a what if

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2004-05-07 10:25pm

What if the Federation stayed out of the Klingon's war with the Cardassians? How would the Dominion War have turned out?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-05-07 10:36pm

The Federation did stay out of the war between the Klingons and Cardassians. That was one of the reasons why Gowron tore up the treaty of alliance: the Federation council condemned the attack. Oh, and because Sisko blatantly betrayed the Klingon attack to the Cardassians.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2004-05-07 10:43pm

No, the alliance fell apart because Sisko attacked Klingon ships and directly interfered in the Klingons war. My scenario is based on the Federation not interfering at all.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-05-07 10:49pm

Not only that, Sisko acted to rescue the D'topa Council —essentially the new Cardassian government, who were one of the primary targets of the Klingon invasion.

As for how things might have turned out... The Klingons were simply moving through Cardassian territory like shit through a goose. Once their flag was up over the rubble of Cardassia Prime's capitol, there certainly would have been no Dominion/Cardassian alliance afterward.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-05-07 10:52pm

They were capturing territory, but any remaining ships might have joined an alliance with the Dominion... not that it'd matter, because with the Klink-bons in charge of Cardie resources after the wormhole closes they'd all be screwed.

And isn't there a law against meaningless thread titles?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-07 10:57pm

Yeah, it forbids misleading, baited, or vague thread titles, punnished by extreme public admonishment and mockery.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-05-07 10:59pm

Aya wrote:No, the alliance fell apart because Sisko attacked Klingon ships and directly interfered in the Klingons war. My scenario is based on the Federation not interfering at all.

NO, the Alliance feel apart BEFORE then. You have watched "WotW" right? Sisko sold out the Klingons to the Cardassians, who had been enemies of DS9 and the Federation for the entirety of the show, and after the attack commenced the Federation COUNCIL condemned the attack. Then the Klingons rejected the alliance. Then Sisko went out to rescue Dukat (don't tell me what that's about). And if I recall Sisko only returned fire after being fired upon. One of his crew had to die before he would aggressively handle the Klingons. (I remember that because Pat Tallman - b5's Lyta - was the poor extra who died because Sisko didn't target the Klingon warship first).

Edited the bolded area as before it made me look like a moron - Aya reminded me of the sequence of events

The Federation didn't interfere - Prime Directive, remember? - So your scenario relies on the Federation either adopting a new ideology or honouring the treaty they signed in good faith. However, since the Klingons acted unilaterally there was no obligation upon the Federation to even bother invading Cardassian territory as Gowron never bothered to include them in his strategy sessions. Furthermore this lone fact speaks out against the relationship these two nations had: for a bunch of allies they acted remarkably hostile towards one another. Not that I blame the Federation for selling out the Klingons - I fucking hate them.

If the Federation did absolutely nothing - no sell out by Sisko, no condemnation - then the war with the Cardassians would have been swifter and surer, and the Klingon territory would likely have increased. They would also undoubtedly be hostile towards the Federation for isolating themselves from their "allies" (even though the Klingons never bothered to include them in the planning and preparation stage). This creates a situation where there is a hostile power in the Gamma Quadrant (which is largely content with staying on it's side of the GQ), and a hostile power in the Alpha Quadrant (which wants a return to the "glory" days of conquest and bloodshed). I think this would be disastrously bad for the Federation.

If the Federation supported the invasion by committing a battlegroup to the invasion (nevermind that pesky thing called the Prime Directive) not only would the alliance with the Klingons be secured but the Cardassians again would have been swiftly conquered and both nations would have sent a message to all that they're prepared for war. The Romulans would probably be shitting in their pants. They might end up becoming the "AQ sellouts" a la Dukat. In any case the Dominion would still be a threat.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2004-05-07 11:08pm

Actually, Sisko opened fire on the Klingons, after they opened fire on him. He was just trying to take out their engines at first, but after that crewmember died, he ordered Worf to handle it as he wanted.

Spanky, explain to me how the thread title is misleading or vague? It states pretty clearly that the thread is a what if and seeing how it's in PST, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's ST related.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-07 11:08pm

I thought that the Prime Directive only applied for pre-warp cultures...

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-05-07 11:23pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I thought that the Prime Directive only applied for pre-warp cultures...

It's specifically referred to on numerous occassions throughout all the shows that the Prime Directive is "non-interference" - no exceptions.

* Numerous occasions in TOS, where the PD applies or seems to only apply to pre-warp cultures. However, this was where the PD was defined as a "non-interference" protocol.

