because she was the only one exposed.

[seanrobertson]

IIRC a 8472 ship continued to take shots at Voyager and she survived.

Hmm...no. Not that I'm aware of. Every hit we see or are told
about knocks out the shields instantly.

Also, you'll no doubt have a field day on this , but truly, Thrawn,
I don't think the Eights were trying to kill Voyager outright.
Hear me out.

Months after the conflict started between the Borg and Eights,
the first bioship we see attaches itself to part of a derelict cube--or, I should say, *was* attached to the derelict when we first saw it.

The cube had an "atmosphere," so it was kosher for VGR's away team
to beam over and investigate.

Now, cubes are huge by Trek standards, with a volume of 28 cubic klicks.
To be sure, no more than three-four shots from a bioship will dissociate
that volume (at least, circa "Scorpion pt. I"). Thus, each shot can
blow away several cubic kms of a Trek ship (please note the distinction...
and I'm not saying that the beam itself is responsible for all of
the energy release; that's not the point, however).

Voyager is 344m long, 133m wide, and 66m tall. A grossly
generous estimate of volume, as a solid cylinder with a 133m outer
radius, would be 19 million cubic meters. Remember that a cubic kilometer
is equal to one billion cubic meters, so VGR is less than 0.019 km^3--at least 1,474 times smaller than a Borg cube!

Even with a staggeringly high density (which isn't the case, given her 700,000 metric ton mass), VGR should be VERY easy for the Eights to blow away. At least, by all appearances...the Eights, after all, only had the
Borg to judge Milky Way technology by.

And that's what I think is important. Even after months of conflict,
the Eights evidently wanted to study the Borg up close; i.e., disembark
their craft and go aboard Borg ships. They're intensely curious creatures--witness their elaborate Starfleet HQ mock-up. Thus, I think it is likely
they wanted to board and study VGR, too. Given the extreme size
differential discussed above, the Eights would see VGR and realize
that they couldn't blow away cubic kilometers of hull and STILL have
something to study. Examining debris is fine, but that's not what
the Eight ship in "Scorpion" was doing: she/it/whatever was dealing
with live Borg, and a functioning part of their vessel.

Granted, it's a complex approach to simply saying, "The Eights could've
fired low-power shots initially," but it's a theory that tries to fit all
the facts at hand. I find it somewhat incredible that they simply couldn't
do in VGR, yet could manhandle cubes left and right. (Keep in mind
the fact that 40 starships couldn't whip a cube, yet those same 40
starships would blow VGR away before finishing an initial volley.)

To me, the *latter* begs the complex, unsupported explanations of
how Eight ships' weaponry works. The only thing I've seen that
suggests the Eights' weapons utilize some kind of super-physical
principles was what Michael pointed out about the delay in that Borg
planet shattering...and one must keep in mind the VASTLY different
scales of a planet to a diminuitive starship--even a cube.

But all ST ships aren't created equal The Odyssey isn't
a great example because her shields were down.

Then again...maybe that's not such a bad example. The bioship didn't
appear to have a traditional "shield" as such. Their hulls seemed to
be capable of handling energy weapons by "absorbing" them somehow.
(Yes, I know. I think it's stupid, too.)

Still, you have to remember that when the cube was colliding with
the bioship, its innards were already exploding (remember Janewad
getting hit with a bolt of E?). Plus, Borg power grids are completely
decentralized ("Q Who?"), so if it's already about to blow, when you
ram a bioship the grid on that axis will *definitely* contribute to the
energy released.

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[His Divine Shadow]

I don't think the 8's ships can take a couple of HTL attacks, nor do I think that they have any planet killing firepower, whatsoever, they only have that when they form up and I think thats because the regular beams open up one of those portals to their home dimension where they got a bigass gun they are charging for planet killing shots(we can deduce an approx. recharge rates on how many planets they killed in six months), if they had all that power themselves they would only need to fire at one position on the planet without forming up into such a cumbersome formation, heck a single eight ship could do it infact without requiring all those other extraships, but they do require those extra ships, and in particular that special ship in the middle.
And the fact that Borg cubes where able to survive several shots when we know their upper limit is magnitudes below a socalled 1/9th of a planet killing shot.

