S. 8472 vs Empire

[Master of Ossus]

Robertson, you are saying that S8472 would make a SD maneuver in order to be fired upon? I'm sure that the Empire is quaking in its power. All an ISD has to do is execute a 180 degree roll and it can fire on nearly any point in space around it with its HTL's. The only exception is directly behind it, but that area is protected by the engines themselves. S8472 would not stand a chance against either a large number of light defense guns or HTLs, which would vaporize their ships in a single hit.

S8472 would stand little or no chance against the Empire. They would lose, just as the Borg would, and just as SF would.

[Darth Wong]

"Species 8472 has penetrated Matrix Zero One Zero, Grid 19. Eight planets destroyed. 312 vessels disabled. 4,000,621 Borg eliminated."

I never took that to be the war to date sort of thing but the damage they had done in their most recent attack because if you remember we see 8472 jumping out of Fluidic space and attacking some borg just before te line is spoken.

That is the standard apologist Trekkie excuse. Unfortunately, it bears no resemblance to reality. We saw a major battle in the beginning of Scorpion, and it involved only 15 Borg ships. We saw one planet being destroyed, and that resulted in the destruction of only two cubes. If that is typical, then 312 lost Borg cubes would be the result of 20 major battles and 6 destroyed planets.

Moreover, a mere four million drones on 312 ships and 8 planets is simply pathetic; it indicates that most of the planets being "destroyed" were either not really destroyed at all, or they were almost entirely barren (in which case one would wonder why they had to destroy the planet).

The way I took it was that the borg had just taken heavy loses in the most recent 8472 offensive and they had decided they couldnt wait any longer and must strike back.

Provide evidence that Species 8472 can destroy that many planets and ships in a single offensive when the largest battle we ever saw involved only 15 Borg cubes.

Besides, the S-8472 cult is ignoring simple questions such as energy production. A truly vast civilization may be able to conjure up billions or trillions of megatons of energy at will, but S-8472 simply can't be that big if they were worried the puny Federation would invade and conquer them. In order to physically destroy 8 planets (as opposed to simply destroying tiny installations on the surface, which would be more consistent with the number of casualties reported), they would need around 2E33 joules of energy.

At (for example) 100,000 TW per reactor, they would need a million reactors running for 600 years in order to come up with that much juice! And their power sources are limited; remember that we know what their power source is: M/AM reactors, as determined by the boarding team. They're not using some extradimensional power source, black holes, hypermatter, etc. For all we know, the single planet-killer ship we saw was their ultimate weapon (even if it used a chain reaction of some sort, which seems necessary in light of the otherwise inexplicable delay between weapon impact and the planet's explosion) and they couldn't do it again for years.

[TheDarkling]

We are told that the Borg have 1000s of systems - you think they are going to blink after having 8 destroyed in total?

The fact is we dont know if this is typical - The borg can live on a wider range of planets than organic - they could live on moons etc.

Thus having 8 inhabitated planets/moons in one system wouldnt be impossible, now why have that many Borg cubes in an area - prehaps 8472 where striking at the heart of the Borg or maybe it was a transwarp hub etc I can only speculate.

It also says vessels - this could mean that spheres or scouts could have been part of the 400 ships totaled - hell even the small borg probes.

You once again call them cowards or infer they are small when you have no evidence.

Remember Voyager had a wapon that could destroy 8472 at will - if 8472 didnt back off the borg would have gotten the weapon and used it to construct a bomb (like the one they thought would defend all of borg space) thus destroying them easily.

Once 8472 realise the Borg cant destroy them at a whim they attack the Borg again.

[SirNitram]

1) The Borg will definately blink. There is no evidence of them ever facing a foe that is so resistant to adaptation and assimilation, and capable of shattering planets.

2) The Borg have shown no ability to live on moons and planets other than M-type as you claim. I remind you almost all Borg we see are human, and will most likely require human-suitable worlds. Post proof if you got it.

3) Of course we infer that the Fuglies are small and weak. They run with their tails between their legs after a few capital ship losses, and fear the Federation!

4) The 5 Megaton bomb again? *snicker*

5) No proof, so STFU.

6) The Empire will be able to shatter Bioships at will, therefore they will run again, according to your theory.

[Darth Wong]

We are told that the Borg have 1000s of systems - you think they are going to blink after having 8 destroyed in total?

