Manticore vs. The Tau

[Akaramu Shinja]

Which was just a comment from Andy and in no way is it represented in published fluff or stories/videos from various sources. Am I right?

[The Dark]

The orbital forts which they have around in those areas can hold off Honorverse fleets that are stupid enough to come within range of the forts. They cant exactly move much, but they represent an awesome amount of firepower.

I remember Weber said something about 100g acceleration, but I cannot find the quote.

the 'forts' in the outer ring had to be able to move to fill in the gaps and mass upon an attacker. Their maximum acceleration rates were low, well under a hundred gravities, but their initial position had been very carefully planned. Their acceleration would be enough to intercept attacking forces headed in-system, and their engines were sufficiently powerful to generate impeller wedges and sidewalls to protect them.

(page 57). This is somewhat quirky, though, since by the physics Weber's described, they should be too massive to move . They mass 16,000,000 tons, and extrapolating from data he's given in technical excerpts, a ship of 9,547,500 tons should have a maximum acceleration of 1 g. *shrug* Check out weberfaq.fifthimperium.com to find it under the Great ABD-W Typo Hunt, maintained by Gonsalves herself.

[The Dark]

That should be weberfaq.thefifthimperium.com, I misspelled it.

[HRogge]

They mass 16,000,000 tons, and extrapolating from data he's given in technical excerpts, a ship of 9,547,500 tons should have a maximum acceleration of 1 g. *shrug* Check out weberfaq.fifthimperium.com to find it under the Great ABD-W Typo Hunt, maintained by Gonsalves herself.

I found two quotes which might be usefull in this context ( both from "On Basilisk Station" ):

The smallest fortress out there massed close to sixteen million tons, twice as much as a superdreadnought, and its weapons-to-mass ratio was far higher. The forts weren't hyper-capable, for they used mass a warship might have devoted to its hyper generators and Warshawski sails to pack in still more firepower, but they were far more than immobile weapon platforms. They had to be.
Each of those forts maintained a stand-by battle watch and a 360º sidewall "bubble" at all times,

The large 16 megaton type fortress has no wedge but a bubblefield generate... so the large ones cannot move.

Nonetheless, heavy losses could be anticipated in the inner fortress ring under the best possible circumstances, so the "forts" in the outer rings had to be able to move to fill in the gaps and mass upon an attacker. Their maximum acceleration rates were low, well under a hundred gravities, but their initial positions had been very carefully planned.

The mobile forts seem to be smaller, but better armed than a SD ( no hypergenerator and lower acceleration ).

I think this fits the numbers we got from Weber about the inertial compensator.

[Nephtys]

Point is still that a Tau Warship that can fire 10 missiles per standard salvo, with 8 salvoes... in the game mechanic, that's a pitiful 80 missiles. HH ships have ridiculously fast rates of fire for their launchers, and even a destroyer can exceed that 80 in very little time. It's unlikely the game mechanic is literally an order of magnitude weaker than the 'real' ROF.

And regarding fortresses, Weber's said that they're somewhat mobile enough to act as a defense against C-Frac attacks. At least the Wormhole Terminus fortresses are, indicating an alternate means of propulsion if they don't operate with impellers.

[Akaramu Shinja]

Point is still that a Tau Warship that can fire 10 missiles per standard salvo, with 8 salvoes... in the game mechanic, that's a pitiful 80 missiles. HH ships have ridiculously fast rates of fire for their launchers, and even a destroyer can exceed that 80 in very little time. It's unlikely the game mechanic is literally an order of magnitude weaker than the 'real' ROF.

And regarding fortresses, Weber's said that they're somewhat mobile enough to act as a defense against C-Frac attacks. At least the Wormhole Terminus fortresses are, indicating an alternate means of propulsion if they don't operate with impellers.

Again this "time per turn" was a single quote from Andy Chambers. And it in no way supports the rest of the universe fluff.

[HRogge]

Point is still that a Tau Warship that can fire 10 missiles per standard salvo, with 8 salvoes... in the game mechanic, that's a pitiful 80 missiles. HH ships have ridiculously fast rates of fire for their launchers, and even a destroyer can exceed that 80 in very little time. It's unlikely the game mechanic is literally an order of magnitude weaker than the 'real' ROF.

Even the really slow launchers of the HH ships can at least fire twice per minute.

And regarding fortresses, Weber's said that they're somewhat mobile enough to act as a defense against C-Frac attacks. At least the Wormhole Terminus fortresses are, indicating an alternate means of propulsion if they don't operate with impellers.

Are you sure he said the "fortress" is mobile ? in "On Basilisk Station" he use the term "fortress" for a large ( 16 megaton ) immobile spacestation and "fort" for a smaller slow moving system defense "craft" ( not hyper capable ).

[HRogge]

Again this "time per turn" was a single quote from Andy Chambers. And it in no way supports the rest of the universe fluff.

