Orion Drives

[TsarAD]

Hello,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I've been reading some of the sci fi stories you guys put up in the user fiction section, and I've got to say, this board has created a real love in me for some real mil-wank, tech-wank original stories. Something that has really captivated me are the use of Orion drives, especially in a military context (like Larry Niven's Footfall).

I was originally going to post this in the science board, but this sort of became a two part question I think would be more appropriate for off topic.

How feasible are Orion drives in real life, really?

And can anyone tell me about some more stories, published sci-fi or fanfic stuff, where they feature prominently?

Thank you very much!

[Hawkwings]

Welcome to the forums.

Behold, Atomic Rocket to the rescue!

No idea about fiction, sorry.

[Skgoa]

How feasible are Orion drives in real life, really?

They have untractable problems, but are feasible if we are talking about using them only in vacuum. There is also absolutely NO chance they are going to be used in real life, since the idea is quite riddiculous.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Welcome to the forums.

Behold, Atomic Rocket to the rescue!

No idea about fiction, sorry.

Thanks Hawkwings, that site is going to come in very handy for an essay I've got coming up.

On the subject of Orion drives, they've been wanked up a lot. Although according to that sight Hawkwings posted, NASA is re-examining them, just without the words "Nuclear" or "bomb" anyway in the project title.

EDIT: Although, they have some fairly awesome satats. Such as a 10,000 tonne Advanced Orion spacecraft having enough delta-v to carry a 1,300 tonne payload to Enceladus and back

Which, for those not versed in astronomy, is an inner moon of Saturn. Or in even simpler terms, a bloody long way away.

[Serafina]

Do NOT underestimate or ignore the political problem. To build an Orion drive, you would need dozens or hundreds (depending on how big you build it) of nuclear devices. That is a very capable weapon arsenal capable of killing millions. Not something that will be welcomed by politicians, domestic or foreign.
Even if you can overcome that, a Orion drive is still a Very Bad Thing (tm) to use in an atmosphere, since you would have to deal with a lot of fallout. For that reason alone Orion drives will almost certainly never be used as launch vehicles. Now once you are in space, you can ignore that problem - so if anything, orion drives will be used to get to other planets in our solar system.

[Simon_Jester]

The big problem with Orion, as Serafina says, is that whoever controls the ship must necessarily have a substantial nuclear arsenal perched in orbit to make the ship move. That arsenal, and the capability to build more of the bombs, makes them a serious threat to any place in the world.

No nation would stand for a rival building such an arsenal under those circumstances- for what amounts to a giant orbiting gun platform loaded down with thousands of kilotons' worth of nuclear bombs, which could potentially attack them at any time.

Realistically, I doubt Orion drives would ever see use in the absence of a world government with a monopoly on nuclear weapons. The idea of such a thing happening had some supporters immediately after World War II, but has been obviously not in the cards since about 1949. If it ever happens in the future, it will be for very strange reasons.

[Serafina]

Well, if we had technology that makes nuclear weapons infeasible for strategic use, we might see Orion drives being used, after the security of that system has been established for a few generations and their old threat is forgotten.
But take note that defense against strategic missiles would NOT suffice for this - if you have nuclear bombs in orbit, you can just put them in a sturdy re-entry vehicle and let gravity do the rest, and such an attack would be much harder to stop.
So basically that solution would have to resort to very soft sci-fi to make it feasible. Which kinda defeats the purpose of an Orion drive as a hard sci-fi propulsion.

One-World governments are not really better either, at least not if you want to have them anywhere near in the future. I think if you want to have space exploration/colonization using Orion drives, you are best off writing a piece of alternate history where the USA managed to be the only superpower with nuclear weapons. Stuarts "The Big One"-setting is such a verse - if you already have nuclear bombers patrolling space, no one will give a damn if you add a few more bombs to that arsenal, especially not if they can't do anything against it anyway.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That sounds like an interesting universe. Could you post a link to the stories please Serafina?

[Serafina]

That sounds like an interesting universe. Could you post a link to the stories please Serafina?

No links to the story, because the story has been published as a number of books. You can buy them from Amazon and possibly some other sites as well. You'd also support the writer of "The Salvation War". I think there is or was a wiki about it somewhere, but i didn't find it.