The United States has thousands of cities and towns. You think they are going to blink about having a few of them destroyed, particularly if they have no defense against the attackers? Oh, wait ...

Thus having 8 inhabitated planets/moons in one system wouldnt be impossible, now why have that many Borg cubes in an area - prehaps 8472 where striking at the heart of the Borg or maybe it was a transwarp hub etc I can only speculate.

At less than 2 million drones per planet, the term "inhabited" is a bit of an exaggeration. "Marginally occupied" would be more accurate.

You once again call them cowards or infer they are small when you have no evidence.

Bullshit. The evidence has been stated and restated over and over again, and you ignore it. They retreated in confusion and never came back after taking a half-dozen casualties. That's cowardice.

Remember Voyager had a wapon that could destroy 8472 at will - if 8472 didnt back off the borg would have gotten the weapon and used it to construct a bomb (like the one they thought would defend all of borg space) thus destroying them easily.

Oh, puh-leease. It's not cowardly to run away if the enemy has a weapon that can destroy your ships?

Nazi Germany had weapons that could destroy human beings at will: bullets and explosives. If the Allies didn't back off, they would construct bombs and long-range missiles, thus causing massive casualties. This means that the Allies will run away and never come back. Right? Oh, wait ... that's not what happened. Why? Because the Allies were not cowards. But species 8472 is.

Once 8472 realise the Borg cant destroy them at a whim they attack the Borg again.

Yeah, sure. Then why aren't the Borg taking heavy losses, the way they did the first time? What evidence do you have for their return? Some vague dialogue? The Borg were probably trying to invade S-8472 space again, hence some renewed skirmishes. No new S-8472 offensive was ever seen.

[TheDarkling]

1.Yes but 8 planets isnt a huge defeat for them.

2.Most Borg aint human to suggest that is beyond funny. We have seen Borg living in space so I dont think they need a class M world.

3.A waepon that could destroy them totally - they had no chance to win against that sort of power - once they realise the Borg aint got the weapon anymore they restart the war.

4. ???

5.We know the borg have ships other than Cube ships - to assume all the vessels destroyed were cubes is rather foolish, my proof would be common sense but its understandable you not noticing that..

6.Yes but the empire cant win the war in one shot.

[TheDarkling]

They did return - prehaps not in force like the first time but they did return.

If the Nazis had a huge red button that could destroy the allies in one press the Allies would have backed off.

Notice that once the USSR had the power to level the US that the US never engaged them in fullscale war - all we got was war by proxy.

At best it would have been 500,000 per planet and even then thats way to high.

[SirNitram]

Removed quote tags because when I try and do this with them, they hate my ass.


1.Yes but 8 planets isnt a huge defeat for them.


It's what is Canonly stated to be what they lost. You have no proof of more planetary destructions.


2.Most Borg aint human to suggest that is beyond funny. We have seen Borg living in space so I dont think they need a class M world.


We have seen Borg walking around on the surface of starships, but they remain humans with extensive cybernetic implants. If you have seen non-Human Borg Drones, please post proof. If you have seen them on other classes of worlds, please post proof.


3.A waepon that could destroy them totally - they had no chance to win against that sort of power - once they realise the Borg aint got the weapon anymore they restart the war.


They retreated in cowardice and never came back. You have no proof they would restart hostilities. If you do, post it. Or fuck off. It's not that hard, Darkling.


4. ???


Pardon, I misread your statement, and thought you were referring to the 'awesome' 5 million isoton mine. Statement retracted.


5.We know the borg have ships other than Cube ships - to assume all the vessels destroyed were cubes is rather foolish, my proof would be common sense but its understandable you not noticing that..


I see I wasn't clear. I apologize. I meant this for your statement that they would return to attack Borg space.


6.Yes but the empire cant win the war in one shot.

But they can take out six Bioships in one volley, far faster than Voyager and it's magic probes were managing.

[TheDarkling]

1.Yes but 8 planets isnt a huge defeat for them.


It's what is Canonly stated to be what they lost. You have no proof of more planetary destructions.

Yes I was just saying what I interpreted that as but if you choose to disagree thats fine since its open to interpretation.

2.Most Borg aint human to suggest that is beyond funny. We have seen Borg living in space so I dont think they need a class M world.


We have seen Borg walking around on the surface of starships, but they remain humans with extensive cybernetic implants. If you have seen non-Human Borg Drones, please post proof. If you have seen them on other classes of worlds, please post proof.