In short the 8's are the most overblown ahem "uberspecies" I have seen.

[TheDarkling]

The entire 8472 affair seems odd to me they have destroyed only 8 planets and killed 4 million drones?

8472 carve out an entire passage for several light years at least yet only 8 planets destroyed?

In one system there are 3 planets and every single one is Borg showing they take whatever space they can get, the planet we see has 4 Borg ships by the way in orbit.

Thus how could the passage contain only 4 Million Borg (not including those on ships) if the Borg take any space hey can get?

[His Divine Shadow]

If that was the limit on the hypotethical big gun or power generator in the home dimension it would generate around 3e30watts

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

8 planets? Only?

[TheDarkling]

When you have 1000's of systems and populate more than one planet per system (3 of 3 in one system) then 8 planets aint nothing.

In fact 400 ships in Millions isnt much either, nor is 4 Million drones among Trillions.

The entire war seems very small and I cant believe that the entire North west passage contained less than 4 Million drones(Not including Ships or the Planet they destroyed outside the north west passage).

[Master of Ossus]

Do you know how few systems have multiple inhabited planets, Darkling?

And there is no evidence that there are millions of Borg cubes. If there were, then the Borg should have been able to devote more than 2 to attack Earth.

[His Divine Shadow]

WTF? I was agreeing with you.

OH, okie then, my bad.

[TheDarkling]

Master of Ossus: The Borg dont need a class M planet - they can live on a very wide range of planets/moons.
However it is possible that the system was a one off (possible not likely however).

We are told there are millions but that could be hyperbole(No reason to think so though), we are talking about a large number though (1 Planet had 4 or 5 cubes in orbit - this may be high or low however).

Why couldnt they afford more than one cube because they are idiots prehaps?, major wars going on in other realms.

They have wars loser to home, mayber they just suffer from run f the mill arrogance (we have seen indications of this).

[seanrobertson]

The entire 8472 affair seems odd to me they have destroyed only 8 planets and killed 4 million drones?

8472 carve out an entire passage for several light years at least yet only 8 planets destroyed?

In one system there are 3 planets and every single one is Borg showing they take whatever space they can get, the planet we see has 4 Borg ships by the way in orbit.

Thus how could the passage contain only 4 Million Borg (not including those on ships) if the Borg take any space hey can get?

Hmm...well, my thoughts:

First, the Collective said something of 4 million some odd "Borg," *not* "drones." It's possible that the Collective regards "Borg" per unimatrix or something like that, similar to the way the clone trooper "unit" doesn't simply refer to a *single* trooper in AOTC.

Second, we don't know how long 8472 was in the Delta Quadrant.
We know the Borg started the war in fluid space. The Eights might've
only recently started attacking the DQ, let alone started planet-killing
operations (remember, the Borg DO operate non-planetary based
installations; e.g., the Unicomplex). No one ever said that the
Eights had been in the Milky Way for six months, nor is there even
the most circumstantial proof of as much. (No, "Unity" didn't indicate
anything, though the writers were intimating that something "big"
was going to happen later on.)

Third, eight planets, 312 vessels, and so on might not have been
the sum TOTAL of everything the Eights had destroyed from
the *beginning* of the conflict. We're never told this; this is simply
being assumed. It could've simply been a tactical update following
the most recent engagement. This is the most plausible explanation,
actually, considering that threatening a Collective of TRILLIONS ("Dark
Frontier," explicitly stated as the population of the primary Unicomplex)
and "thousands of worlds" would require far more destruction to even
*begin* to threaten. The Borg aren't THAT sensitive to loss; otherwise,
the Queen wouldn't simply murder tens of thousands of drones to
make a point to Janewad in "Unimatrix Zero."

