Estonia - tear gas and water guns against protestors

[Mange]

Realpolitik.

Yes, you're right about that, Stas.

As a side note, do you know that millions marched on 1st May, there were lots of groups and parties at the demonstration but regardless of political orientation, they all were united by anti-Estonian slogans.

Interesting, I didn't know that.

[CJvR]

As a side note, do you know that millions marched on 1st May, there were lots of groups and parties at the demonstration but regardless of political orientation, they all were united by anti-Estonian slogans.

This is probably the biggest insight into populist politics. Some sentiments - especially anger and resentment - are easier to exploit than others.

Always a solution for domestic troubles - A short victorious war, hopefully it will stay a war of words and $$$.

[K. A. Pital]

If you're a government and you want to unite your opponents and supporters - the best idea would be finding an external source of common animosity. Sadly, Estonia has done exactly that for the Russian government, a convenient scapegoat.

P.S. Is it true that the Russian embassy was attacked with stones in Sweden?

[Mange]

P.S. Is it true that the Russian embassy was attacked with stones in Sweden?

Unfortunately, yes. You can read more about it here.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well is that suprising? In that they only used stones maybe.

[K. A. Pital]

In that they only used stones maybe.

Do you suggest this was a good idea? Or that they should've used bombs? Or perhaps Russian rioteers should use grenades as a "retaliation"? What are you getting at with this shit?

[Colonel Olrik]

Do you suggest this was a good idea? Or that they should've used bombs? Or perhaps Russian rioteers should use grenades as a "retaliation"? What are you getting at with this shit?

It's still not surprising. Idiots assault Swedish officials and cars in Russia, idiots throw stones at Russia's embassy in Sweden. Seems like perfectly normal escalation to me. Or the "realpolitik" that you say applies to Russia can't for some reason be applied to the rest of Europe?

[K. A. Pital]

Seems like perfectly normal escalation to me.

I don't think "idiots" are normal. Neither am I a big fan of what is happening, I'd wish idiots on both sides be curtained (sadly I see little government will to do that and tame the nationalists, probably realpolitik applies to Sweden too although I don't think they have such a strong nationalist lobby ..?).

But "surprising that they used stones" looks like some sort of veiled threat.

[Colonel Olrik]

I don't think "idiots" are normal. Neither am I a big fan of what is happening, I'd wish idiots on both sides be curtained (sadly I see little government will to do that and tame the nationalists, probably realpolitik applies to Sweden too although I don't think they have such a strong nationalist lobby ..?).

You don't need a strong nationalist lobby. Skinheads in Portugal or Germany are an endangered species but if you make a rallying point for trouble some will always come. The difference is that usually you'll have massive counter-manifestations, while in this case "normal people" don't care that much. I agree with you about what to do with them, though.

But "surprising that they used stones" looks like some sort of veiled threat.

A Finn making a small jab at Russia? noo..

[His Divine Shadow]

Do you suggest this was a good idea? Or that they should've used bombs? Or perhaps Russian rioteers should use grenades as a "retaliation"? What are you getting at with this shit?

It's still not surprising. Idiots assault Swedish officials and cars in Russia, idiots throw stones at Russia's embassy in Sweden. Seems like perfectly normal escalation to me. Or the "realpolitik" that you say applies to Russia can't for some reason be applied to the rest of Europe?

This. Russia is pissing of most of europe as we speak and you don't expect shit like this to happen? Its been quite tame so far I think. We probably haven't seen the last of it by a long shot.

[K. A. Pital]

We probably haven't seen the last of it by a long shot.

I think it's over already. These are just lame after-effects.

[Mange]

We probably haven't seen the last of it by a long shot.

I think it's over already. These are just lame after-effects.

I'm glad that things have begun to calm down. I just read an excellent editorial in a Swedish newspaper by a history professor who wrote that the myth that Soviet troops liberated Estonia is still living in Russia. What the professor was referring to is the fact that the Russians who were killed in Tallinn were killed by forces loyal to the reinstated democratic Estonian government and not by Germans who had evacuated Tallinn days before the Red Army entered the city. The Tief government, which had been appointed by the pre-war Prime Minister Uluots, saw its opportunity as the German retreated and declared the continuity of the Estonian government and declared neutrality in the war and the Estonian flag was hoisted. The Tief government represented the de jure continuity which was carried on by the exile government. In September 22, elements of the Red Army entered Tallinn and was engaged by the militia. Of course, it ended with 50 years of occupation starting with the Estonian flag being replaced by the hammer and sickle.

