Israel Considering Saudi Peace Plan

[hongi]

And of course, in this case, their cohesiveness DOES undermine society and the international community's greater good.

In what way does Jewish culture "undermine society and the international community's greater good?"

Because they use it as an excuse where no criticism can be levied for having an ethno-religious supremacist state of their own, and specifically basing their policies around keeping it ethnically and religiously pure. As Mike has said, you all have a blind spot because its Jews and the Holocaust. But these statements would be disturbing and rejected coming from Natives in your own country, as well as racial and religious groups.

That doesn't actually answer his question. What about Jewish cohesiveness undermines society and the international good?

[Illuminatus Primus]

That doesn't actually answer his question. What about Jewish cohesiveness undermines society and the international good?

Yes it does. If they didn't have the need to be cohesive (a sad euphemism for ethnically and religiously pure and dominant), then they could have accepted a multi-ethnic solution on at least some ground. The entire problem is descended from the fact Israel both wants to control the West Bank and Gaza Strip for security reasons, but will not annex the territories because they don't want to give civil rights to their inhabitants. They are gigantic, subjugated ethnic ghettos, exactly comparable to the "native nations" of Apartheid South Africa, where the white supremacist government exercised all power and sovereignty while giving an excuse to deny them the vote and equal rights.

[Big Phil]

That doesn't actually answer his question. What about Jewish cohesiveness undermines society and the international good?

Yes it does. If they didn't have the need to be cohesive (a sad euphemism for ethnically and religiously pure and dominant), then they could have accepted a multi-ethnic solution on at least some ground. The entire problem is descended from the fact Israel both wants to control the West Bank and Gaza Strip for security reasons, but will not annex the territories because they don't want to give civil rights to their inhabitants. They are gigantic, subjugated ethnic ghettos, exactly comparable to the "native nations" of Apartheid South Africa, where the white supremacist government exercised all power and sovereignty while giving an excuse to deny them the vote and equal rights.

Do us all a favor and separate your arguments between Israel specifically and Jews in general. I take no issue with the argument that Israel has acted like an asshole for the past sixty years, but that's not what you said.

I asked you how Jewish culture "undermines society and the international community's greater good?" and you responded in relation to Israel. Are you talking about Israel or about Jews in general?

[Illuminatus Primus]

[Do us all a favor and separate your arguments between Israel specifically and Jews in general. I take no issue with the argument that Israel has acted like an asshole for the past sixty years, but that's not what you said.

I asked you how Jewish culture "undermines society and the international community's greater good?" and you responded in relation to Israel. Are you talking about Israel or about Jews in general?

Well my country is certainly worse off in its foreign policy decisions and throwing soft power and money down a memory hole for Israel because even many American Jews maintain a cohesiveness that leads them to align Israel's interests with that of the United States regardless of critical thinking, and worse, condemn any dissent as bigotry and opposition to Israel. The United States has shown a bad example to the rest of the world because of its servitude to the pro-Israel vote in its elections.

[Coyote]

/snip post

All ranting and raving about history & ethnic this & that and apartheid and 'Israelis eat babies' or 'Arabs eat babies' etc aside, the reality of it all will play out over land, payouts, and economics.

So what do you think will stop this from coming about (and I have no doubt this current round of talks will get bogged down and fizzle out without much ado)?

It's interesting to ask, for sure. We have a confluence of new events-- since the last real big talks, there's been a lot of shake-up in neighboring governments, it looks like there's a new Prime Minister in Israel now (Livnat-- pending vote, of course, but at the moment it seems pretty certain) and there are just new strategic realities to take into consideration (the Palestinians have been playing ball somewhat, all the Arab states are concerned about Iran and willing to accept Israel so they can confront the Persians, etc).

This isn't playing out as usual, there's a few changes this time around. Hopefully it will be enough.

[eyl]

Much of the Israeli military in 1948 was British. The Air Force was equipped with Spitfires flown by ex-RAF veterans.

