Zero Dark Thirty

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Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Havok »

I don't give a shit about the movie itself but that fact that the movie exists.

Why is it that I feel... I don't know, awkward about this movie being made when I have enjoyed many war movies based on Vietnam, WWII, WWI and even shows like Generation Kill which are based on a war with Irag that I absolutely objected to.

I am trying to flesh this out in my head and with Jenn and I can't quite articulate my reasoning for wincing when I see the commercials for this movie.

Anyone want to throw their Two Cents at me or have similar feelings?

Actually... have I ever seen a WWI movie? :?:
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Zwinmar »

Maybe because its not only in living memory but that the events took place not long ago. Perhaps it is the willful glorification of an assassination?
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

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Zwinmar wrote:Maybe because its not only in living memory but that the events took place not long ago. Perhaps it is the willful glorification of an assassination?
There are interpretations of the ending that suggest the killing still leaves the protagonist empty inside, even after a decade long hunt. That's not my interpretation, mind you, but you know, art is like that.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Havok »

Stark wrote:Probably because its so transparent.
Elaborate. The only thing I know about it is the basic premise so this doesn't follow.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Havok »

JLTucker wrote:
Zwinmar wrote:Maybe because its not only in living memory but that the events took place not long ago. Perhaps it is the willful glorification of an assassination?
There are interpretations of the ending that suggest the killing still leaves the protagonist empty inside, even after a decade long hunt. That's not my interpretation, mind you, but you know, art is like that.
Not having seen it, or more importantly having lived it, but why wouldn't they feel that way? They didn't change anything, solve any problem and were basically just a military hit squad. Not that I don't see the need for that to a point.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Stark »

Havok wrote:
Stark wrote:Probably because its so transparent.
Elaborate. The only thing I know about it is the basic premise so this doesn't follow.
Because you don't exist in a vacuum and you are already thinking 'did they really make a film to justify all the horrible shit my country has done where the emotional climax is shooting an old man in a hole'.

Even if you didn't know that the military itself has said 'whoa, that's a really inaccurate way of showing how we found Bin Laden and the utility of torture', you know what the aim of the film is.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Block »

Stark wrote:
Havok wrote:
Stark wrote:Probably because its so transparent.
Elaborate. The only thing I know about it is the basic premise so this doesn't follow.
Because you don't exist in a vacuum and you are already thinking 'did they really make a film to justify all the horrible shit my country has done where the emotional climax is shooting an old man in a hole'.

Even if you didn't know that the military itself has said 'whoa, that's a really inaccurate way of showing how we found Bin Laden and the utility of torture', you know what the aim of the film is.
I'm just going to point out that most of the people crying about how this film tried to validate torture had never seen the film and once they did, seemed to shut up. I haven't seen anyone who's actually seen the movie say that it had the aim you're seeming to give it.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Stark »

That isn't actually what I said. I think it's pretty remarkable that an obvious piece of propaganda is so obvious that even the military have said 'whoa, that isn't factually accurate'. It doesn't have to be 'about' justifying torture; it can just be lying about the utility of torture in a way used by the government for years BY ACCIDENT. That doesn't change how hilarious it is.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

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It only validates torture in the sense that it shows America did it. It doesn't connect torture with the capture of Bin laden, like that reactionary fool Glenn Greenwald claimed, prior to seeing it, and fell victim to confirmation bias after he did. The film uses the protagonist as a metaphor for America's eventual numbness to it. I will venture into spoiler territory, so read at your own risk.
Spoiler
The protagonist, Maya, is seen as being detested by torture in the beginning of the film. She continually has a look of disgust on her face when she sees a coworker waterboard, starve, and put a prisoner in a box. She even feels physically ill when she has it done to someone. The metaphor for America comes when she no longer cares what's being done to the prisoners as long as she can get information and kill a man who orchestrated the attacks on 9/11. I

In a very telling scene, Maya and another character, Jessica,are in a room discussing their plans. The televsiion shows Obama discussing America's reputation for torture and when he denounces and says we have to stop, jessica has a look of compelte disapproval with the president's words.

