MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

[Purple]

Maybe you enjoy being made to feel guilty but I don't. I enjoy being entertained and being made to feel good about my self. Entertainment is supposed to make you feel good so you forget how shitty life is.

Were you an adult, I am sure you would not write the nonsense you do right now.

Were you in possession of at least a bit of tact and politeness you would not be rude to people whose tastes differ from your own. I do not judge you for your radicalism.

[K. A. Pital]

Were you in possession of at least a bit of tact and politeness you would not be rude to people whose tastes differ from your own. I do not judge you for your radicalism.

You said something stupid, which has little to do with your tastes, however different they may be. Almost anything is propaganda. American entertainment is usually 90% mindless US propaganda and 10% food for thought. There is no "neutral entertainment", sorry, that's an almost nonexistent category.

[GuppyShark]

You're right Purple, the movie is absolutely pure propaganda.

Its anti-slavery propaganda.

Best not see it if that conflicts with your world views.
Cheers,

[The Romulan Republic]

Were you in possession of at least a bit of tact and politeness you would not be rude to people whose tastes differ from your own. I do not judge you for your radicalism.

You said something stupid, which has little to do with your tastes, however different they may be. Almost anything is propaganda. American entertainment is usually 90% mindless US propaganda and 10% food for thought. There is no "neutral entertainment", sorry, that's an almost nonexistent category.

Pretty much every creative work is propaganda in the sense that it reflects the attitudes/views of the maker. However, their is a difference between that and overt propaganda/blatant ham-fisted messages. Its a question of how its presented. I don't care for works that are shoving in my face "This is what you're supposed to think." Even when I agree with their point of view.

[Imperial Overlord]

Pretty much every creative work is propaganda in the sense that it reflects the attitudes/views of the maker. However, their is a difference between that and overt propaganda/blatant ham-fisted messages. Its a question of how its presented. I don't care for works that are shoving in my face "This is what you're supposed to think." Even when I agree with their point of view.

There are no speaches and no viewpoints being shoved down your throat. A story is told, a story about a female warrior who tries to rescue five women who are being held against their will as sex/breeding slaves by a warlord who exploits everything and everyone. Max is thrust into these events against his will. There is very little dialogue. The feminist themes comes from the context of the story and world it takes place in. It's never discussed in the movie.

Also Purple is leery of seeing this movie. Purple is almost always wrong about everything. So see this movie. I saw it twice.

[Purple]

Were you in possession of at least a bit of tact and politeness you would not be rude to people whose tastes differ from your own. I do not judge you for your radicalism.

You said something stupid, which has little to do with your tastes, however different they may be. Almost anything is propaganda. American entertainment is usually 90% mindless US propaganda and 10% food for thought. There is no "neutral entertainment", sorry, that's an almost nonexistent category.

That's why I mostly avoid american movies and stuff. Especially the big hollywood garbage. Doubly so anything with the american military in it.

Pretty much every creative work is propaganda in the sense that it reflects the attitudes/views of the maker. However, their is a difference between that and overt propaganda/blatant ham-fisted messages. Its a question of how its presented. I don't care for works that are shoving in my face "This is what you're supposed to think." Even when I agree with their point of view.

Finally someone who understands. Especially the last sentence.

[The Romulan Republic]

Pretty much every creative work is propaganda in the sense that it reflects the attitudes/views of the maker. However, their is a difference between that and overt propaganda/blatant ham-fisted messages. Its a question of how its presented. I don't care for works that are shoving in my face "This is what you're supposed to think." Even when I agree with their point of view.

There are no speaches and no viewpoints being shoved down your throat. A story is told, a story about a female warrior who tries to rescue five women who are being held against their will as sex/breeding slaves by a warlord who exploits everything and everyone. Max is thrust into these events against his will. There is very little dialogue. The feminist themes comes from the context of the story and world it takes place in. It's never discussed in the movie.

Also Purple is leery of seeing this movie. Purple is almost always wrong about everything. So see this movie. I saw it twice.