Part of the myth is also that the Estonians were fascists. I think it's important for the Russian people to try to see things from the viewpoint of the Estonians. The Soviet Union was an aggressor who invaded and occupied the country in 1940 and deported scores of Estonians. In '41, the Germans were initially seen as liberators, but the true nature of the Germans would soon be made clear. Then in '44, it's hardly surprising that people rose to arms against the Red Army, the vast majority weren't fascists, they were trying to protect their country against an invader whose intentions had been made clear earlier. And the people who fled weren't "fascists" as some has tried to label them here, but refugees.

[K. A. Pital]

What the professor was referring to is the fact that the Russians who were killed in Tallinn were killed by forces loyal to the reinstated democratic Estonian government and not by Germans who had evacuated Tallinn days before the Red Army entered the city.

No, that's most definetely wrong.

Those people did not die in the battles for Tallin - neither were there any battles with the Uluots "government" (not much more than a Nazi puppet), this government simply left even before the Soviet troops arrived in Tallin.

In September 22, elements of the Red Army entered Tallinn and was engaged by the militia.

Not really. I can't even call that "engaged". And the people who're under the Bronze Soldier died fighting Nazis in places other than Tallin.

Part of the myth is also that the Estonians were fascists.

Um... there were Estonians and Estonian collaborationists. The first were citizenry. The second - fascist scum which should be treated accordingly. I think today because of the Russian nationalist upsurge Estonians in general get confused with the collaborationists, which clearly was not so.

Then in '44, it's hardly surprising that people rose to arms against the Red Army

There wasn't a large majority fighting against the Red Army - those units were composed of collaborationists from Estonian police under Nazi occupation which as you know have been fascists and even nazis to the core, taking part in the execution of the Holocaust under SS-SD guidance.

And the people who fled weren't "fascists" as some has tried to label them here, but refugees.

I could call a "refugee" a citizen of Estonia, but NOT a member of the collaborationist police battalions which were the terror tool of the Nazi administration of Ostland. There should be a clear difference between them.

[Mange]

What the professor was referring to is the fact that the Russians who were killed in Tallinn were killed by forces loyal to the reinstated democratic Estonian government and not by Germans who had evacuated Tallinn days before the Red Army entered the city.

No, that's most definetely wrong.

Those people did not die in the battles for Tallin - neither were there any battles with the Uluots "government" (not much more than a Nazi puppet), this government simply left even before the Soviet troops arrived in Tallin.

Care to back that up? And the "Nazi puppet" BS is getting old. That government was the legal government of Estonia and it was established in 1938, two years before the first illegal Soviet invasion. Heck, Uluots

In September 22, elements of the Red Army entered Tallinn and was engaged by the militia.

Not really. I can't even call that "engaged". And the people who're under the Bronze Soldier died fighting Nazis in places other than Tallin.

Care to back that up?

Then in '44, it's hardly surprising that people rose to arms against the Red Army

There wasn't a large majority fighting against the Red Army - those units were composed of collaborationists from Estonian police under Nazi occupation which as you know have been fascists and even nazis to the core, taking part in the execution of the Holocaust under SS-SD guidance.

And a large majority as you put it weren't fascists or nazis and had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

And the people who fled weren't "fascists" as some has tried to label them here, but refugees.

I could call a "refugee" a citizen of Estonia, but NOT a member of the collaborationist police battalions which were the terror tool of the Nazi administration of Ostland. There should be a clear difference between them.

Agreed.

[K. A. Pital]

Care to back that up?

Only several of those who are buried under the memorial died in battles for Tallin on 22 September - most of them died before or after that and in other locations. I can list all the names with exact dates, causes of deaths and locations, which have been extracted from the archives of the 40th front losses. Suffice to say that even of those who died on 22nd April, only 1 died in Tallin proper, and several others died in battles versus German forces at the regional lakes and swamps.