Not quite. The British assisted in training Haganah forces a couple of years before WWII, but that wasn't really approved much and the officer in charge (Wingate) was transferred away due to his superiors' displeasure. In addition, the Haganah had some veterans of WWII. However, the Jewish didn't get any kind of supply from the British - quite the contrary, they considerably hindered the Jewish efforts at armament.

AFAIK, near the beginning of the war the fledgling IAF consisted of 25 Czech S-199's. It only acquired Spitfires toward November 1948, and it got them from the Czech air force, not the RAF.

But to give the British government its due, the Jews in Plestine had been conducting terrorist operations for years. You cant really support terrorists, now, can you?

If you've missed it, I was talking about the scenario of a Jewish state in 1937. AFAIK Jewish terrorist attacks against British targets began in 1939 (and didn't really reach a large scale until thefoundation of the Lehi in 1940).

[eyl]

A few Jewish Settlements will stay in Palestine as well (Hebron & Ariel come to mind) just as some Palestinians will be welcomed back into Israel proper. But all the little hilltop settlements will either be forcibly evacuated or left to their fate, and good luck to y'all.

Actually, Hebron is unlikely to remain Israeli (though it's conceivable Israel might retain certain areas - the Jewish holy sites in particular - as autonomous or jointly-administered enclaves) - it's too deep in the WB and the settlers there are the worst of the bunch; I can't see any good done by leaving them there.

[Coyote]

The British were willing to train the Hagana and other Jewish defense groups as a possible counter to the approaching Germans, who at the time appeared quite capable of beating the British garrison at Egypt and rolling into Palestine to open a southern frontin the Caucases Mountains in Russia (while also conveniently grabbing some oil fields along the way).

It wasn't much of a stretch for the British to realize that the local Jews would be quite motivated to fight Germans.

The Germans, for their part, remembered what happened to their allies the Turks in 1917 and had courted the Arabs, so there were a number of other power-plays being played out in the region at the time.

[Coyote]

As for groups self-segregating-- the sad truth is, it happens all the time. There are many "Black schools" and there are still some same-gender schools and classes, Spanish schools, private schools (most are religious, of course, but not necessarily all of them); some people are just comfortable that way.

Sure, if everyone got along and respected one another's individual differences, the world would indeed be a better place. But again, where are the lines drawn? I'm Jewish and feel perfectly at ease among my predominantly non-Jewish neighbors, but if by chance I found some other Jewish people moved in the area I'd be happy with that; probably visit and have things in common, etc. And if a couple more families move in, then what? At what point do we become some exclusive, cliquish enclave that undermines the society of the neighborhood?

I know I'm going to be in disagreement here because I don't have the same perspective on such things that many here do. If Whites cluster together because they think their racially superior, that is indeed wrong, but if they cluster together because they have the same taste in music and have similar hobbies and interests, go to the same church, I don't see it as a threat. Same with Blacks, Jews, Hispanics, Native Americans, etc. If any of these groups banded together for reasons of "superiority", they are as wrong as Whites doing it. It is the motivation behind the banding together that I see as the problem, not the banding together in itself.

Who among us doesn't hang out with people who share similar interests, hobbies, backgrounds, social circles? Sometimes these cross ethnic lines, sometimes not.

[Samuel]

At what point do we become some exclusive, cliquish enclave that undermines the society of the neighborhood?

When outsiders aren't welcome.

but if they cluster together because they have the same taste in music and have similar hobbies and interests, go to the same church, I don't see it as a threat.

I cannot think of any conceivable reason for this to happen. How the heck are you going to get hundreds of people to all be interested in the same thing with no outsiders at all?

As for clustering around the same church, don't you see the problem with a religion becoming tied to an ethnicity?

Who among us doesn't hang out with people who share similar interests, hobbies, backgrounds, social circles? Sometimes these cross ethnic lines, sometimes not.

Once again, how is that possible? How can it be that zero people of (insert group) have an interest in something UNLESS they are being forced to conform?

[hongi]

It's interesting to ask, for sure. We have a confluence of new events-- since the last real big talks, there's been a lot of shake-up in neighboring governments, it looks like there's a new Prime Minister in Israel now (Livnat-- pending vote, of course, but at the moment it seems pretty certain) and there are just new strategic realities to take into consideration (the Palestinians have been playing ball somewhat, all the Arab states are concerned about Iran and willing to accept Israel so they can confront the Persians, etc).