In no way does the movie imply "we tortured this guy and we found Bin Laden because of it." "Human error" led to the discovery of that compound, as the film purports, not only in dialogue, but a title card of the chapter this takes place in.

The movie is not good, but not bad either. It's middle of the road, to be honest. The director says the movie tells the full story of capturing Bin Laden, but we only get paraphrases. The invasion of Iraq, the thousands of deaths, are glossed over and not really mentioned outside of "Abu Ghraib fucked us" when they try and get more resources to capture Bin Laden.

This is not a propaganda piece. It's instead a faux-procedural masked as something intelligent when it's anything but. There are some fantastic moments, like the metaphor I mentioned above, but overall it empty and just... there. It will not make you ponder about the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq, America's lust for revenge, or even the killing of Bin Laden. You'll finish it and say, "uh... we already know this is how America feels. Thanks for the 2.5 hours?"
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Stark »

Goddamn, there is totally a word for what it does and I can't remember it.

Regardless, that doesn't change the film. Arguably, by being so bald it will obviously be viewed a certain way by a population inculated and prepped by the whole decade. It would have been pretty easy to say something if that's what they wanted to do.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

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Stark wrote:Regardless, that doesn't change the film. Arguably, by being so bald it will obviously be viewed a certain way by a population inculated and prepped by the whole decade. It would have been pretty easy to say something if that's what they wanted to do.
See, it almost wants to say something. In fact, it breaches that area in the final moments.
Spoiler
After the raid on the compound, the charter Hakim is the only one to look at the plethora of dead bodies and feel something. He looks shocked and appalled at the dead men and women and the crying children. What comes before it consists of "we need to stop these next attacks" while every attack in it kills Americans and "we need to find and stop Bin laden." It seemed very, very odd that it would look at the destruction from the viewpoint of the victims at the very end. It kind of makes you sympathetic to them, even though they are shown to be horrible people.
I think one of my problems stems from the fact that I went into it knowing that the Hurt Locker, the director's previous movie, was staunchly anti-war and shows what it does to people (from an American perspective). I hoped that would come back again in Zero Dark Thirty with perhaps a little more to say about the last decade outside of snippets. I expected too much and that's my fault.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

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For me the it just comes across as another America Fuck Yeah movie, I don't see it as this intense thriller the trailers try to portray. The trailers make it sound like they have to find him or something bad will happen when we know he was reclusive and a paper tiger at that point. The portrayal of the SEAL guys being loud mouth gung ho hunk types doesn't help either. Where every instance you see SEAL guys in real documentaries they are more calm soft spoken intelligent guys with knowledge in multiple areas not just how to lift weights, clean a gun and grow beards. Never saw Hurt Locker so no opinion on the director, other than constant praise on award shows for positive female roles, if that's true or just pandering.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Flagg »

I enjoyed it, especially after the torture shit. That said, the torture shit bothered me. They can try and say it doesn't say torture led to the information that led to his killing, but the very fact that it's featured so explicitely and in large quantities in a movie about killing Bin Laden...
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Thanas »

I find myself agreeing with this and disagreeing with Tucker for the same reasons the author did:
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At the same time that the European Court of Human Rights has issued a historic ruling condemning the C.I.A.’s treatment of a terror suspect during the Bush years as “torture,” a Hollywood movie about the agency’s hunt for Osama bin Laden, “Zero Dark Thirty”—whose creators say that they didn’t want to “judge” the interrogation program—appears headed for Oscar nominations. Can torture really be turned into morally neutral entertainment?