ST:FC we see Cardassian, Klingon, Vulcan, Bolian and so on.

We have also seen species that look like humans but arent (TOS mostly but some others aswell).

The borg existed before they met humans so obviously drones arent all human (if the queen is from the original borg species then they looked human thus that race makes up the bulk of the borg).

If they can survive in space they can survive on a moon, we also know that they converted Earth to unlivable so a cklass M oxygen atmosphere isnt necessary.

3.A waepon that could destroy them totally - they had no chance to win against that sort of power - once they realise the Borg aint got the weapon anymore they restart the war.


They retreated in cowardice and never came back. You have no proof they would restart hostilities. If you do, post it. Or fuck off. It's not that hard, Darkling.

They retreated from a battle they couldnt win and they did attack the Borg again however it is possible the Borg started it again.

6.Yes but the empire cant win the war in one shot.

But they can take out six Bioships in one volley, far faster than Voyager and it's magic probes were managing.

Agreed but they arent as big a problem as those nanoprobes would have been if the Borg had them (which 8472 didnt know if they had or would get them).

At best they can protect certain planets but they cant attack 8472's home domain and dont have a way to innoculate space against 8472 attacks.

Its the differance between taking on an enemy with amazing forces (imps) in the field and an enemy with three guys holding sticks in the field but they have 30 ICBMs at home (the nano probe holders).

[SirNitram]

I will concede the Borg Species/Habitability argument until I can re-watch FC.

They could have won, easily. Sent the 1000s of Bioships you claim would be attacking a planet to get Voyager. You'll take losses, but it will go down. But they didn't. They ran the fuck away. As for re-engagement, please state episode and quote, please. That's why I asked for proof, you see.

Look, Darkling, at best a nanoprobe equipped ship will take out one Bioship a volley. A ISD will take out a minimum of six a volley, and keep doing it. You can claim 'magic tech, it's worse', but I do not give a shit. They will take far higher losses against the Empire. The losses will be higher than facing nanoprobes. By your own admission, they are facing a foe they can't defeat, and they will, as you claimed, retreat. Now, if you have some proof they would not retreat from a foe that fills the requirements you yourself set down, post it. Or concede.

[Mr. B]

This thread keeps going back and forth, back and forth.

Face it. THE EMPIRE WILL STOMP ON 8472 and FRY THEM UP FOR LUNCH!!!!!!!!!!

[LordShaithis]

A - After months of war against the Borg, a foe with ships, defenses, and weapons far inferior to those of the Empire, 8472 managed to destroy 312 ships and 8 planets? That's not terribly impressive. Those losses would be nothing to the Empire, and it's likely Imperial losses would be less anyway since they're superior to the Borg.

B - If 8472 could just pop out of fluidic space, fire off a planet-killer shot, and be gone before anyone could stop them (as some like to claim) then it WOULDN'T HAVE MATTERED what sort of funky weapons the Borg had.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: Voyager wasnt the threat - they believed that the Borg and Voyager were allies meaning that attacking Voyager would cause the collective to come after them into their own realm spitting nano probes thus crushing them.

Hmmm the episode is Unimatrix Zero and someone in unimatrix zero is on a ship engaging 8472 - its in this thread somewhere Ill take a look in a minute if I can find an exact quote.

The empire is more of a threat in the field but he nano probe presented a threat to 8472s realm since we have no evidence to suggest the Imps can go there the worst the imps can do is destroy a few ships.

8472 can engage planets, destroy them and be back in fluidic space inside a minute thus even if imps have ships in the area they will take heavy damage.

Once 8472 have taken to much damage they withdraw, lick their wounds and then begin again (which this new offensive may point to).

Every single Imp planet isnt protected in fact I doubt more than half have a good solid defense (1 Million systems) thus quick strikes could hurt the imps badly.

8472 then think "ouch lets rebuild" they retreat and rebuild.

Begin again.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

Does anyone have a guess at the numbers of 8472 involved or the range of the Pk beam?

[TheDarkling]

GrandAdmiralPrawn: Yes the nanoprobes do matter because the Borg would go into 8472s space and wipe them out.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Perhaps the most important thing to remember about both the Borg and Species 8472 is the following:

Neither party has ever displayed anything remotely resembling tactical or strategic ability.