This isn't playing out as usual, there's a few changes this time around. Hopefully it will be enough.

Doesn't Israel need a unified Palestinian authority to negotiate with? What about Hamas and the Gaza Strip?

[Ekiqa]

Well my country is certainly worse off in its foreign policy decisions and throwing soft power and money down a memory hole for Israel because even many American Jews maintain a cohesiveness that leads them to align Israel's interests with that of the United States regardless of critical thinking, and worse, condemn any dissent as bigotry and opposition to Israel. The United States has shown a bad example to the rest of the world because of its servitude to the pro-Israel vote in its elections.

What's really sad is that the Jewish vote is so small, only a few million.
The American government has hushed up such things as the attack on the Liberty, for such a small interest group. They didn't hush up 9/11 for the similar sized Muslim group.

The atheist/agnostic vote, on the other hand, is actively abhored, but is 30 million plus.

[hongi]

Well my country is certainly worse off in its foreign policy decisions and throwing soft power and money down a memory hole for Israel because even many American Jews maintain a cohesiveness that leads them to align Israel's interests with that of the United States regardless of critical thinking, and worse, condemn any dissent as bigotry and opposition to Israel. The United States has shown a bad example to the rest of the world because of its servitude to the pro-Israel vote in its elections.

What's really sad is that the Jewish vote is so small, only a few million.
The American government has hushed up such things as the attack on the Liberty, for such a small interest group. They didn't hush up 9/11 for the similar sized Muslim group.

That's because 9/11 killed 3000 Americans on American soil. I can't believe you made that comparison.

[Darth Wong]

The effectiveness of Jewish lobbying is buoyed by Holocaust Guilt. There's only so much mileage you can get from that; will it still work 50 years from now? 100 years from now? 150 years from now?

I don't think so. Eventually, this exceptionalist attitude will start biting them in the ass again.

[Coyote]

At what point do we become some exclusive, cliquish enclave that undermines the society of the neighborhood?

When outsiders aren't welcome.

Okay, but do you automatically assume that is the goal?

but if they cluster together because they have the same taste in music and have similar hobbies and interests, go to the same church, I don't see it as a threat.

I cannot think of any conceivable reason for this to happen. How the heck are you going to get hundreds of people to all be interested in the same thing with no outsiders at all?

I'm not sure what you're looking for... wait, I think I do know what you're looking for: you're looking for a reason to make a conflict.

How about this-- I have no real interest in things that might be considered "Hip Hop" culture (A culture that is typically more affiliated with Blacks than with Whites). I'm not a big fan of any of the music, the clothes, many of the examples of the typical lifestyle, etc. I don't have anything against it, but it also doesn't interest me. So I am "excluded" from Hip-Hop/"Black" culture. This is my choice.

It is also their choice to enjoy that culture. Should I feel like they need to change so they aren't different? Maybe they feel I should be the one to change? Does it make me racist that I'm not interested in their culture? Does it make them racist for having a culture I feel "outside" of?

As for clustering around the same church, don't you see the problem with a religion becoming tied to an ethnicity?

I don't believe you're seeing my point here. You are making the assumption that a bunch of white people are together for no other reson than because they are racist and want to exclude non-whites. I think I made the point clear that if white people are together for racist motivations, then it is bad. If white people are hanging together for non-racist reasons, and there's nothing stopping a non-white from joining them if they wanted to, there's no problem.

Let's say a bunch of white people are hanging around listening to Frank Sinatra CDs. They would gladly invite their Black neighbors over, but the neighbors don't like Frank Sinatra, they dislike his music and prefer something R&B. So there are no Blacks at the party not because of "white exclusionary policy" but because there is a difference in musical tastes. Is it racist?

So in the case of a religion "tied to ethnicity", I assume you mean a "white power" church (or potentially a "black power" church), which woulkd preach that all the members are better than other people because they are that race. Of course that's wrong.