And the "Nazi puppet" BS is getting old. That government was the legal government of Estonia and it was established in 1938, two years before the first illegal Soviet invasion. Heck, Uluots

Uluots. He's known for the radio broadcast of 7th February 1944, where he called on Estonian citizens (who were not really keen on the Nazis) to enlist in Nazi-formed collaborationist units. Not that only, but he went around South Estonia in a trip to call the citizens to enlist in Nazi units. His close underlings continued the propaganda of those units in other places. Due to those efforts, Nazis were able to enlist some 32 000 estonians in their units into border guards, police units and SS units. The occupation administration even thought of changing Hjalmar Mae for Uluots, but Mae's ties with the Reichskommisariat "Ostland" were still strong. The government of Otto Tief which Uluots formed was nothing but a ruse, with full knowledge of the retreating Germans - it was formed on 18 august, on 19 august Uluots called on a - absolutely and totally futile - fight against the Red Army. In three days, his text was published in the Nazi-controlled "Sakala" paper.

What was going on here? It was clear that under the great Soviet advance, Estonia is not going to hold. Nazis were running away, but they wanted to create as many problems as possible for the Soviet advance - and they decided that telling Estonians to "die for their new government" is a viable way to recruit some new manpower to slow down the Soviet Army.

Of course the Nazis were okay with that, they were losing the fight anyway and they knew Estonia didn't stand a chance in hell to maintain any sort of independence, especially as only several thousand strong nationalist militias have been formed - a pebble before the grand battle against the Nazis, which only slowed down the eventual Soviet victory.

And a large majority as you put it weren't fascists or nazis and had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

True. A large majority of citizenry didn't fight the Soviet offensive as well. But many nationalists from clearly fascist organizations such as the Poliziebattalionen and the Omakaitse were.

Those who were misled to join a totally futile anti-soviet guerilla affair - which was futile from the start, and I bet everyone with half a brain understood that - have, and I agree with that, injustly suffered after the war, but as I said, many Baltic deportees (who mostly constited of such anti-Soviet nationalists) have been re-patriated in 1954.

[Sean Mulligan]

A good article about the issue. http://www.counterpunch.org/rea05022007.html

[Mange]

Care to back that up?

Only several of those who are buried under the memorial died in battles for Tallin on 22 September - most of them died before or after that and in other locations. I can list all the names with exact dates, causes of deaths and locations, which have been extracted from the archives of the 40th front losses. Suffice to say that even of those who died on 22nd April, only 1 died in Tallin proper, and several others died in battles versus German forces at the regional lakes and swamps.

It's my understanding and recollection that the remaining German troops had been evacuated from the area well before the arrival of the Red Army and that the skirmishes between the Red Army and Estonian militias raged on in the swamps outside of the city proper for several months.

And the "Nazi puppet" BS is getting old. That government was the legal government of Estonia and it was established in 1938, two years before the first illegal Soviet invasion. Heck, Uluots

Uluots. He's known for the radio broadcast of 7th February 1944, where he called on Estonian citizens (who were not really keen on the Nazis) to enlist in Nazi-formed collaborationist units. Not that only, but he went around South Estonia in a trip to call the citizens to enlist in Nazi units.

It was unfortunate that Uluots had to do so, but he understood where things were going. Uluots had tried hard to secure the independence of Estonia after the German invasion in '41 (remember that Uluots represented the legal government of Estonia) and when that failed, he was forced to go underground, joining up with the resistance movement which would later form under the National Committe umbrella. When the Germans were in retreat, it's obvious why he acted as he did. So calling Uluots a "Nazi collaborator" is built on ignorance and too much listening to propaganda.

His close underlings continued the propaganda of those units in other places. Due to those efforts, Nazis were able to enlist some 32 000 estonians in their units into border guards, police units and SS units.

See further below.

The occupation administration even thought of changing Hjalmar Mae for Uluots, but Mae's ties with the Reichskommisariat "Ostland" were still strong. The government of Otto Tief which Uluots formed was nothing but a ruse, with full knowledge of the retreating Germans - it was formed on 18 august, on 19 august Uluots called on a - absolutely and totally futile - fight against the Red Army.

No, you've gotten the dates wrong. The Tief government was announced on September 18th in the confusing situation which arose as the German military was evacuating the last units from Tallinn and the German controlled government had collapsed. And of course it was futile. The Estonians didn't have any heavy weapons and not enough men to fight the Soviet onslaught and the Germans at the same time.

In three days, his text was published in the Nazi-controlled "Sakala" paper.

No, it was actually published in the Riigi Teataja.