“Zero Dark Thirty,” which opens across the country next month, is a pulse-quickening film that spends its first half hour or so depicting a fictionalized version of the Bush Administration’s secret U.S. interrogation program. In reality, the C.I.A.’s program of calibrated cruelty was deemed so illegal, and so immoral, that the director of the F.B.I. withdrew his personnel rather than have them collaborate with it, and the top lawyer at the Pentagon laid his career on the line in an effort to stop a version of the program from spreading to the armed forces. The C.I.A.’s actions convulsed the national-security community, leading to a crisis of conscience inside the top ranks of the U.S. government. The debate echoed the moral seriousness of the political dilemma once posed by slavery, a subject that is brilliantly evoked in Steven Spielberg’s new film, “Lincoln”; by contrast, the director of “Zero Dark Thirty,” Kathryn Bigelow, milks the U.S. torture program for drama while sidestepping the political and ethical debate that it provoked. In her hands, the hunt for bin Laden is essentially a police procedural, devoid of moral context. If she were making a film about slavery in antebellum America, it seems, the story would focus on whether the cotton crops were successful.

After some critics called Bigelow a torture apologist, she defended the fairness and historical accuracy of her movie. “The film doesn’t have an agenda, and it doesn’t judge. I wanted a boots-on-the-ground experience,” she told my New Yorker colleague Dexter Filkins, who interviewed her for a Talk of the Town piece. At a Los Angeles press junket, the film’s screenwriter, Mark Boal, complained that critics were “mischaracterizing” the torture sequences: “I understand that those scenes are graphic and unsparing and unsentimental. But I think that what the film does over the course of two hours is show the complexity of the debate.” His point was that because the film shows multiple approaches to intelligence gathering, of which torture is only one tactic, and because the torture isn’t shown as always producing correct or instant leads, it offers a nuanced answer to the question of whether torture works.

But whether torture “worked” was far from the most important question about its use. I’ve seen the film and, as much as I admired Bigelow’s Oscar-winning picture “The Hurt Locker,” I think that this time, by ignoring the full weight of the dark history of torture, her work falls disturbingly short. To begin with, despite Boal’s contentions, “Zero Dark Thirty” does not capture the complexity of the debate about America’s brutal detention program. It doesn’t include a single scene in which torture is questioned, even though the Bush years were racked by internal strife over just that issue—again, not just among human-rights and civil-liberties lawyers, but inside the F.B.I., the military, the Justice Department, and the C.I.A. itself, which eventually abandoned waterboarding because it feared, correctly, that the act constituted a war crime. None of this ethical drama seems to interest Bigelow.

To establish a baseline of moral awareness, she shows her heroine—a C.I.A. counterterrorism officer called Maya, played by Jessica Chastain—delicately wincing as she hands the more muscled interrogators a pitcher of water with which to waterboard a detainee. Maya is also shown standing mutely by when the detainee is strung up by ropes, stripped naked, and forced to crawl in a dog collar. In reality, when the C.I.A. first subjected a detainee to incarceration in a coffin-size “confinement box,” as is shown in the movie, an F.B.I. agent present at the scene threw a fit, warned the C.I.A. contractor proposing the plan that it was illegal, counterproductive, and reprehensible. The fight went all the way to the top of the Bush Administration. Bigelow airbrushes out this showdown, as she does virtually the entire debate during the Bush years about the treatment of detainees.


The lone anti-torture voice shown in the film is a split-second news clip of President Barack Obama, taken from a “60 Minutes” interview, in which he condemns torture. It flashes on a television screen that’s in the background of a scene set in Pakistan; the movie’s terrorist-hunters, who are holding a meeting, barely look up, letting Obama’s pronouncement pass without comment. “By this point in the film,” as the CNN national-security analyst Peter Bergen wrote recently, “the audience has already seen that the C.I.A. has employed coercive interrogation techniques on an al Qaeda detainee that produced a key lead in the hunt for bin Laden. In the film, Obama’s opposition to torture comes off as wrongheaded and prissy.”


Bigelow has portrayed herself as a reluctant truth-teller. She recently described the film’s torture scenes as “difficult to shoot.” She said, “I wish it was not part of our history. But it was.”