However, those books are NOT light literature. I only read "The Big One". It's the most haunting, terrible and realistic description of the results of nuclear warfare i've ever read or seen or heard.

The basic plot and setup:
Britain surrenders to Nazi Germany in 1940 due to a government coup. Japan never attacked Pearl Harbor for a variety of reasons. Nazi Germany is far more successful in Russia than it was in real life, they are now fighting somewhere close to the Ural-mountains against a Russia that has renounced communism and focuses solely on winning the war. The United States are at war with Germany, but D-Day never happened because Britain is under german control. However, they are planning "The Big One" - a giant strike with nuclear bombs against every major german city. Oh, and it's Summer 1947. Spoiler

Every german city is wiped from the map. 20 million dead immedeately, 40 million total, out of a population of about 65 million. The USA go on to rule the world via the threat of nuclear annihilation - it has become the first rather than the last resort. Do not do what the USA wants, your country will die.

Again, it's not light literature. I highly recommend it if you can agree with the following:
I have to face the full horrors of history in order to truly understand it and to avoid the atrocities made in the past. That is why i have visited Nazi concentration camps, Stasi political prisons and have spoken to war veterans and victims. It makes me sick and shakes my soul, but it's the best way to realize that such things are never to be glorified and never to be excused.
The same applies to The Big One in regards to nuclear warfare - which thankfully never happened like this.

So if you agree with this, it is a very good book. If you want to be entertained, it is NOT a good book - unless you are a heartless bastard and miss the entire point of the book.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Fascinating. I had not realised Stuart was a published author. Thanks.

[Mr. Coffee]

Fascinating. I had not realised Stuart was a published author. Thanks.

Well, vanity published, but yeah. Just be prepared for a LOT of spelling and grammar errors, some of which will completely jar you out of enjoying the story.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I saw that in the Amazon reviews. How exactly did they get missed?

[Mr. Coffee]

I saw that in the Amazon reviews. How exactly did they get missed?

First story or so in the series Stuart didn't have anyone doing proof reading. In fact, unless Chewie or a couple of other do it for him he still doesn't proof read his shit worth a damn. Take a look at the Armageddon stories in Fiction and you can actually tell if Stuart wrote a chapter or not just by the grammar errors.

[Pelranius]

Fascinating. I had not realised Stuart was a published author. Thanks.

Well, vanity published, but yeah. Just be prepared for a LOT of spelling and grammar errors, some of which will completely jar you out of enjoying the story.

The proof edited copy for the first printing of The Big One was lost by the publishers or something.

[Mr. Coffee]

I guess they must've lost the proof read copies for TGG and the rest of the published stories to then...

[Pelranius]

I'll have to check in on that (Lion Resurgent seems to be fairly typo free but since I've spent so much time dealing with ESL speakers on boards other than SDN and HPCA that I have pretty low standards).

Incidentally, I believe that must of TBO USA's space launch capability comes from single stage vehicles. Mr. Slade mentioned on another thread (here on SDN concerning Orion Drives) that they weren't a very cost effective solution for frequent space launches.

[Dalton]

I recommend Neal Stephenson's Anathem, which features a vessel that utilizes such propulsion. Specifically, it talks about how such a ship would move, what the ship may be built like, how it would refuel, etc.

[Darth Tedious]

How far away would it need to operate to not cause any EMPs or other such problems (like wiping out satellite networks)? I realise this is a fairly obvious issue, but I'm interested in the actual numbers, if anyone can figure them...

[Sarevok]

Outside the ionosphere. Anything above 1000 kilometer altitude should be safe to operate.

[TsarAD]

Weren't the initial designs to use a .03 Kt bomb? I think the EMP would be negligible on a bomb like that.

[Skgoa]

You might still fry optical sensors or other delicate equipment.

[Sithking Zero]

So, in short, Orion Drive: falls into the "Awesome, But Impractical," setting in a whole bunch of cases. The best place to use an Orion Drive, given the circumstances, would probably be to get to other planets once already out of the atmosphere. That says nothing about "Fuel Consumption," or how the radiation would affect those planets, but...