What was going on here? It was clear that under the great Soviet advance, Estonia is not going to hold. Nazis were running away, but they wanted to create as many problems as possible for the Soviet advance - and they decided that telling Estonians to "die for their new government" is a viable way to recruit some new manpower to slow down the Soviet Army.

You must understand why people were willing to mobilize to fight the Red Army (and also fight the retreating Germans). The Germans were retreating and the Russians were advancing. People were hardly oblivious to what had happened in 1940-41 under Soviet occupation. The vast majority of the people didn't fight for the Germans or were collaborators or fascists. It's bad enough when Russians calls the Estonians "fascists" today, but it outright disgusts me when I hear Russian officials saying the same thing. Estonia (and the other Baltic states) got caught between two madmen, Hitler on one side and Stalin on the other.

Of course the Nazis were okay with that, they were losing the fight anyway and they knew Estonia didn't stand a chance in hell to maintain any sort of independence, especially as only several thousand strong nationalist militias have been formed - a pebble before the grand battle against the Nazis, which only slowed down the eventual Soviet victory.

Well, they managed to keep the Red Army at bay for several months on the Narva front.

And a large majority as you put it weren't fascists or nazis and had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

True. A large majority of citizenry didn't fight the Soviet offensive as well. But many nationalists from clearly fascist organizations such as the Poliziebattalionen and the Omakaitse were.

Indeed. Elements of the Omakaitse were involved in the killing of Jews and other activities which must be condemned without pardon.

Those who were misled to join a totally futile anti-soviet guerilla affair - which was futile from the start, and I bet everyone with half a brain understood that - have, and I agree with that, injustly suffered after the war, but as I said, many Baltic deportees (who mostly constited of such anti-Soviet nationalists) have been re-patriated in 1954.

Yes, while tens of thousands of were murdered or died as a result of the slave labour. With the example of Estonia, the guerilla warfare continued until the early 50's when the Soviets struck down on the rural population which made it impossible to continue.

[K. A. Pital]

It's my understanding and recollection that the remaining German troops had been evacuated from the area well before the arrival of the Red Army and that the skirmishes between the Red Army and Estonian militias raged on in the swamps outside of the city proper for several months.

The Germans left Tallin in a great haste of retreat. However, the 8th Estonian corps and the Russian units clashed with Germans in the Tallin seaport where German armed boats attacked the advancing units. In the morning of 22 September the Soviet forces entered the city and crossed it in several hours. There were virtually no skirmishes, but the last Germans left Tallin IIRC by 15:00 daytime, and the mayory (city administration) symbolically handed the keys to the city to the Commander of the 8th Army general-lieutnant Filipp Starikov. The Estonian 8th Corps was one of the first units to enter the city.

And of course it was futile. The Estonians didn't have any heavy weapons and not enough men to fight the Soviet onslaught and the Germans at the same time.

In the light of the advance of million-strong armies over Belorussia and the Baltics, I find it strange that people try to rationalize these actions. Soldiers who were fighting in the 8th Estonian did a lot more for their country than those few nationalists who actually rebelled. Why? Because the victory of the Soviet Union was a historial inevitability, and prolonging the fight between the USSR and Germany only manifested itself in more deaths and longer wartime. Those who understood this and worked towards victory over Germany IMHO were far more realistic than those who listened to nationalist ideas. Realpolitik.

Estonia (and the other Baltic states) got caught between two madmen, Hitler on one side and Stalin on the other.

Stalin was a dictator, but he wasn't a madman. Hitler, on the other side, was. And most of the civilians have not joined either side. The idea that there was some sort of mass national uprising - not really. And some of the more hardline estonian insurgents - nationalists from various paramilitary organizations and former policemen - formed insurgent units which were responsible for killing a lot of common citizenry, not Soviet army. For each soldier, the insurgents killed 4-5 times more citizens - and that in peacetime!

The government of the USSR, in 1946, ran a series of repatriation of nationalists who had been caught in the first wave - in 1944. But several nationalist units operated until the 50s - however, after the 1946 repatriation the Soviet government did not risk any other repatriations until 1954.

Well, they managed to keep the Red Army at bay for several months on the Narva front.

"Months"? If you mean Nazi units like the police battalions and the SS legion - they were fighting with the Germans and with German-supplied arms. And yes, they were slowing down the eventual victory over Germany. But the nationalist bands which have been formed in September 1944? They didn't even see much fighting and neither did they manage to hold anything. The former SS-men en masse dispersed in the forests or followed the Nazi retreat into South estonia.