The standard Borg response to any tactical or strategic problem is to keep throwing drones and cubes at it until the problem goes away. The height of naval tactical brilliance on the part of the Borg is to cruise into the midst of a formation of enemy ships and then sit there, laboriously picking off enemy ships one by one while allowing them to blast away at the cube. Faced with an enemy resistant to the almighty power of the cube, the Borg do odd things.

Thus, for instance, thwarted by the Federation and losing a few cubes in the process, despite their two attempts to make one cube take over the entire Federation, the Borg do not do the obvious and simply send a fleet of a dozen or so cubes to take care of the problem quickly and decisively. Instead, they begin a goofy research project involving a large-breasted drone and contemplate the possibility of infecting the entire human homeworld with a covert nano-doohickey to covertly borgify the humans.

Faced with enemies that can pop their cube-ships but display a marked vulnerability to kinetic impacts, the Borg do not simply do the obvious, instead cutting a deal with the Voyager crew and admitting that the Borg are incapable of dealing with the threat on their own.

The most obvious option would have been to ring each Borg world with several layered shells of the small cube scoutships of I, Borg fame, each with a crew of less than 10 Borg drones, a few hundred such mini cubes per shell. The total hardware commitment would be perhaps comparable to that of deploying one standard cube for defense. As soon as bioships deploy from their patented quantum singularity, several dozen of the nearest mini cubes attack, firing to confuse the aim of the attackers and then physically ramming the bioships, swamping them with sheer numbers.

A similar tactic could be used in fluidic space, a core force of standard full-size cubes accompanied by several thousand small cubes simply cruising into fluidic space. The large cubes establish a defended zone around the entry point into fluidic space and deploy a defensive screen of a few thousand mini cubes around the large cubes. After that, the remaining mini cubes go hunting in several roving packs of a few hundred each. Whenever sufficient fresh mini cubes have been produced, the singularity is opened again and a few hundred of the little ships join the fight.


Species 8472 is similarly inept. We have canon evidence of the bioships being able to travel at warp, since the visuals of the one known ramming attack by a cube on a bioship show streaming stars. We have canon evidence of the bioship beam weapon being able to fire at warp and being able to destroy a full-size Borg cube with a solid hit or two. We have canon evidence of a cluster of 9 bioships, possibly requiring a special core ship, being able to destroy Borg-held worlds with one sustained blast ...

So what does Species 8472 do when faced with an enemy equipped with a weapon capable of destroying a limited number of its bioships? It runs. The only reasonable tactical and strategic response would have been the following:

Since 8472 knows that Voyager is vulnerable to bioship beams, deploy the surviving bioships of the small fleet that followed Voyager into real space individually. Using simple 3D tactics, the bioships split up to englobe Voyager and pound the threat to pieces within seconds. Failing that, they fall back and initiate rapid strikes by individual bioships. Either method will kill Voyager, the first one quickly, the second more slowly, but the final result is not in doubt.

Retreating from the threat was the worst possible response.

[septesix]

I'm not on either side of the 8472 or the Empires. But I'm sick and tired of people saying that 8472 runs away after a few loss!

Just because they change tatic doesn't mean they stopped fighting. It means that they actaully had the brain to think of something other than brutal force to defeat their enemies.

Not to metion that the Borg are still fighting 8472 at the end of Season 6, over 2 years after the events in voyager, and they fight them in at least TWO Quardrant, Delat and Gamma.

8472 also clear an entire passage inside the Borg space, making a zone that are completely void of ANY Borg activites, this in just a few month's of war time.

as for the "8 Planets Destroied, 312 Cubes lost, 4 Million Drone Lost", watch Scorpion again. I persoanlly believe that it meant just that brief engagement.

7of9 also siad that the Borg would lose the war in just a few months.

Also, the only CANON destruction of 8472 vessal is by either A) Ramming the bioship or B) use the special designed nano-probe. We've yet seen a Bioship destroied by sheer fire power alone. (at least not in either Scorpion espiode)

as for blowing up the planets. The Bioships fire on the planet for 14 seconds, the planet surface appear to be melting or turning red hot as each second pass. Finally it blew completely and destroyed two of the 3 cubes around.

Those are just the "CANON FACT" from the show. I hope I didn't put too many IMO in it.

Of course, there's also the repetivly FAILED attemp for 8472 to destroy Voyager, and this, more than anything else, is going to be the reason 8472 might lose.