So do you can quote some texts which prove faster ROF ?

[Akaramu Shinja]

Again this "time per turn" was a single quote from Andy Chambers. And it in no way supports the rest of the universe fluff.

So do you can quote some texts which prove faster ROF ?

Videos from Firewarrior for a start. As for text, I'd have to do digging. Maybe Necron will reply with his extensive 40k knowledge faster than I can come up with something, until then. No.

[Nephtys]

And regarding fortresses, Weber's said that they're somewhat mobile enough to act as a defense against C-Frac attacks. At least the Wormhole Terminus fortresses are, indicating an alternate means of propulsion if they don't operate with impellers.

Are you sure he said the "fortress" is mobile ? in "On Basilisk Station" he use the term "fortress" for a large ( 16 megaton ) immobile spacestation and "fort" for a smaller slow moving system defense "craft" ( not hyper capable ).

Not really mobile enough to cross systems or anything. He mentioned that the station-keeping drives combined with other defense systems are enough to make a C-Frac attack on the fortresses unpractical. Probably due to a little bit of movement, ridiculously strong bubble shield, point defense, countermissiles and extra strong ECM add to that though, all of which a Fortress possesses.

[Black Admiral]

So do you can quote some texts which prove faster ROF ?

Execution Hour gives a lance's ROF as ~one shot a minute, and the recharge time for an Imperial cruiser's ventral shields as less than that.

[Nephtys]

So do you can quote some texts which prove faster ROF ?

Execution Hour gives a lance's ROF as ~one shot a minute, and the recharge time for an Imperial cruiser's ventral shields as less than that.

A direct fire weapon would behave differently than a volley-launched missile. One shot per minute could mean that a turn equals ten or fifteen shots' cumulative effects. Unlike the missiles, which were stated above to be fired simultaneously and not in a continous stream. Thus, direct-fire weapon ROF is irrelevant to this current topic of launcher ROF.

[Akaramu Shinja]

A direct fire weapon would behave differently than a volley-launched missile. One shot per minute could mean that a turn equals ten or fifteen shots' cumulative effects.

Isn't that stretching it from no basis it all? It's possible the one quote from Andy (does he even still lead BFG development?) was wrong.

[Nephtys]

A direct fire weapon would behave differently than a volley-launched missile. One shot per minute could mean that a turn equals ten or fifteen shots' cumulative effects.

Isn't that stretching it from no basis it all? It's possible the one quote from Andy (does he even still lead BFG development?) was wrong.

I'm not familiar with the actual info of the rules, fiction and whatever, but it would make logical sense that if a missile barrage was designed to overwhelm point defense with a single volley (opposed to a steady stream of missiles), and the game represents it as single volleys every 15 minutes, that it can be such.

With an direct-fire weapon, you can NOT do a single huge volley. You can only open up, and maintain fire. So it would make sense that a laser or something can fire ten times in a minute and that could be represented as one attack, while a flight of missiles could be launched only once per 10 minutes. It's not really no basis, just trying to offer explainations on how to reduce the game mechanic abstractions to quantifiable things.

[Akaramu Shinja]

If 15 minutes were true then:

-Weapon batteries fire once every 15 minutes.
-Ships can only turn every 15 minutes.
-It takes 15 minutes for special orders to go through or be used again.
-Teleport attacks take 15 minutes, as do boarding actions.
-The Nova cannon, an extremely powerful single shot weapon has the same Rate of Fire a standard weapons.

It just doesn't mix.

Fucking Andy Chambers.

[NecronLord]

Isn't that stretching it from no basis it all? It's possible the one quote from Andy (does he even still lead BFG development?) was wrong.

He was until recently in charge of 40K. Full stop. Then he got into some sort of dispute with bean counters over the fourth edition, and left/got fired and went to Mongoose, creating the Starship Troopers game, which, from what I've heard, is mechanically far superior to 40K.

[NecronLord]

-Weapon batteries fire once every 15 minutes.

Wrong. A game turn depicts ten to twenty minutes of movement and action. Roughly. It's not and never has been a hard and fast measure.

-Ships can only turn every 15 minutes.

What the fuck do you mean, only? You know how long it would take a Star Destroyer to make a ninety degrees alteration in its heading? This is far too fast. Yes, they should be able to spin around like tops, put that's not what turns are. Turns are alterations in the momentum of a vessel. They're making the ship turn around that means they have to engine burn for many minutes in order to change the vessel's vector.

-It takes 15 minutes for special orders to go through or be used again.

Err. No. It means that they brace for a ten to twenty minute period, or burn retros for that time, or all ahead full that long, etc.

-Teleport attacks take 15 minutes, as do boarding actions.

How long do you think it should take to board a seven kilometr starship? Seconds?

-The Nova cannon, an extremely powerful single shot weapon has the same
Rate of Fire a standard weapons.