Oh, and if you want a Sci-Fi series that uses an Orion Drive, check out the Troy Rising series, by John Ringo. There is a definite right-winged slant to the books, so watch out for that, and it's pretty heavy on the worldbuilding. Also, it focuses on minor scenes a little too much in later parts of the books, but in all they're pretty cool. The series is about how this alien race places a gigantic hyperspace gate into the solar system. It's the only true FTL tech available. The first non-gatebuilder alien race is friendly, but the next one... not so much. It's about one man's attempt to get Earth into the big leagues, militarily, culturally, and galacticly. I'd check it out.

[StrikaAmaru]

[...] Oh, and if you want a Sci-Fi series that uses an Orion Drive, check out the Troy Rising series, by John Ringo. [...]

Having recently finished the trilogy, I'd strongly support Sithking Zero's suggestion, with a caveat: book 3, "The Hot Gates", most definitely does not exist.

Books 1 and 2 have great storylines, strong AI that is used neither in a retarded manner, nor as a solve-all, a decent replicator with realistic limitations (aka a fabber; if you know anything about the webcomic Schlock Mercenary, these are pretty much copied from it), plausible use of a multiple-terrawatt solar-powered laser (though I have very big doubts glass would clarify itself as presented; I think if you try to do what Vernon did, you just end up with a piece of rock), and some reasonably envisioned glass ceilings humanity has to overcome to be a true spacefaring/galactic civilization. Oh, yeah, and TWO Orion drives attached to a 9.5 Km spacestation, in book 2. Orion drives using 35 Mt every .1 of a second, to be exact.

Book 3 is a long rant against South-Americans, completely devoid of any geeky turn-ons. Except maybe the ~20 pages about one old quirky fabber/AI combo, named Granadica, which was introduced way back in book 1, and was vital throughout the series.

And, I'd also add, I deeply dislike the author's style. Not just because of the soapboxes he climbs on, and forgets to descend from, but the general feel of his writing; there's something infuriatingly amateurish and annoying about it. I think I once called John Ringo a great reason to read fanfiction, exactly because of this: the good fanfics out there are far more palatable than his books.

[Sithking Zero]

[...] Oh, and if you want a Sci-Fi series that uses an Orion Drive, check out the Troy Rising series, by John Ringo. [...]

Having recently finished the trilogy, I'd strongly support Sithking Zero's suggestion, with a caveat: book 3, "The Hot Gates", most definitely does not exist.

Books 1 and 2 have great storylines, strong AI that is used neither in a retarded manner, nor as a solve-all, a decent replicator with realistic limitations (aka a fabber; if you know anything about the webcomic Schlock Mercenary, these are pretty much copied from it), plausible use of a multiple-terrawatt solar-powered laser (though I have very big doubts glass would clarify itself as presented; I think if you try to do what Vernon did, you just end up with a piece of rock), and some reasonably envisioned glass ceilings humanity has to overcome to be a true spacefaring/galactic civilization. Oh, yeah, and TWO Orion drives attached to a 9.5 Km spacestation, in book 2. Orion drives using 35 Mt every .1 of a second, to be exact.

Book 3 is a long rant against South-Americans, completely devoid of any geeky turn-ons. Except maybe the ~20 pages about one old quirky fabber/AI combo, named Granadica, which was introduced way back in book 1, and was vital throughout the series.

And, I'd also add, I deeply dislike the author's style. Not just because of the soapboxes he climbs on, and forgets to descend from, but the general feel of his writing; there's something infuriatingly amateurish and annoying about it. I think I once called John Ringo a great reason to read fanfiction, exactly because of this: the good fanfics out there are far more palatable than his books.

Ohmigod THANK YOU. FINALLY someone who knows what I want to say about him. I knew this, but couldn't put words to it. I only read the first nine chapters on the Baen website of book 3, but that was pretty much exactly it. When he does go into sci-fi, he does a good job, but he more often than not goes into rants about political affiliations and how his opinions are better than anyone else'. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the Bolo series, but "Road to Damascus," seemed more of a political rant against "City Folk," than a Bolo story.

Ahem.

But that is a topic of later discussion. Orion drives I could see working well for moving in a straight line, but how would you turn a ship powered by an Orion Drive? Would you just have conventional rocket engines strapped to various portions of the ship, or would you have a nuke cannon that allows you to precisely detonate nukes behind you that would allow you to redirect your starship?

Also, braking. How would one brake using an Orion Drive?

[Shroom Man 777]

You know what would be awesome? If your Orion ship was boosted into the upper atmosphere by a Project Pluto-type nuclear ramjet.