Fourth, to address points raised in other posts, I disagree that individual
bioships are insignificant in generating the planet-killing burst. Think
about it...that makes no sense. If only the central-most ship in formation did the damage, why would eight others form up around it? Remember,
the Eights WERE vulnerable to Borg weapons (which are presumably
much more powerful than what the Federation uses), at least over time.
Forming up is a quick way to paint TARGET on your hull!

I also don't know of anything that suggests the power for the PK burst
comes from fluidic space--indeed, from any known source. It could
well simply involve the fuel supplies of all the ships in the formation--which, btw, IS still enough to at least crack the planet. (I'm still a little curious why folks think there is a delay between the beam's contact and the planet's destruction. We didn't necessarily ever see the beam break
contact, since there was a scene change. And I thought it was possible
to shatter a globe even if you didn't deliver all of the energy in a split-second...I seem to remember Curtis discussing something similar
to this in his Death Star section WRT Yavin IV, but I could be way off.)

But I think the main thing to take home from all this is that, yes, individual
bioships do have formidable firepower. Planet-killing firepower per shot? No, certainly not...but impressive nonetheless? Yes. They have to; as I said, if only one ship could start to melt a significant portion of that Borg planet's crust in a split-second attack, why would other ships have to lend a
hand? At that scale of energy, "a little bit of help" would do jack;
you'd need to contribute a LOT of power to make the formation worthwhile
at all. Even if that involved something akin to a year's worth of
a bioship's fuel load, it ain't small potatos.

However, it's apparent that bioships are limited to a very small fraction
of this when attacking ships--that, or any kind of regular rate of fire
requires that individual shots only be given a comparatively small
amount of power. This is evident in what, to be frank, I think a lot
of you are ignoring: what a bioship does that dozens of Federation
ships *can't*. And I say this keeping the HULL of a cube firmly in
mind--something that CANNOT "adapt" to phaser frequencies or anything similar. (Only the shields can.)

Consider the following.

In "Best of Both Worlds," I understood the deflector beam to be more powerful than the E-D's torpedo payload; i.e., "more power than our
phasers and photon torpedos could ever provide." Given what
we've heard of ST: Nemesis, and the length of the battle in ST:FC (plus the fact that Defiant had evidently run out of quantorps by the time the E-E arrived on the scene) this doesn't sound too far-fetched. A cube should
be able to take hundreds of photorps without damage.

But back to the deflector beam, remember, that attack didn't do *anything* to the cube. It didn't even make Locutus shake as he stood looking grim on the viewscreen.

Yet, a bioship can chew through a cube, shields and all, many cubic kilometers at a time. Therefore, bioships can output more firepower than the E-D's entire torpedo complement. (Note: yes, this hinges on a very specific interpretation of LaForge's words. However, as I said, it holds up in
light of other evidence. I also think it makes far more sense than assuming LaForge has an inherent time constraint in mind when
discussing the E-D's conventional weapon limits; i.e., that by "provide"
he is thinking of something like "at once," a spread of only ten torpedos.
That doesn't make ANY sense. All that would be required to equal the
power of this dangerous superweapon would be two ships capable of
firing 10 torps apiece in one volley!)

If you think about this before simply knee-jerking me, you'll realize this
could simply mean a bioship's attacks won't be below the megaton range.
I don't think THAT is too objectionable, eh? It couldn't be!

Anyway, if that particular example sounds too extreme for you, at LEAST consider that a bioship's individual shots did far more damage to a cube than approximately 20 photorps plus phaser fire did in "FC," even when those weapons all detonated INSIDE a Borg cube. (Those weapons didn't even kill the cube. Its power grid did, since it didn't explode for several seconds after the last torpedo streaked inside it.)

So nah, I don't think the Eights are that overrated at all--not by me anyway.
I think the Vorlons and/or Shadows are by far the most overrated
bio-tech species out there.

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

We are told there are millions but that could be hyperbole(No reason to think so though), we are talking about a large number though (1 Planet had 4 or 5 cubes in orbit - this may be high or low however).

I'd let to see your quote for a million ships.