Yes, while tens of thousands of were murdered or died as a result of the slave labour.

The entire deportations from the Baltics amounted to several hundred thousand (230k), including post- and pre-war. They were repatriated in several waves, and the number of those who died in 1944-1953 was around 6 thousand (for Estonia), IIRC - that is including natural mortality of settlers. I'd say you could contribute several thousand dead to harshness of the climate. The mass deportation was a very harsh measure, no doubt, but it's incomparable to incarceration in prison camps. I mean, my grandfather himself was a deportee, and I have a lot of documents which detail the life and times of a Soviet deportee into Siberia 1941-1950, but deportation was different from imprisonment, and in conditions as well. I agree this was a huge suffering, but it was done in circumstances of war and then anti-guerilla operations.

I could understand if those people (I mean estonian nationalist insurgents) were paid respect, but I hardly can understand the glorification of them - there was no rational chance for them to achieve anything but only slow down the Soviet victory over Germany and the post-war reconstruction of Estonia.

I think that Estonia should be a little more realistic about their own history. This insurgency had no chances.

[Mange]

It's my understanding and recollection that the remaining German troops had been evacuated from the area well before the arrival of the Red Army and that the skirmishes between the Red Army and Estonian militias raged on in the swamps outside of the city proper for several months.

The Germans left Tallin in a great haste of retreat. However, the 8th Estonian corps and the Russian units clashed with Germans in the Tallin seaport where German armed boats attacked the advancing units. In the morning of 22 September the Soviet forces entered the city and crossed it in several hours. There were virtually no skirmishes, but the last Germans left Tallin IIRC by 15:00 daytime, and the mayory (city administration) symbolically handed the keys to the city to the Commander of the 8th Army general-lieutnant Filipp Starikov. The Estonian 8th Corps was one of the first units to enter the city.

No, the last German units left Tallinn between the 18th and 19th of September. I'm unaware of anyone handing the keys to the city, I'll have to look into that. And why are you denying that there were skirmishes between the Red Army and Estonian militia?

And of course it was futile. The Estonians didn't have any heavy weapons and not enough men to fight the Soviet onslaught and the Germans at the same time.

In the light of the advance of million-strong armies over Belorussia and the Baltics, I find it strange that people try to rationalize these actions. Soldiers who were fighting in the 8th Estonian did a lot more for their country than those few nationalists who actually rebelled. Why? Because the victory of the Soviet Union was a historial inevitability, and prolonging the fight between the USSR and Germany only manifested itself in more deaths and longer wartime. Those who understood this and worked towards victory over Germany IMHO were far more realistic than those who listened to nationalist ideas. Realpolitik.

When are you going to get through your head that it didn't have a fuck to do with Germany or national socialism and that the USSR and no fucking business in Estonia once the German military had withdrawn and certainly no fucking reason to occupy the country for almost fifty years. If you can't understand why people didn't gladly accept the Red Army after the last round of Soviet occupation and if that is indicative of how certain Russians feel (as it seems when watching certain Russian officials and people in the street), then I haven't much hope for the future relations between the West and Russia unless the Russians comes to terms with their imperialist past.

Estonia (and the other Baltic states) got caught between two madmen, Hitler on one side and Stalin on the other.

Stalin was a dictator, but he wasn't a madman. Hitler, on the other side, was.

Bullshit. Stalin was a psycopath on the same level as Hitler. His policies and statements regarding subjects such as "kulaks" and his writings which are the ravings of a madman clearly demonstrates that as well as the fact that between 20 to 60 million people died as a direct result of his policies. While the Nazis developed industrial murder, the crimes which were committed in the Soviet Union under Stalin (and Lenin) can't be forgotten about. Also, Stalin's greed was one of the contributing factors which enabled Hitler to start the Polish campaign in the first place.

And most of the civilians have not joined either side. The idea that there was some sort of mass national uprising - not really.

I'd say that the effects of the February 14 speech was a considerable national uprising.

And some of the more hardline estonian insurgents - nationalists from various paramilitary organizations and former policemen - formed insurgent units which were responsible for killing a lot of common citizenry, not Soviet army. For each soldier, the insurgents killed 4-5 times more citizens - and that in peacetime![/quote]
Interesting. Got a source for that?