You misunderstand. I have no particularly concern regarding this film. I was addressing the larger issue.

I fully intend to see the film as soon as it is practical.

[biostem]

I rather enjoyed the movie. Very little downtime, and there wasn't much in the way of "mincing words". My take away from it is that if you live in a hellhole, where disfigurement, rape, and starvation are a fact of life, little things like whether you have boobs or not become irrelevant. When you don't have the luxury to worry about your appearance, things like long hair become a liability, and so you cut it off. When you're a member of an insane faction who take tattooing and scarification to ridiculous levels, a little black makeup and leather patchwork clothing are no big deal.

As for any overarching themes - my impression is that you either fight, get used, (then often discarded), or you die. Once in a rare while, in this setting, is there someone with a shred of decency. Furiosa and Max were two such people that got thrown into this situation - Furiosa by choice, and Max unwillingly. I think it is the fact that the "hero" is not the person who actually cared, nor did they initiate the plot.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Finally someone who understands. Especially the last sentence.

Wait, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but it seems to me you are saying that you won't see "Mad Max" because simply the fact that it features a strong female character makes it ham-fisted propaganda that you don't want shoved down your throat. You would have an argument if the movie interrupted its main fight sequences to showcase a panel discussion on feminism in entertainment, but that's not even close to the case. If you are made uncomfortable by just the idea of seeing a strong female character, that isn't taking a stand against propaganda, that's just being a miserable, misogynist toad.

[Purple]

Wait, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but it seems to me you are saying that you won't see "Mad Max" because simply the fact that it features a strong female character makes it ham-fisted propaganda that you don't want shoved down your throat.

No, that is NOT what I said. Here is what I said:

How much of it is there? I sort of feel uncomfortable being exposed to any sort of propaganda on principal. So I need to know how much it's going to stand out during and after the film.

Emphasis mine. I was simply asking how overtly preachy the message comes off as because if a movie has an obvious and preachy message that it keeps showing down your throat and the entire plot and themes are built around pushing that message that clashes with my personal tastes.

Now, the degree of tolerance for preachyness is an individual thing. Some people can tolerate more than others. I happen to tolerate very little. Thus the second part of my post contains the mention of a recent movie that and my feelings in regards to it. The intention of this was to give you people a benchmark based on which to judge my tolerance level and if you feel that the new Mad Max movie would be too preachy for me.

That's all. The rest is bloody Stas going on a mindless tirade. And me trying to defend my self from his attacks.
My guess would be that this part is where you got your interpretation from as well.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Does preachy propaganda usually rate 98% on Rotten Tomatoes?

[bilateralrope]

I found a blog post about Mad Max that lists the feminist tropes.

Someone, I think Roosh V, has announced that Fury Road is feminist propaganda and should be boycotted. There are three reasons that I can think to call a boycott.

First, to put economic pressure on someone. Given the size of the movie industry and the size of the MRA world, I can't imagine that anyone thinks that this might work.

Second, to keep out badthink (the SJW tactic of blockbots, etc.). Say what you will about the MRAs, but I don't think that this is their style.

Third, to create a conspicuous cost to being a member of community, thus serving as an initiation ritual of sorts, and binding the members of the community together.

It's gotta be number three, right?

< shrug >

Moving on:

So, is Fury Road a feminist movie?

I can see why the MRAs say so. It does seem to go out of its way to hit a few feminist tropes – I felt like I was reading bad lesbian science fiction from the 70s once or twice.
Spoiler

Clan of wizened "wise women"? check.

…who live a simpler, more peaceful life? check.

…and have peaceful flower-power hippie names ("Initiating Mother", "Vuvalini of the Many Mothers", "Clan Swaddle Dog", etc.)

…and carry a bag of seeds with them, a symbol of the nurturing protective womb? check.

Pro-forma enunciation that women are not property? check.

Kick-ass heroine, because girls can be just as tough as guys? check.