Err. No. It fires once per turn. Weapons batteries put out hundreds of rounds per minute, and lances are continuous fire

Fucking Andy Chambers.

The creator of just about the entire BFG rules-set, as well as the creator of the Necrons and C'tan, a whole pile of stuff about the tyranids, and innumerate other 40K items.

[Nephtys]

If 15 minutes were true then:

-Weapon batteries fire once every 15 minutes.
-Ships can only turn every 15 minutes.
-It takes 15 minutes for special orders to go through or be used again.
-Teleport attacks take 15 minutes, as do boarding actions.
-The Nova cannon, an extremely powerful single shot weapon has the same Rate of Fire a standard weapons.

It just doesn't mix.

Fucking Andy Chambers.

Did you even read what I said? For some things, such as a giant cannon, it makes sense for one shot every 15 minutes.

The other actions however, take place OVER A TIMEFRAME of 15 minutes. A ship's turn could take 15 minutes to complete, given the large mass of vessels and the poor abilities of reaction thrusters.

Weapons firing every 15 minutes means that that 'turn' is equal to 15 minutes worth of continous fire. Missiles are different in this case, because they're launched in a single volley that has to overwhelm Point Defense in a single moment.

Teleporting to a target during a boarding may take 5 seconds. Sure. But attacking the targets themselves taking 15 minutes is fast.

[Black Admiral]

When the recharged defence batteries struck again less than a minute later, their deadly beams exploded harmlessly against the Lunar class cruiser's now fully-restored void shields.

The first strike (earlier; can be quoted if necessary) knocked out the Graf Orlok's shields and inflicted some minor internal damages.

[Akaramu Shinja]

Er, I was merely pointing out the stupidity of those possibilities. Not saying they happened. Calm down.

As for turning once every 15 minutes. What if you turn 1 degree? You can't do it again for 15 minutes.

Anyway, yes fuck Andy Chambers. It was a stupid quote and doesn't mix well. Telling me it takes 15 minutes to refire torps in 40k? And they only move that far every 15 minutes? And why are they not shot down extremely easy? 10 minutes even is a long time before firing torps or missiles again. Not to mention the scale up from say a Manta firing in Epic to the weapons in BFG.

[NecronLord]

The first strike (earlier; can be quoted if necessary) knocked out the Graf Orlok's shields and inflicted some minor internal damages.

Yes. Because of course, such rough figures would never ever have exceptions, they would not be approximations, and could be expected to never have lower limit incidents.

[NecronLord]

Anyway, yes fuck Andy Chambers. It was a stupid quote and doesn't mix well. Telling me it takes 15 minutes to refire torps in 40k?

For the IoM, I most certainly do. The fucking things are loaded by gangs of burly ratings dragging them around on chains.

And they only move that far every 15 minutes?

Because of course, moving the distance that took Apollo 11 days in fifteen minutes is so unimpressive for a space ship.

And why are they not shot down extremely easy?

40K weapons are inaccurate as hell. Furthermore, point defence frequently knocks out torpedos

10 minutes even is a long time before firing torps or missiles again. Not to mention the scale up from say a Manta firing in Epic to the weapons in BFG.

You are aware, I assume, that almost all missile weapons qualify as weapons batteries in BFG, yes? A torpedo is something special, it is a missile the size of a Saturn 5 rocket loaded with gigaton fusion bombs....

[Akaramu Shinja]

Okay, point on the Torpedoes. I remember that now. It just seems a little slow for torpedos to take up to sometimes half an hour to reach their target. Especially when Imperial ones aren't guided.

And the missiles I'm refering to specifically are the Tau ones. Which seem to take 15 minutes to reload and fire (1 torp point being 10 missiles for those who missed it).

[NecronLord]

Okay, point on the Torpedoes. I remember that now. It just seems a little slow for torpedos to take up to sometimes half an hour to reach their target. Especially when Imperial ones aren't guided.

Compared to what? Mantie missiles perhaps. But they're not meant to be particularly uber. By the same token, I could call Mantie missiles slow because Dalek missiles make them look like drunken amputee pigs. 40K missiles are fast compared to real rockets, and that's what matters.

And the missiles I'm refering to specifically are the Tau ones. Which seem to take 15 minutes to reload and fire (1 torp point being 10 missiles for those who missed it).

Yup. And for all we know, the Tau load their missiles in a similarly slow way. Hordes of Air Caste dudes pulling grav-chains.

[Akaramu Shinja]

Yup. And for all we know, the Tau load their missiles in a similarly slow way. Hordes of Air Caste dudes pulling grav-chains.

That's some art I'd love to see in the codex

Question on Imperial torpedos, how do they hit their targets? Is it a proximity explosion? If not, just some kind of docking thrusters should be enough to dodge them given the travel time.

Based on all the previous, unless something else comes up, the Tau have no way to stand up to the Mantie in capship to capship fights. And without numbers of their fleet, the only advantage I can see out right is FTL and strike craft.