The government of the USSR, in 1946, ran a series of repatriation of nationalists who had been caught in the first wave - in 1944. But several nationalist units operated until the 50s - however, after the 1946 repatriation the Soviet government did not risk any other repatriations until 1954.

Yes, while tens of thousands of others were "repatriated" into mass graves.

Well, they managed to keep the Red Army at bay for several months on the Narva front.

"Months"? If you mean Nazi units like the police battalions and the SS legion - they were fighting with the Germans and with German-supplied arms. And yes, they were slowing down the eventual victory over Germany. But the nationalist bands which have been formed in September 1944? They didn't even see much fighting and neither did they manage to hold anything. The former SS-men en masse dispersed in the forests or followed the Nazi retreat into South estonia.

Yes, of course they fought with German weapons and that was unfortunate (even more so that many of them belonged to the SS), but again, they had access to weapons and military training. However, as I've said before, it didn't have much to do with national socialism.

Yes, while tens of thousands of were murdered or died as a result of the slave labour.

The entire deportations from the Baltics amounted to several hundred thousand (230k), including post- and pre-war. They were repatriated in several waves, and the number of those who died in 1944-1953 was around 6 thousand (for Estonia), IIRC - that is including natural mortality of settlers. I'd say you could contribute several thousand dead to harshness of the climate. The mass deportation was a very harsh measure, no doubt, but it's incomparable to incarceration in prison camps. I mean, my grandfather himself was a deportee, and I have a lot of documents which detail the life and times of a Soviet deportee into Siberia 1941-1950, but deportation was different from imprisonment, and in conditions as well. I agree this was a huge suffering, but it was done in circumstances of war and then anti-guerilla operations.

Guerilla warfare against an occupier does not excuse terror operations and deportions of the civilian population.

I could understand if those people (I mean estonian nationalist insurgents) were paid respect, but I hardly can understand the glorification of them - there was no rational chance for them to achieve anything but only slow down the Soviet victory over Germany and the post-war reconstruction of Estonia.

I think that Estonia should be a little more realistic about their own history. This insurgency had no chances.

No, but is that a valid excuse?

[Sean Mulligan]

[quote="Mange

Stalin was a dictator, but he wasn't a madman. Hitler, on the other side, was.

Bullshit. Stalin was a psycopath on the same level as Hitler. His policies and statements regarding subjects such as "kulaks" and his writings which are the ravings of a madman clearly demonstrates that as well as the fact that between 20 to 60 million people died as a direct result of his policies. While the Nazis developed industrial murder, the crimes which were committed in the Soviet Union under Stalin (and Lenin) can't be forgotten about. Also, Stalin's greed was one of the contributing factors which enabled Hitler to start the Polish campaign in the first place.


?[/quote]


What did he say about Kulaks that was so terrible? The Soviet population in 1920 before Stalin came to power was 137 million and it was 182 million in 1951. How id the Soviet Union achieve such growth while losing sixty million people as well as the 25 million people lost during World War Two? Here is an article on the Soviet famine in the Ukraine which some ahve termed a holocaust. http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/sov-hol.html

[Sean Mulligan]

[quote="Mange

Stalin was a dictator, but he wasn't a madman. Hitler, on the other side, was.

Bullshit. Stalin was a psycopath on the same level as Hitler. His policies and statements regarding subjects such as "kulaks" and his writings which are the ravings of a madman clearly demonstrates that as well as the fact that between 20 to 60 million people died as a direct result of his policies. While the Nazis developed industrial murder, the crimes which were committed in the Soviet Union under Stalin (and Lenin) can't be forgotten about. Also, Stalin's greed was one of the contributing factors which enabled Hitler to start the Polish campaign in the first place.


?

Also I thought that the Soviet Union only recovered territory that it lost to Poland in the 1920s and that if the Soviet Union had not retaken those territories then the Germans would have.
What did he say about Kulaks that was so terrible? The Soviet population in 1920 before Stalin came to power was 137 million and it was 182 million in 1951. How id the Soviet Union achieve such growth while losing sixty million people as well as the 25 million people lost during World War Two? Here is an article on the Soviet famine in the Ukraine which some ahve termed a holocaust. http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/sov-hol.html[/quote]

[CJvR]

Stalin and Hitler were two sides of the same coin. There were no real difference between them in murderousness or ambition. They even murdered essentially by the same means. Except the Nazis, with German sence for organization, went a step further and industrialized the killing.