I've put four of them in a spoiler box because mentioning them is a spoiler, while the two I left uncovered are two already mentioned in this thread. A minor spoiler, but still a spoiler.

One of the commentators on that blog post has a rebuttal to the first three Spoiler

As for the "clan of wizened 'wise women' living a simpler, more peaceful life with peaceful flower-power hippie names"… one could only begin to label it "feminist propaganda" if it showed their society being a success. The movie instead showed it as an abject failure, their numbers down to only three or four survivors, now trapping and killing passers-by. It was more of a rebuttal to that sort of propaganda.

As for the fourth trope in that list, it was only done by a single person. So I wouldn't call any of it feminist propaganda, but I can see how it might look that way at first glance.

[Ziggy Stardust]

That's all. The rest is bloody Stas going on a mindless tirade. And me trying to defend my self from his attacks.
My guess would be that this part is where you got your interpretation from as well.

Fair enough. I didn't see that original point of yours. My b.

[Starglider]

I'm planning to watch this on our Lands End to John O' Groats road trip / action movie marathon / whiskey distillery tour (a week with some friends in October). I suspect we'll do the whole series; lots of other road movie stuff on the itinery e.g. Vanishing Point, Easy Rider, Cannonball Run.

[Steve]

Purple, having seen the movie myself, and being no fan of having messages preached at me.... if MMFR was blatant propaganda, then all movies are such. The claims of it being propaganda are incredibly overblown.

And I say that as someone who went in expecting to not enjoy it as greatly as those who recommended it because I loathe the post-apocalypse genre. Instead I got a well-directed, well-acted action movie where not even the classical "damsel-in-distress" characters were the dead-weight you'd expect them to be, but actively participated in the events.

[Purple]

Purple, having seen the movie myself, and being no fan of having messages preached at me.... if MMFR was blatant propaganda, then all movies are such. The claims of it being propaganda are incredibly overblown.

And I say that as someone who went in expecting to not enjoy it as greatly as those who recommended it because I loathe the post-apocalypse genre. Instead I got a well-directed, well-acted action movie where not even the classical "damsel-in-distress" characters were the dead-weight you'd expect them to be, but actively participated in the events.

Fair enough than. Thanks. I'll see if I can catch it after my exams are over.

[Civil War Man]

I did see it this weekend, and I could spot the "propaganda", but mostly because I had heard about the MRAs getting bent out of shape about it. And I can see why they would get bent out of shape over it, since the antagonists are all men and most of the protagonists are women. As GuppyShark said, though, it is at heart an anti-slavery movie. The only outright evil men are the ones who run the oppressive society. Everyone else in the society, man or woman, is a slave. The main difference is role (laborers are unisex, but the warriors are almost all men and the sex slaves are all women), and the fact that the women were the ones to rebel, while the only men who break free of the hyper-aggressive Alpha Male Warrior culture are either outsiders or guys who become disillusioned with their role.

I suppose you could say the movie is a feminist allegory in that regard, in that you have women rebelling against an oppressive patriarchal society, while their only male allies are men who eschew or otherwise fail to live up to what the society proclaims to be the ideal characteristics of masculinity.

[Steve]

Once the plot was "Max teams up with badass warrior chick to protect breeding sex-slaves from crazy priest-god-king in the post-apocalypse", it was by nature going to have mostly male antagonists and mostly female protagonists. I suppose making the Vuvalini all women was unnecessary, but they were there primarily to move Furiosa's story on and set up the big climax of the movie (and give the protagonists some reinforcements).

If there is any message, any "propaganda" at all... it is the message that people are not things. The antagonists treat people as things ("SPLENDID! THAT IS MY CHILD! THAT IS MY PROPERTY!") and the protagonists do not.

But that message... I'm not sure how it can be called "propaganda". It's supposed to be self-evident, at least for us, that human beings are not things, we are not supposed to be property. Declaring that message to be propaganda carries with it the implication, at least to me, that this message could be wrong, that it's just one group's views on the world. Which is why I'm more leery at the people calling it propaganda than the movie-makers themselves.