But if you're in a black neighborhood, and the local church is full of black people, does that make it a racist church, or simply a church that reflects the local demographics? Are white people, Asians and Hispanics to be bussed in forcibly on Sundays just to prove a point? And if that is the case, why don't you instead forcibly bus the Blacks to their white, Asian and Hispanic churces instead?

It could as easily be grocery stores as churches, I just used a word that you siezed on because of the potential for loaded connoctations.

Who among us doesn't hang out with people who share similar interests, hobbies, backgrounds, social circles? Sometimes these cross ethnic lines, sometimes not.

Once again, how is that possible? How can it be that zero people of (insert group) have an interest in something UNLESS they are being forced to conform?

So... the only reason I am Jewish is because someone put a gun to my head and forced me to eat matzah? I can ssure you this is not the case. There are Jews where I live that eat bacon double cheeseburgers, I don't. It's their choice. It's also mine.

Do you not hang out with people that you like?

[Coyote]

Doesn't Israel need a unified Palestinian authority to negotiate with? What about Hamas and the Gaza Strip?

They need someone, yes, and the surrounding Arab states have been very successful in using Hamas, Fatah, etc as proxies to keep Israel tied down playing whack-a-mole for so long. Remember, technically a state of war exists between Israel and most Arab countries, but after getting beat so many times the Arab states decided to "keep up the fight" by funneling money to the interested locals (the Palestinians) and cynically burning them up to keep Israel as a threat just over the horizon.

It also helps the Arab states maintain brutal and intrusive "security" police states without having to actually fight.

But the Arabs are largely tiring of this and more worried about a nuclear armed Iran (people forget that the Arab-Persian antagonism makes the Arab-Israeli antagonism look like small potatoes in comparison).

Now, they're probably seeing the wisdom of stopping their own shit-stirring in the Palestinian Authority, getting the Pals together and negotiating an end to this so they can get on with confronting Iran.

[Coyote]

What's really sad is that the Jewish vote is so small, only a few million.
The American government has hushed up such things as the attack on the Liberty, for such a small interest group. They didn't hush up 9/11 for the similar sized Muslim group.

The atheist/agnostic vote, on the other hand, is actively abhored, but is 30 million plus.

Well, it's kind of hard to "hush up" a fucking building falling on you on live international TV. But I do seem to recall one of GW Bush's few shining moments when he very quickly got on TV and called for the people of America not to attack Muslims or commit retaliatory crimes against Arab-Americans.

[Gil Hamilton]

Well, you might have more of a point if "white" was a cultural group, rather than a large number of subgroups (and the same for "Christian", except that that isn't an ethnic group at all) And like it or not, Jewish culture is intertwined in Israeli culture - much more than "white" ulture (whatever that is) is in the US.

Are you fucking kidding me? You don't know much about white supremacists if you think that they don't think that "white" and "Christian" is a cultural group. It's no different here. Claiming that Israel MUST be Jewish is exactly the same as the bumpkins who claim that the US must be white Christians, with the same underlying logic to both. Hell, the more serious of both groups not only think that their respective countries BELONG to them, but that they were specifically granted them by God Almighty Himself.

Let me ask you this - if someone dumped, over the course of say a year, 50 million Mexican immigrants in the US, do you think that would in any way go smoothly? Now image that the US consists of only the Eastern seaboard and that the two countries have been at war for the last century.

Those 50 million Mexican immigrants also don't have any legitimate claim to the land. We didn't force them into Mexico at gunpoint, did we? Even if you point out that the United States annexed California and Texas (which is actually somewhat complicated how that happened) after the US-Mexican War, we didn't kick out the Mexicans who were living there in any large scale manner.

Really, it's a bit well past the point for the US to make good on the shit we dumped on our natives, but it's not too late for Israel to.

What you wrote wasn't correct because you left out the bolded part.

That part was approved by... you guessed it... a Jewish organization in Israel.

Which is, no doubt, why Netanyahu (the right wing's candidate for PM) is against returning the Heights but, back when he was Finance Minister, began a plan to phase out US aid.