Yet what is so unsettling about “Zero Dark Thirty” is not that it tells this difficult history but, rather, that it distorts it. In addition to excising the moral debate that raged over the interrogation program during the Bush years, the film also seems to accept almost without question that the C.I.A.’s “enhanced interrogation techniques” played a key role in enabling the agency to identify the courier who unwittingly led them to bin Laden. But this claim has been debunked, repeatedly, by reliable sources with access to the facts. As the Washington Post’s Greg Sargent first reported, shortly after bin Laden was killed, Leon Panetta, then the director of the C.I.A., sent a letter to Arizona Senator John McCain, clearly stating that “we first learned about ‘the facilitator / courier’s nom de guerre’ from a detainee not in the C.I.A.’s custody.” Panetta wrote that “no detainee in C.I.A. custody revealed the facilitator / courier’s full true name or specific whereabouts.”

The Senators Dianne Feinstein, a California Democrat and the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Carl Levin, a Michigan Democrat and the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, have undermined the film’s version of events further still. “The original lead information had no connection to C.I.A. detainees,” they wrote in their own letter, revealed by the Post last year. Feinstein and Levin noted that a third detainee in C.I.A. custody did provide information on the courier, but, importantly, they stressed that “he did so the day before he was interrogated by the C.I.A. using their coercive interrogation techniques.” In other words, contrary to the plotline of “Zero Dark Thirty,” and contrary to self-serving accounts of C.I.A. officers implicated in the interrogation program, senators with access to the record say that torture did not produce the leads that led to finding and killing bin Laden.

Top senators on the Senate Intelligence Committee and the Senate Armed Services Committee have amplified that position in additional interviews this week. Speaking with the Huffington Post, Feinstein said of the movie’s narrative, “Based on what I know, I don’t believe it is true.” Republicans, too, criticized the movie’s plot. “It’s wrong. It’s wrong. I know for a fact, not because of this report—my own knowledge—that waterboarding, torture, does not lead to reliable information … in any case—not this specific case—in any case,” said John McCain, the top Republican on the Armed Services Committee, who was himself tortured during the Vietnam War. The Huffington Post also quoted South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham, another Republican member of the Armed Services Committee, saying, “I would argue that it’s not waterboarding that led to bin Laden’s demise. It was a lot of good intelligence-gathering from the Obama and Bush administrations, continuity of effort, holding people at Gitmo, putting the puzzle together over a long period of time—not torture.”

As Scott Shane wrote in the Times on Thursday, so little is publicly known about the C.I.A.’s erstwhile interrogation program that it is nearly impossible for outsiders to assess the facts with total confidence. But for the past three years, Democratic staffers at the Senate Intelligence Committee have been compiling six thousand pages of records related to the secret program, and in doing so they have found little to celebrate. It is hard to understand, then, why the creators of “Zero Dark Thirty” so confidently credit the program.

In addition to providing false advertising for waterboarding, “Zero Dark Thirty” endorses torture in several other subtle ways. At one point, the film’s chief C.I.A. interrogator claims, without being challenged, that “everyone breaks in the end,” adding, “it’s biology.” Maybe that’s what they think in Hollywood, but experts on the history of torture disagree.
Indeed, many prisoners have been tortured to death without ever revealing secrets, while many others—including some of those who were brutalized during the Bush years—have fabricated disinformation while being tortured. Some of the disinformation provided under duress during those years, in fact, helped to lead the U.S. into the war in Iraq under false premises.

At another point in the film, an elderly detainee explains that he wants to coöperate with the U.S. because he “doesn’t want to be tortured again.” The clear implication is that brutalization brings breakthroughs. Other ways of getting intelligence, such as bribing sources with expensive race cars, are shown to work, too. But while those scenes last only a few minutes, the torture scenes seem to go on and on.


The filmmakers subtly put their thumb on the pro-torture scale, as Emily Bazelon put it, in another scene, too. A C.I.A. officer complains that there is no way for him to corroborate a lead on bin Laden’s whereabouts now that the detainees in Guantánamo all have lawyers. The suggestion is that if they are given due process rather than black eyes, there will be no way to get the necessary evidence. This is a canard, given that virtually all suspects in the American criminal-justice system have lawyers, yet their cases proceed smoothly and fairly every day.


