AIDS Vaccine Being Delayed; Private Companies Not Interested

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SirNitram
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Post by SirNitram »

RedImperator wrote:If you want corporations to start behaving like Good Samaratans, either the state needs to pony up the money to make it worth their while or you have to radically rethink what a corporation is supposed to be, and change the law accordingly.
Oh, I've no delusions what the current setup entails. The point is simply this is another nail in the coffin of Libertarians(Note large L) bleating along with the record that privatization fixes all ills; this is another case where private companies fuck up things in healthcare. Does the Free Market work well in many sectors? Fuck yea. But that doesn't mean it's a panacea, and this is another reminder of that: If presented with a one-time market or a long-term market, they'll gleefully fuck over the patients for profit. Required by law or not.

The rest is just the well-earned smiting of a dumbass who actually thinks it's moral to let people die based on economic value.
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Admiral Valdemar
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

mr friendly guy wrote:
If you mean by genetic shift the same as antigenic shift, I was didn't realise HIV undergoes such a process. Since such a mutation will require it to swap genes with another strain of HIV. Usually its not a problem for some influenza to have a differing strain since it infects animals as well as humans (thus having differing strains), but I don't see how human strains of HIV will say mix with a simian version of HIV since its transmitted by blood.
You don't need a cross-species barrier event to take place to get genetic mixing. It has been demonstrably shown that the populations in lymphoid tissue alone in a single human can create enough genetic variation to cause natural selection to become a real factor. Since two main sub-types of HIV exist anyway (HIV-1 being more virulent than HIV-2), that alone supports the fact that HIV is able to differentiate by enough of a margin to have two separate strains out there. This is the biggest single problem with retroviruses since they replicate so much and with such infidelity at the genetic level that selective pressures for drug resistant particles are greatly increased, which is why traditional HAART and the new prototype integrase inhibitors and fusion inhibitors will likely be temporary relief.
As for antigenic drift, we would most likely try and use it to predict what the next strain of HIV would look like the same way we try to predict what the flu would look like next year.
Knowing the antigenic sheath won't solve the problem. That just means you can see what the current strain looks like. It's like picking up a stealth bomber but not having anything to shoot it down with. If you're going to fight this thing, you need to be able to find it and make sure that you can stop it with adequate drugs, because I've not read a whole lot about good humoral defences in the form of human vaccines and acquired cell mediated immunity. The virus hides in your own killer T-cells among other things, so vaccines and relying on the human body is not that smart a move. It's a perfect plague in that respect, which has given it that 100% mortality rate.
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Patrick Degan
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Post by Patrick Degan »

LongVin wrote:And of those 40 million most of them are outside of the developed world. Also AIDs is a constantly overhyped virus. When you consider the population of the Eath at 6 billion people 40 million is a drop in the bucket.

And while lives hang in the balance the economic worth of most of those lives is nill. They can not afford medications nor can the people in the country afford the vaccine. They're is no incentive to develop a vaccine for the vast majority of AIDs cases, when the medical establishment can make money by controlling the existing cases within the developed world.

. . .

Well you can look at it this way even if someone has a negative impact on the society as long as they can work with some reasonable efficiency they are allowing others within the same apparatus to work more efficienty because they can concentrate on there jobs and not say cleaning up the place afterwards.

Now if the said invidividual has absoluetely no economic potential and no desire/ability to work they should not be the recepient of governmental handouts. Private Charity is acceptable but the government should not devote resources on those who do not wish to work.
Translation: If they are to die, why don't they get on with it and so decrease the surplus population?

There's a word for your sort of "logic".
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Patrick Degan wrote:
LongVin wrote:And of those 40 million most of them are outside of the developed world. Also AIDs is a constantly overhyped virus. When you consider the population of the Eath at 6 billion people 40 million is a drop in the bucket.

And while lives hang in the balance the economic worth of most of those lives is nill. They can not afford medications nor can the people in the country afford the vaccine. They're is no incentive to develop a vaccine for the vast majority of AIDs cases, when the medical establishment can make money by controlling the existing cases within the developed world.

. . .