The Golan Heights may not be critical to Israel's defense, but they help a lot.

I wonder, have you considered that the reason that both Syria and Israel consider the Golan Heights important is because one or the other of you was occupying it? That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. That land is only worth anything because you've claimed it is.

[Darth Wong]

Well, it's kind of hard to "hush up" a fucking building falling on you on live international TV. But I do seem to recall one of GW Bush's few shining moments when he very quickly got on TV and called for the people of America not to attack Muslims or commit retaliatory crimes against Arab-Americans.

Yeah, but then he told everyone to blame Iraq, which had no real connection to 9/11 except for skin colour and religion. This is racism in the modern age: take all the actions that a racist mindset would recommend, while telling everyone that we abhor racism.

[Coyote]

The Golan Heights may not be critical to Israel's defense, but they help a lot.

I wonder, have you considered that the reason that both Syria and Israel consider the Golan Heights important is because one or the other of you was occupying it? That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. That land is only worth anything because you've claimed it is.

Well, actually, the Golan Heights was used as an artillery platform by the Syrian Army to shell Israeli farms in the region. It got taken from them in one war, and given back, only to be used as an artillery platform yet again. So it got taken from them... yet again. And then it wasn't given back.

Recently, Israeli Prime Ministers have hinted that the Golan is negotiable for a real, honest peace. I don't see why that is unreasonable.

Look at it this way;
A guy hits you with a bat.
You wrestle the bat away from him.
He promises not to hit you with the bat anymore, but asks that you give it back since it is, after all, his property.
You give him the bat.
He hits you with it.
You wrestle the bat away again.
This time you keep the bat.
He whines about how you took his property.

How sympathetic and careful are you going to be? If he is willing to sign a contract saying that he won't hit you again, and people around you assure you he's a straight-up guy that can be trusted now... you'd still think carefully before giving back that bat.

[Darth Wong]

I can't help but think that if the US took the billions in military aid it gave to Israel every year and simply bribed neighbouring countries to leave Israel alone, that would actually accomplish more.

[Big Phil]

[Do us all a favor and separate your arguments between Israel specifically and Jews in general. I take no issue with the argument that Israel has acted like an asshole for the past sixty years, but that's not what you said.

I asked you how Jewish culture "undermines society and the international community's greater good?" and you responded in relation to Israel. Are you talking about Israel or about Jews in general?

Well my country is certainly worse off in its foreign policy decisions and throwing soft power and money down a memory hole for Israel because even many American Jews maintain a cohesiveness that leads them to align Israel's interests with that of the United States regardless of critical thinking, and worse, condemn any dissent as bigotry and opposition to Israel. The United States has shown a bad example to the rest of the world because of its servitude to the pro-Israel vote in its elections.

Are you illiterate? Your initial response about undermining society followed immediately after one of Mike's posts about the importance of (Jewish) assimilation into dominant cultures, and I've now asked you three times now to explain how Jewish culture "undermines society and the international community's greater good," and each time you respond with Israel rants.

[Coyote]

I can't help but think that if the US took the billions in military aid it gave to Israel every year and simply bribed neighbouring countries to leave Israel alone, that would actually accomplish more.

That's already the way it's done with Egypt!

The rest are beginning to catch on. We'll pay the Palestinians the receipts for their land; we'll pay for all the re-settlement and evacuation as needed for the Jews in Palestine, etc, etc... we'll flood Syria and Lebanon with money, declare Big Fat Peace Day and the President who happens to be in the Office at that time gets a Nobel Prize and we can cut loose a lot of the foreign aid to Israel (which indeed many Israelis say undermines their own economy and contributes to inflation there).

[Gil Hamilton]

Coyote, I think you are missing that many Jews seem to take maintaining their Jewishness a bit further than merely enjoying their own culture while living with others. Go back a few pages and read my post about growing up in the predominantly Jewish neighborhood of Squirrel Hill in Pittsburgh. I wasn't talking about the Hasidic population of the neighborhood there when I was talking about the people who won't let their kids play with non-Jewish kids and certainly won't let them date outside of the Jewish community. I was talking about the families of the people I went to school and Boy Scouts with. Even they take the whole "Chosen People of God" Don't-Intermix-With-the-Gentiles things pretty seriously.