[K. A. Pital]

No, the last German units left Tallinn between the 18th and 19th of September. I'm unaware of anyone handing the keys to the city, I'll have to look into that. And why are you denying that there were skirmishes between the Red Army and Estonian militia?

I'm not denying the skirmishes, merely noting that there were still Germans elsewhere in the city (harbor for example) and that it took the RA several hours to take Tallin.

When are you going to get through your head that it didn't have a fuck to do with Germany or national socialism and that the USSR and no fucking business in Estonia once the German military had withdrawn and certainly no fucking reason to occupy the country for almost fifty years.

I'm not saying the USSR should have kept the Baltics for 50 years since the end of the war as it did - but to say it should have what - stopped it's general offensive against the German army? - in 1944 - is ridiculous. No, you will have to understand that the advance into Germany could be only made through the territories of the countries which lie between Germany and the USSR.

Bullshit. Stalin was a psycopath on the same level as Hitler. His policies and statements regarding subjects such as "kulaks" and his writings which are the ravings of a madman clearly demonstrates that as well as the fact that between 20 to 60 million people died as a direct result of his policies. While the Nazis developed industrial murder, the crimes which were committed in the Soviet Union under Stalin (and Lenin) can't be forgotten about. Also, Stalin's greed was one of the contributing factors which enabled Hitler to start the Polish campaign in the first place.

Um... a lot of bullshit here from your side. First of all, "20 to 60 million" is a myth. The whole population of the USSR was 140 million and it has grown the same as Germany or France (countries which took part in WWII and WWI) during 1917-1953. To allow for so many excess deaths in a short time and yet the aforementioned population growth, you'd need the women of the USSR to be in permanent pregnancy. That's basic demography. The real number of the victims of the Soviet penal system has long been declassified. It's in the millions, but nowhere even close to the numbers you ascribe.

The next question is - were Stalin's policies irrational? Do you find, say, the policies of a leader of an Eastern despoty who wants to build massive irrigation facilities irrational? Thousands upon thousands will die in the process. Do you find Peter the Great irrational because he forced people tbuild Petersburg in the swamps, where also hundreds of thousands died? And in what way did the enforced industrialization and collectivization differ from those policies? With brutality, they allowed the state to achieve it's industrial goals. It's hardly what you can call "irrational".

Interesting. Got a source for that?

October 1944 - January 1947, the archives of the MVD commitee on anti-banditism in the GARF detail the actions of the "forest brothers", thanks to historian Alexander Dyukov who went there for his book materials. The MGB data lists the targets of their attacks:
- MVD and MGB personnel - 15.
- policemen - 2.
- NKVD officers - 7.
- sergeants and privates of MVD forces - 29.
- Soviet Army officers - 2.
- sergeants and privates of the Soviet Army - 3.
- liqudation battalion soldiers - 30.
- party members - 126.
- civilians - 330.
Even if we include party members in military personnel, there's a huge disparity in the death toll in favour of civilians. They were not like the Russian eser, no. Of course, this is a better result than some other nationalist bands, say, in the Volyn region - but, say, the Latvian nationalists were far more organized and less terroristic towards the civilian population.

Guerilla warfare against an occupier does not excuse terror operations and deportions of the civilian population.

So what does then excuse such operations? Let me see, the United States deports their entire Japanese population simply by virtue of war. The USSR deports various nationalists from the territories - in wartime. Where's the difference? I'm not saying those actions should not be regretted, or not apologized for. As for Estonian insurgents' inability to do anything other than prolong the war - it's just a matter of fact. The whole idea of "independent nationalist units" was a ruse by the Germans to create anti-Soviet resistance. It hasn't been very successful anyway.

[Elfdart]

Stalin and Hitler were two sides of the same coin. There were no real difference between them in murderousness or ambition. They even murdered essentially by the same means. Except the Nazis, with German sence for organization, went a step further and industrialized the killing.

Do you normally keep your head up David Irving's ass or was this a special occasion? How many people did Stalin turn into lampshades? You asshole.

[K. A. Pital]

Incidentally, lampshades were not the only thing.

Nuremberg. The American prosecutor presents: a head of a human. It stood as a decorative piece on the table of the Buchenwald commandant. The head of an executed Pole was dried up in such a fashion that it shrunk itself to the size of a human fist. Quite frankly, there's a whole leap between this and mere killing of political opponents, real or imagined. A very big one indeed.