Well you can look at it this way even if someone has a negative impact on the society as long as they can work with some reasonable efficiency they are allowing others within the same apparatus to work more efficienty because they can concentrate on there jobs and not say cleaning up the place afterwards.

Now if the said invidividual has absoluetely no economic potential and no desire/ability to work they should not be the recepient of governmental handouts. Private Charity is acceptable but the government should not devote resources on those who do not wish to work.
Translation: If they are to die, why don't they get on with it and so decrease the surplus population?

There's a word for your sort of "logic".
You're a bit late, I got scrooge in several pages ago ;)
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tharkûn
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Post by tharkûn »

Now undoubtedly many of you are going to dismiss this as corporate propagana, but I think that, given the amount of money that various NPOs and government organizations are throwing at the problem, this represents a signifigant risk for the corporations- afterall, if an NPO or government agency finds a viable vaccine before them, all the money they've put into R&D is wasted.
This is normal. It is routine for companies to face competition which make the race a simple first past the post. It really doesn't matter if the competition is private or public. The bigger problem is the science. HIV is so ridiciously infidelitious that even if you win the vaccine race, nature may well be a bitch and render your vaccine useless in a matter of months/years.
And how are they going to make this huge profit Mr. Arrogant Bueracrat?
Manufacturing margin. Let's assume that the vaccine is cheap enough that the WHO or whatever can afford to go for mass vaccination. In order to get useful herd immunity you will need to vaccinate well over 3/4ths of the planet (HIV is asymptomatic for years in many patients), such an undertaking will require years if not decades so you will need to account for new births and the like. Even if the manufacturers only net 50 cents a dose that is huge money merely for manufacturing the crap.
They won't own the rights to it if a government agency or a NPO discovers the cure first- which is probably the reason, aside from the volitile nature of the virus itself, why they're not investing more money in the search for a vaccine.
Vacccines are unusual medicines, their target population is the healthy and to be effective they have to be liberally administered to whole populations. Even asssuming that an HIV vaccine was a one dose for life, the necessary eradication campaign would dwarf the Polio and Smallpox campaigns. The number of doses needed will easily exceed world population and even unit profit measured in pennies will be lucrative. Sure profits will be less than if you owned the IP and simply got profit for holding that, but the margin (however slim) on an eradication campaign is still hefty money.
Nothing in life is free. Investing money in a research for a vaccine for AIDS is money that you don't have have to spend for research for another health problem- like the dozens of types of cancer that exist, or the development of new types of antibiotics. Given that there are countless health problems out there even .5% of total health spending is a huge RELATIVE investment of resources.
HIV/AIDS funding is the highest per patient of any major disease. To put it bluntly the NIH spent $31,381 per HIV/AIDS death and $1,129 per heart disease death. Granted those figures were for Americans in 1998, but even if we correct for worldwide incidence, HIV still receives disproportionate funding. Now funding shouldn't be strictly correlated to death count, some forms of medical research have broader applicability and some deaths may as well read "old age" where intervention to prevent the immediate cause of death will not greatly improve life expectancy or quality, but there should be a passing acquaintance between the two.



The real problem is not on the reward side nor that companies aren't putting out the money. Nor is it inherent to the nature of vaccines (Merck and GSK both are currently finishing off research on HPV vaccines). The problem is that HIV is possibly the most frigging difficult virus to develop a vaccine. In a typical AIDS patient the virus undergoes every possible single point mutation every day. If there is a way for the virus to circumvent the vaccine, it will be found. Eradication efforts will take decades (to date the grand total of diseases eradicated from the global human population stands at one), given that type of timeframe and known mutation rates, anything but a silver bullet will ultimately fail. The corporate suits know this as well, an HIV vaccine would be a license to print money, but the odds of one panning out are vanishingly small.

If anything I think we are spending too much money on vaccination efforts. Because of the technical challenges and the inherent biological problems, much of the money being dumping into vaccine research I think would be far better spent on social programs. To an astonishing degree, responsible behavior works as a vaccine for HIV and thus far the money would have been far better spent working on the social rather than biological solution.
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