* TNG continues this tradition. Interference in a culture is allowed if subject world resides in Federation territory (Insurrection).

* DS9 had strong implications set by the Bajoran three-parter "The Circle" where Sisko was ordered to evacuate the station by Admiral Dumbarse because the Bajorans were going through an internal revolution (funded by the Cardassians, but then I did call the Admiral a Dumbarse), and he specifically states "The Prime Directive still applies." Bajor wasn't pre-warp.

[edit]Because I have an Aussie need to poke fun at myself, sharp eyes are advised to look for two different versions of the same word. Winner get's a cookie. Well, not really.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-07 11:26pm

Well then Admiral Dumbarse is a dumbass.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2004-05-07 11:26pm

Stofsk wrote:
Aya wrote:No, the alliance fell apart because Sisko attacked Klingon ships and directly interfered in the Klingons war. My scenario is based on the Federation not interfering at all.
NO, the Alliance feel apart BEFORE then. You have watched "WotW" right? Sisko sold out the Klingons to the Cardassians, who had been enemies of DS9 and the Federation for the entirety of the show, and after the attack commenced the Federation COUNCIL condemned the attack. Then the Klingons rejected the alliance. Then Sisko went out to rescue Dukat (don't tell me what that's about). And if I recall Sisko only returned fire after being fired upon. One of his crew had to die before he would aggressively handle the Klingons. (I remember that because Pat Tallman - b5's Lyta - was the poor extra who died because Sisko didn't target the Klingon warship first).

Edited the bolded area as before it made me look like a moron - Aya reminded me of the sequence of events

The Federation didn't interfere - Prime Directive, remember? - So your scenario relies on the Federation either adopting a new ideology or honouring the treaty they signed in good faith. However, since the Klingons acted unilaterally there was no obligation upon the Federation to even bother invading Cardassian territory as Gowron never bothered to include them in his strategy sessions. Furthermore this lone fact speaks out against the relationship these two nations had: for a bunch of allies they acted remarkably hostile towards one another. Not that I blame the Federation for selling out the Klingons - I fucking hate them.

If the Federation did absolutely nothing - no sell out by Sisko, no condemnation - then the war with the Cardassians would have been swifter and surer, and the Klingon territory would likely have increased. They would also undoubtedly be hostile towards the Federation for isolating themselves from their "allies" (even though the Klingons never bothered to include them in the planning and preparation stage). This creates a situation where there is a hostile power in the Gamma Quadrant (which is largely content with staying on it's side of the GQ), and a hostile power in the Alpha Quadrant (which wants a return to the "glory" days of conquest and bloodshed). I think this would be disastrously bad for the Federation.

If the Federation supported the invasion by committing a battlegroup to the invasion (nevermind that pesky thing called the Prime Directive) not only would the alliance with the Klingons be secured but the Cardassians again would have been swiftly conquered and both nations would have sent a message to all that they're prepared for war. The Romulans would probably be shitting in their pants. They might end up becoming the "AQ sellouts" a la Dukat. In any case the Dominion would still be a threat.

Didn't your momma ever tell you it's not nice to correct me?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-07 11:28pm

Aya wrote:Spanky, explain to me how the thread title is misleading or vague? It states pretty clearly that the thread is a what if and seeing how it's in PST, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's ST related.

Because all it fucking says is "what if," you retard. It doesn't mention the Federation, the Cardassians, the Klingons, the Klingon/Carassian War, or the Dominion War.

Do you get it now, or do I have to use puppets?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-07 11:32pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Aya wrote:Spanky, explain to me how the thread title is misleading or vague? It states pretty clearly that the thread is a what if and seeing how it's in PST, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's ST related.
Because all it fucking says is "what if," you retard. Do you get it now, or do I have to use puppets?

And thank you for both you and Stark deciding somehow you're mods.

He is asking for a solution to his what if question.

Should we have everyone who use title in the terminology of

choice of bodyguard

terroists

regarded as dumbasses as well?

And whole slew of others that are just simple statements included into our new ideal titling.

Mike's whole point was to prevent titles that are Today I went...

Not prevent a title in which is a simple statement, which upon reading the topic fulfills the title's thread.

So end this hijack before I shove it into the HoS.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2004-05-07 11:33pm

I think people could make the logical assumption that it would involve any of those groups.

Oh and nice insults, I'm so hurt. Boohoo, I'm gonna run and cry now.