Beside, for those who asked why they'd fight, IT"S BECAUSE I SAID SO

[Romulan_nemesis]

possibilityPersonally, I stand neutral. We have no idea what kind of effect their weapons could have on SW Shields, until we get more information on Species 8472's Bio Ships. Most of the Information we have is Non Cannon, coming from fanfic, fanboy statistics, and ST: Armada II. But, proving we really dont know their sheer numbers, it is still a possibility that they could wipe the floor with the Empire. Keyword: possibility!

Don't underestimate the Enemy.

Hell for all we know, they could be equal and cancel each other out.
Two bad assed factions wipe each other out. Glorious Battle!!

Rommie

[Mr Bean]

Also, the only CANON destruction of 8472 vessal is by either A) Ramming the bioship or B) use the special designed nano-probe. We've yet seen a Bioship destroied by sheer fire power alone. (at least not in either Scorpion espiode)

Thats because no one in ST uses shear fire-power outside of Torps, everything else is modulated crap that works diffrently depending on what the target is

[septesix]

So what does Species 8472 do when faced with an enemy equipped with a weapon capable of destroying a limited number of its bioships? It runs. The only reasonable tactical and strategic response would have been the following:

Since 8472 knows that Voyager is vulnerable to bioship beams, deploy the surviving bioships of the small fleet that followed Voyager into real space individually. Using simple 3D tactics, the bioships split up to englobe Voyager and pound the threat to pieces within seconds. Failing that, they fall back and initiate rapid strikes by individual bioships. Either method will kill Voyager, the first one quickly, the second more slowly, but the final result is not in doubt.

Retreating from the threat was the worst possible response.

Actually, I beg to differ. IMO they didn't retreat from the war. Think this trough from their point of view. For months they've been engaging the Borg, winning every single engagment, blasting aprt Cubes and Planets left and right. The Borg didn't even score a single wining victory. They can only kill a bioship by RAMMING it. (and the Mini-Cube might lack the mass and kinetic energy to do that). For 8472, it seems that they are virtually invincialbe!

Now, suddenly, a ship out of nowhere shows up, and in a short period of tiem, develop a weapon that turn the previously useless tropedo into a one-shot-many-kills weapon against them! Worse , it's possible that the Collective might have this tech upgrade on everything other part of the war zone already (Remember, they didn't know about the conflict between Voyager and the Borg. They see us as allies). Suddely the advantage was taken from them and they become the weaker force in this war (if a high-yield Tropedo from a small ship can kill 13 Bioships, imagine what a Cubs many times larger can do).

If they had keep fighting instead of retreating and rethink their option, that would be the stupid thing from their POV, since even if they killed Voyager, how would they know that the rest of the collective didn't have this tech? Better retreat, think things through, and find antoehr angle to approach this problem, which they did, as we seen in a later espiode.

Of course, this is all IMO.

[SirNitram]

Darkling:

Lack Of Proof = Concession Of Defeat. I repeatedly asked for quotes, yet you provided none. You keep spouting bullshit without proof, and I simply don't see any reason to both.

Things you keep claiming without proof:

Bioships can perform hit and run attacks faster than an enemy ship can react, which is plain bullshit.

Half(HAH!) the Empire has no planetary shields. I see you don't even bother to provide proof there...

That the Fuglies will do something other than what they did in Scorpion: Run away and hide.

That they have the ability to deploy anywhere.

You keep claiming that the Empire won't make them retreat when they do the exact same thing Voyager did, because you realize that you accidentally conceeded the entire debate and don't want to admit it.

'Uh... The Eights can blow up planets!!!' So can the Empire. The Empire does it more violently, far faster, and can get from target to target faster.

Unless you start posting some proof anytime soon, I say to you sir...

[septesix]

Also, the only CANON destruction of 8472 vessal is by either A) Ramming the bioship or B) use the special designed nano-probe. We've yet seen a Bioship destroied by sheer fire power alone. (at least not in either Scorpion espiode)

Thats because no one in ST uses shear fire-power outside of Torps, everything else is modulated crap that works diffrently depending on what the target is

SO? Fact is, we haven't seen it happen, so you can't assume that it will happen just because they are fighting something other than Voyager or the Borg this time.

By that logic I can also say that since no-one in Wars use Modulated weapon or shield, ST weapon can penterate SW shield at ease. But I'm hardly going to go down that route (cuz I don't really care, a Singl Starbreaker will take care both Empire and 8472 easily enough)

[septesix]

Bioships can perform hit and run attacks faster than an enemy ship can react, which is plain bullshit.