Again, frankly, if this movie is "blatant propaganda" of the kind Purple was expressing dislike over.... most movies are the same.

[Purple]

Declaring that message to be propaganda carries with it the implication, at least to me, that this message could be wrong, that it's just one group's views on the world. Which is why I'm more leery at the people calling it propaganda than the movie-makers themselves.

That's not what the term propaganda means though. Propaganda is material designed to push a message. That's all. The term does not imply if the message is or could be right or wrong.

Again, frankly, if this movie is "blatant propaganda" of the kind Purple was expressing dislike over.... most movies are the same.

There is a difference between a work that happens to have a message that comes to you if you think about it and a work where the work it self is just an excuse to push a message. And the distinction is usually quite obvious. Having not had time to see this movie I can't tell which side it falls on. But I think you can understand what I mean.

[Civil War Man]

Once the plot was "Max teams up with badass warrior chick to protect breeding sex-slaves from crazy priest-god-king in the post-apocalypse", it was by nature going to have mostly male antagonists and mostly female protagonists. I suppose making the Vuvalini all women was unnecessary, but they were there primarily to move Furiosa's story on and set up the big climax of the movie (and give the protagonists some reinforcements).

I wasn't criticizing the decision to do that, by the way. In fact, the badass biker gang comprised entirely of middle-aged and older women was one of my favorite parts of the movie. I like to think that my grandmother (on my mother's side) would have wanted to spend the twilight years of her life like that.

I was just pointing out that the movie could be viewed as a feminist allegory in that the rebels are predominantly women alongside men who were rejected for failing to conform with the patriarchy's expectations.

[Benny the Ball]

The talk about propaganda reminds me of the contents of this blog post:

You know, I’ve been thinking about Mad Max and all the inevitable “feminists are claiming this random action movie even though it has nothing to do with feminism!” protests from idiots. I just want to be like,

YES

YES THAT IS THE POINT

At no point did any douchebro tell Furiousa she couldn’t do something because she was a woman. She never had to lecture a neckbeard about basic feminist concepts. People accepted her as powerful. When she gave orders, people listened. No one ever told her she couldn’t do something because she was a woman or only had one arm. She was allowed to be badass through her actions, and people stepped back to accept that. Max let her use his shoulder as a rifle stand because he recognized she was a better shot, not because GRRRRL POWER. Her minions never questioned her orders when she claimed to be taking a different route, because she was in charge and that’s what you do when your superior issues a command.

She was a woman who was allowed to be a character first and foremost. She was allowed to have qualities and strength beyond “woman”. It’s not just a feminist movie because of its themes of male entitlement, sexual slavery, and environmental destruction. It’s a feminist movie because it gives women the rare chance to be people. They get personalities. They’re not relegated to the Smurfette role.

It’s not just about being a woman. It’s about being recognized for traits beyond being one’s gender.

You know, what FEMINISTS WANT.

We don’t want a movie to preach to its audience about equality. We want movies to show equality, to believe in equality, to practice INSTEAD of preach. We want it to recognize equality with a resounding “well duh”, as if it’s obvious. All of these movies where the lone female character must constantly prove to her dumbass male companions that she is just as capable as them feels stiff, unnatural, and insulting to the intelligence of the audience. In the end, she’s relegated to the role of “romantic interest”, because for all the talk of equality, her woman-ness remains more important than her character. And we’re back in the 1950′s, where a woman’s skills and strengths are put to the side in favor of her ability to get a man.

Furiosa (or any of the other women) was not a romantic interest. She was not a woman to prove to an audience that women are equal. Mad Max started on the premise that women were equal. That was at its starting line, not at its finish. Furiosa didn’t have to prove the audience anything. She just had to show it.

Women want to show their worth, not prove it. It’s time to let them.

If anything it's the exact opposite of feminist propaganda, and conveys feminist concepts to the audience far better because of it.