There is always that conceit in there. Hell, that Rabbi I mentioned did talk about the issue of inter-marriage and how depending on what degree of orthodoxy they held, intermingling with the Gentiles ranges from "taboo" to "if you must" to "well, OK, no big deal". There has been tons of discrimination in history against Jews and it's revolting what various peoples and nations have done to Jewish communities in the past. However, its considerably more built into Judaism to live separate and NOT TO assimilate. That's completely plain to be seen from the Torah (where its explicitly commanded) right on down to the writings of various Jewish scholars to this day. When your religion declares that you, specifically, above all others, are God's People and he's got special rules just for you and that he cares more about your shit than anyone else, it virtually comes with the territory.

That's a big ole problem with saying "Well what's wrong with Jews enjoying their culture?" Well, normally, when some religious group or ethnicity or country's culture contains the central idea that they are just much more special than everyone else on the entire planet and they somewhat to very concerned about interacting and diluting their blood with that out outsiders, what do you call it? I'd call it institutionalized racism, myself.

[Coyote]

Coyote, I think you are missing that many Jews seem to take maintaining their Jewishness a bit further than merely enjoying their own culture while living with others. ... I was talking about the families of the people I went to school and Boy Scouts with. Even they take the whole "Chosen People of God" Don't-Intermix-With-the-Gentiles things pretty seriously.

...When your religion declares that you, specifically, above all others, are God's People and he's got special rules just for you and that he cares more about your shit than anyone else, it virtually comes with the territory.

That's a big ole problem with saying "Well what's wrong with Jews enjoying their culture?" Well, normally, when some religious group or ethnicity or country's culture contains the central idea that they are just much more special than everyone else on the entire planet and they somewhat to very concerned about interacting and diluting their blood with that out outsiders, what do you call it? I'd call it institutionalized racism, myself.

So you've discovered that any population, no matter how you slice it (Gays/Straights; Blacks/Whites; Democrats/Republicans; etc) will have assholes among them. So why hang all of them out to dry because of that?

The thing about many of us Jews is that we feel like there've been many good reasons to be hyper-sensitive about getting too cozy with the non-Jews. A lot of Jews feel that Gentiles can't be trusted, that it's only a matter of time before they turn on you when it becomes politic to do so, that by inter-marrying it is part of a Christian plot to convert your descendants into Christianity. In other words, Jews are taught, as children, many asinine things just like some Gentile children are taught (Jews will take your money, they'll cheat you, they use the blood of Christian babies to make matzah --although I admit I doubt that one's been used much lately).

But from my perspective, it's not the Judaism (or the whatever-ism) that's the problem, it's the asinine things that ignorant parents teach their kids. Folks are free to be as Black or as White or as Jewish or Indian etc as they want to be, so long as they remember two things: one, it doesn't make them "better"; two, it doesn't make everyone else "worse".

The whole "chosen people" thing gets under my skin, too, really. It is supposed to mean that in the afterlife, the Jews are "chosen" to serve as the priests to everyone else. See, in Judaism, everyone pays for their sins (even the best of Jews has to be punished for what he or she did wrong, there's no get-out-of-jail-free card with a Jesus-type figure) and it is accepted that the "righteous of all nations will have a place in the world to come". Basically, everyone goes to heaven, it's not an exclusive club to those who do or accept certain things.

I know, it's all BS to most of the folks here, but for those who believe this stuff, or purport to, the "chosen people" shpiel is supposed to mean something entirely different from some sort of "we're better'n you" bullshit that gets shoved down the throats of some kids (not in my synagogue, though, I can assure you since I teach there every week and interact with the kids on a regular basis). I can theorize that it is told to kids so they "stick to their own" but I can't prove that, so take it with a grain of salt.

Really, I see the "chosen people" thing completely differently. In the afterlife, I have a job. I don't get to play a damn harp all day and lounge around. I'm "chosen" to get to work. Damn, there's always a pyramid to build somewhere, isn't there?