See the end of Scorpion, by the time the planet are blown, the bioships are gone already . So yes, it is CANONLY POSSIBLE to do that.

That the Fuglies will do something other than what they did in Scorpion: Run away and hide.

They didn't run, they retreat and take a different approach.

That they have the ability to deploy anywhere.

At least two Quadrant, Delta and Beta. YOu keep ignoring this.

You keep claiming that the Empire won't make them retreat when they do the exact same thing Voyager did, because you realize that you accidentally conceeded the entire debate and don't want to admit it.

Can the Empire do that? Again, I point to the fact that we have yet see a Bioship destroyed by sheer firepower alone. This doesn't mean that they are going to surive a blast from DS. But it also doesn't mean that a single HTL volley, be it 2GT or 200 GT or 2TT , is going to do the job.

Beside, if you resort to ramming tatic, well, guess what, 8472 didn't run away from that.

'Uh... The Eights can blow up planets!!!' So can the Empire. The Empire does it more violently, far faster, and can get from target to target faster.

more violently? not by much. Far Faster? only if you excluded the building time of the Deathstar. Get from target to target faster? You really can't compare.

Unless you start posting some proof anytime soon, I say to you sir...

Speak for yourself........

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: I dont have a copy of unimatrix Zero so I cant give you a quote but they are mentioned.

1.See Scorpion part 1 - they appear destroy and are gone within a minute.

2.No I meant that half the empire wont have enough of a task force in orbit to fend off 8472.
How many planets do have shields because in NJO tthe Vong attack alot of planets without shields (these arent core worlds so prehaps rim planets dont get them.)

3.I have already explained whats wrong with this reasoning as have others, do you have selective blindness?

4.We see they jump out of their space hit and jump back in thus even if they must travel in their own dimension (assuming the two relate to each other) to attack a certain place the empire would never know where they would hit next.

5.No The imp can hurt ships they cant destroy the entire race.

6.Yes but the imps have 2 planet killers (Not including Post ROTJ weapons) - both last less than a wekk they wont come in handy in a war.

7.Unless you learn how to read then I cant prove anything to you.

[seanrobertson]

Robertson, you are saying that S8472 would make a SD maneuver in order to be fired upon? I'm sure that the Empire is quaking in its power. All an ISD has to do is execute a 180 degree roll and it can fire on nearly any point in space around it with its HTL's. The only exception is directly behind it, but that area is protected by the engines themselves. S8472 would not stand a chance against either a large number of light defense guns or HTLs, which would vaporize their ships in a single hit.

S8472 would stand little or no chance against the Empire. They would lose, just as the Borg would, and just as SF would.

I'm saying a number of things, actually.

First, I said if the Eights were smart, they'd exit their "fluid space"
from a point at which they could nail an Imperator (or whatever)
without facing the brunt of the latter's firepower.

Second, though I didn't say as much, I anticipated someone mentioning
an ISD barrel-rolling or pulling a 180 to destroy its attackers. There
are precedents for such maneuvers (mostly in the EU), but it TAKES
TIME. Remember TESB? "Evasive action" didn't exactly show a miniscule
turn radius for ISDs. Their linear acceleration is staggering, but it
TAKES TIME for them to completely turn around--MORE time than
the Eights would need to generate a blast sufficient to kill anything
short of the Death Star I'd guess. (Remember, the initial blast
from the Eight ships in "Scorpion" did tremendous damage to
the targetted planet, comparable to many descriptions of what
axial superlasers on some SSD classes do.)

But that's assuming they *could* maneuver into an effective six, as
I said (though I don't think it really matters...I still no of no instances
in which heavy turbolasers have shot at something with the kind of
target profile an Eight bioship presents...and frankly, no, I doubt
light turbolasers would have immediate effect).

I also have to disagree that the Eights "wouldn't stand a chance." If
they were dedicated to win, victory wouldn't be impossible...it's simply
that their resolve is highly questionable. We also don't know that they're
capable of traversing galactic distances in a reasonable timeframe.

To be sure, they stand a FAR better chance at giving the Empire trouble
than the Borg or Starfleet EVER could.

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[septesix]

Sean, the guy wasn't talking about turning the ISD 180 degrees. but ROLLING the ship (like you'd roll a rod) 180 degree , making it upside down (as if that has any meaning in space). This way, I believe, would give the IDS complete fire coverage on every angle of the ship except their back side where the engine is.