[Steve]

Declaring that message to be propaganda carries with it the implication, at least to me, that this message could be wrong, that it's just one group's views on the world. Which is why I'm more leery at the people calling it propaganda than the movie-makers themselves.

That's not what the term propaganda means though. Propaganda is material designed to push a message. That's all. The term does not imply if the message is or could be right or wrong.

A fair point. I just don't see this movie as "pushing a message", as the message is plainly self-evident. People are not things. The bad guys are the bad guys because they treat people as things. (The biker gang in the cliffs just come off as territorial and afraid of Immortan Joe's power).

Again, frankly, if this movie is "blatant propaganda" of the kind Purple was expressing dislike over.... most movies are the same.

There is a difference between a work that happens to have a message that comes to you if you think about it and a work where the work it self is just an excuse to push a message. And the distinction is usually quite obvious. Having not had time to see this movie I can't tell which side it falls on. But I think you can understand what I mean.

This movie is firmly in the former category if either of those, since I consider the message to be a self-evident one to the point you don't need to think about it, but which is not pushed at the audience either (frankly the movie is more concerned with having freaking awesome action sequences).

[Raw Shark]

Finally got the chance to see this last night, and I 100% agree that the complaints are bullshit. If gender wasn't involved this wouldn't be any different from any other (fucking awesome) buddy action movie with a dynamic between the main characters that develops from adversarial to bromance, except that there are also pretty female side-characters who can get into fights and fix trucks, and granny snipers and shit.

[Korgeta]

It was a decent movie, won't lie the drums and guitar during the chase was exhilarating, but I didn't think there was anything that was worth rewatching.

As for 'forced messages' this doesn't have any or is not in the same vein as other movies (oddly the environmental based movies that are the worst at this) like after earth or the avatar, it wasn't like in the film one character said 'wow you can do that?' 'Yes, I was taught from a very young age etc etc' with some stupid exposition that a girl fighting is to be seen as 'exceptional' Whenever the characters fought, they just did, out of survival and no ego stroking the other, they just got on with it.

The film does make a strong theme on that life is about freedom and not being property, it was shown visually very well.

I do have an issue withSpoiler

the immotal john ordering his baby to be saved, that scene was jarring and unsettling, his wife just got run over offscreen, why not leave it at that?

But really every film has a message to state such as Good night and Good luck or Wall-E etc and how well it turns out does depend on being tell more by showing without necessary having to tell it by narration.

[The Romulan Republic]

I finally saw this film and for the most part I liked it.

I don't particularly care for the initial scenes stylistically. They came off as typical grimdark anti-hero stuff with a feel that was almost like a generic horror movie feel. But there was better to come and I partially got past my discomfort with the grotesque absurdity of the villains' look (As a Firefly/Serenity fan, I basically thought "Okay, they're basically Reavers"). Fury Road had some typical flaws of Hollywood action films. The action was over the top and hard to follow sometimes. But it was often good despite that, in part thanks to shear intensity and a damn fine musical score. And that bit where Spoiler

they look up at the sky and see a satellite going overhead and wonder if there's still anyone using them like in the past was quite touching to me, particularly as an advocate of the space program.

As to the whole gender issue, you can certainly say that the film has feminist messages, but it also goes against the cliches of women being more kind and natural (even if it employs them at times too) and the film is pointedly not anti-male. You could see Spoiler

Furiosa's ultimate ascent to leadership as saying that women make better leaders

, but you'd have to stretch things- it fit the story and characterization well. In any case, any message was unobtrusive and inoffensive enough that it did not keep me from enjoying other aspects of the film. So the bottom line is that the MRAs made a mountain out of a molehill, but I thank them for giving this film publicity it would not otherwise have received.

And I would like to say that I particularly appreciate that Spoiler

Max and Furiosa did not end up as a couple or fucking at any point. I could probably count the action movies I've seen where the male and female leads do not end up being a couple on one hand

(Terminator two is the only one that comes to mind right now). I like it when films don't mindlessly follow a formula.