Bigelow has stressed that she had “no agenda” when she made “Zero Dark Thirty.” Unsurprisingly, though, those who have defended the brutalization of detainees have already begun embracing the film as evidence that they are right. Joe Scarborough, the conservative host of MSNBC’s show “Morning Joe,” said recently that the film’s narrative, “whether you find it repugnant or not,” shows that the C.I.A. program was effective and “led to the couriers, that led, eventually, years later, to the killing of Osama bin Laden.” My guess is that this is just the beginning, and that by the time millions of Americans have seen this movie, they will believe that, as Frank Bruni put it in a recent Times column, “No waterboarding, no bin Laden.”

Perhaps it’s unfair to expect the entertainment industry to convey history accurately. Clearly, the creators of “Zero Dark Thirty” are storytellers who really know how to make a thriller. And it’s true that there are no rules when it comes to fiction. As Boal, the screenwriter, has protested in recent interviews, “It’s a movie, not a documentary.” But in the very first minutes of “Zero Dark Thirty,” before its narrative begins to unspool, the audience is told that the story it is about to see is “based on first-hand accounts of actual events.” If there is an expectation of accuracy, it is set up by the filmmakers themselves. It seems they want it both ways: they want the thrill that comes from revealing what happened behind the scenes as history was being made and the creative license of fiction, which frees them from the responsibility to stick to the truth.

Knowing the real facts—the ones that led the European Court of Human Rights to condemn America for torture this week—I had trouble enjoying the movie. I’ve interviewed Khaled El-Masri, the German citizen whose suit the E.C.H.R. adjudicated. He turned out to be a case of mistaken identity, an innocent car salesman whom the C.I.A. kidnapped and held in a black-site prison for four months, and who was “severely beaten, sodomized, shackled, and hooded.” What Masri lived through was so harrowing that, when I had a cup of coffee with him, a few years ago, he couldn’t describe it to me without crying. Maybe I care too much about all of this to enjoy it with popcorn. But maybe the creators of “Zero Dark Thirty” should care a little bit more.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by JLTucker »

Thanas, have you seen it? If so, how about an original thought instead of a link to a blog?

Edit: I was rude. Would you mind explaining in your own words what you object to in my critique of this movie? It would be far more efficient in the realm of discussion than to simply post a link to a blog.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Stark »

I wonder if anyone who isn't American would have any interest in seeing it. :lol: Those people don't need their niggling doubts about the last decade assuaged and fuck, what's the goddamn word.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Havok »

What word?!
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Stark »

I've just got a mental blank. There's a really appropriate term for how I see this movie and I literally cannot find it in my brain anymore.

Once I forgot the word 'pretext' for four years. I knew what it was, I just couldn't remember the word. :V
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Losonti Tokash »

Everyone I know that's seen it has suddenly expressed doubt about whether the WAR ON TERROR was worth all this human suffering, though.:V
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Losonti Tokash »

I would say barely anyone realizes how brutal "enhanced interrogation" is and it sounds like the movie forces you to watch a pretty explicit demonstration. And apparently the wild celebrations directly against the aftermath of the assassination made my mother feel sick to her stomach.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

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Losonti Tokash wrote:I would say barely anyone realizes how brutal "enhanced interrogation" is and it sounds like the movie forces you to watch a pretty explicit demonstration. And apparently the wild celebrations directly against the aftermath of the assassination made my mother feel sick to her stomach.
Yeah. The interrogation scenes are quite explicit and disgust you. The water boarding scene made me squirm. The end is a display of American bloodlust, naturally.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Stark »

Losonti Tokash wrote:I would say barely anyone realizes how brutal "enhanced interrogation" is
Maybe the movie can help those so divorced from reality. Its pretty funny that it plays into something Hav said in another thread; that people are comfortable with sanitised violence (or violence with a clean and formal name, or violence against people you're comfortable not caring about) but uncomfortable with actually facing the inevitable reality of it.

When people said torture in 2002 I knew exactly what it was.
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Re: Zero Dark Thirty

Post by Losonti Tokash »

People are less informed than they think they are, film at 11 :p
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