Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

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Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Big Orange »

OK, Gary Brecher (aka the War Nerd) has a gigantic axe the width of Texas to grind with the US Navy's Nimitz-class aircraft carriers, rambling on and on how they're outdated floating coffins, blah, blah, blah. Well he has gone done a protracted article on how aircraft carriers have become as redundant as battleships in WWII, which is not a bad opinion in of itself, considering how the march of technology has a tendency of rendering war winning weaponry into expensive paper weights. Here is the opening excerpt to Brecher's essay:
The War Nerd: This Is How the Carriers Will Die (Updated Version)
By Gary Brecher

I’ve been saying for a long time that aircraft carriers are just history’s most expensive floating targets, and that they were doomed.

But now I can tell you exactly how they’re going to die. I’ve just read one of the most shocking stories in years. It comes from the US Naval Institute, not exactly an alarmist or anti-Navy source. And what it says is that the US carrier group is scrap metal.

The Chinese military has developed a ballistic missile, Dong Feng 21, specifically designed to kill US aircraft carriers: “Because the missile employs a complex guidance system, low radar signature and a maneuverability that makes its flight path unpredictable, the odds that it can evade tracking systems to reach its target are increased. It is estimated that the missile can travel at mach 10 and reach its maximum range of 2000km in less than 12 minutes.” That’s the US Naval Institute talking, remember. They’re understating the case when they say that, with speed, satellite guidance and maneuverability like that, “the odds that it can evade tracking systems to reach its target are increased.”

You know why that’s an understatement? Because of a short little sentence I found farther on in the article—and before you read that sentence, I want all you trusting Pentagon groupies to promise me that you’ll think hard about what it implies. Here’s the sentence: “Ships currently have no defense against a ballistic missile attack.”

That’s right: no defense at all. The truth is that they have very feeble defenses against any attack with anything more modern than cannon. I’ve argued before no carrier group would survive a saturation attack by huge numbers of low-value attackers, whether they’re Persians in Cessnas and cigar boats or mass-produced Chinese cruise missiles. But at least you could look at the missile tubes and Phalanx gatlings and pretend that you were safe. But there is no defense, none at all, against something as obvious as a ballistic missile.
Not an unfounded opinion, but weren't carriers always intended to be mobile airbases and logistic depots for oveseas adventures, instead of razor edged combat craft like submarines or stealth boats? I doubt the officers put their carriers directly into harm's way and they've got a armada of escorts.

Here's another excerpt:
That’s one way the US Navy could have gone after the Eilat went down: a fleet of smaller, lighter ships, basically ships you could afford to lose. There are some real interesting computer modeled naval war games that seem to be telling us that’s the way to invest your naval budget: lots of small ships carrying big missiles.

Another way would have been to develop an effective defense weapon against ballistic missiles. Maybe the navy tried that; maybe that’s part of what the whole Star Wars boondoggle was actually about, protecting the carriers against weapons like Dong Feng 21. I don’t know.

But it’s real clear by now that if they did try it, they failed. There is no defense. So either you go with boats you can afford to lose, or you downsize the navy radically, turn it into a low-tech anti-piracy force only used against stone-age opponents like the Somalis, or you go the U-boat route the Germans took when they realized the age of the battleship was over, sticking to subs. Because one way or another, if we get into it for real with China or even Iran, all our ships are going to subs, one way or the other.
Swarms of little ships armed with increasingly nasty high-tech weapons is OK (they escort the floating airfields), but what is good about leaving out a sizable and mobile base of operations for long range force projection? Here, Brecher is comparing Nimitz-class aircraft carriers with Medeval knights:
The most obvious example is European heavy cavalry trotting into longbow fire again and again. Crecy demonstrated that knightly charges were suicide against the longbow in 1346. But the French aristocracy had so much invested in prancing around on their damn steeds that it took another demonstration, at Agincourt in 1415 to even start to get them thinking about it. I’m no math wiz but I think that 1415 minus 1346…yup, that’s 69 years between catastrophes. Lessons learned? None.

These dodos always have one thing in common: whether it’s knights charging with lances on very expensive horses or top gun brats like McCain zooming onto carrier decks in history’s most expensive aircraft, you’ll always find that the worst, most over-funded services are always the ones where the rich kids go to show their stuff. Seriously: why are there aircraft carriers? For asses like John McCain to crash on. Why do they keep getting funded long after they’ve been shown up? The same reason knights were galloping around pretending that the longbow hadn’t turned half their friends into pincushions: because it was a way of life for the richest and dumbest people in the country and they weren’t about to let it go.
Didn't mounted soldiers have a lot of staying power well up until the 20th century, even if the aristocratic knights had their eccentricities and gaping flaws? I can see that the Nimitz-class is getting a bit bloated and rusty in the last decade, but the carrier concept is still sound, only that future aircraft carriers would be built much lower to the waterline and they will mostly deploy aircraft without pilots.
Last edited by Big Orange on 2009-05-14 08:22pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Samuel »

The Chinese military has developed a ballistic missile, Dong Feng 21, specifically designed to kill US aircraft carriers:
They make better weapons and we make better counters- that is how weapons technology works.
That’s right: no defense at all. The truth is that they have very feeble defenses against any attack with anything more modern than cannon. I’ve argued before no carrier group would survive a saturation attack by huge numbers of low-value attackers, whether they’re Persians in Cessnas and cigar boats or mass-produced Chinese cruise missiles. But at least you could look at the missile tubes and Phalanx gatlings and pretend that you were safe. But there is no defense, none at all, against something as obvious as a ballistic missile.
Except armor, stealth and point defense.
That’s one way the US Navy could have gone after the Eilat went down: a fleet of smaller, lighter ships, basically ships you could afford to lose. There are some real interesting computer modeled naval war games that seem to be telling us that’s the way to invest your naval budget: lots of small ships carrying big missiles.
Stuart, didn't we have someone who said the same thing a couple of decades ago using the assumption all future battles would use nukes? It wasn't valid then and it isn't valid now- he is assuming a one hit kill. In fact, no where in the article does he provide evidence that the missiles are capable of doing that.
These dodos always have one thing in common: whether it’s knights charging with lances on very expensive horses or top gun brats like McCain zooming onto carrier decks in history’s most expensive aircraft, you’ll always find that the worst, most over-funded services are always the ones where the rich kids go to show their stuff. Seriously: why are there aircraft carriers? For asses like John McCain to crash on. Why do they keep getting funded long after they’ve been shown up? The same reason knights were galloping around pretending that the longbow hadn’t turned half their friends into pincushions: because it was a way of life for the richest and dumbest people in the country and they weren’t about to let it go.
You know that you can run tanks into cities and turn a million dollars into scrap metal if your opponent is smart and well equiped? Tansk aren't made for city fighting unsupported. The problem with the French was they charged the enemy across an open field into prepared positions after it rained.
Didn't mounted soldiers have a lot of staying power well up until the 20th century, even if the aristocratic knights had their eccentricities and gaping flaws?
The Poles deployed calvary in WW2 and did better than people claim. Calvary was a staple of the military until at least WW1. It was replaced by tanks, APCs and other vehicles- if they weren't built we'd still be using calvary. Of course I believe calvary is currently being used in Afghanistan.
only that future aircraft carriers would be built much lower to the waterline
Why? Aren't they already built as low as possible given the constraints they need to fit?
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Rogue 9 »

This was posted in HAB last month. The basics of the whole thing are:

1.) Using the INS Eliat sinking to prove that surface warships are obsolete is laughable. It was a leftover of World War 2, and had no modern defenses whatsoever.

2.) Carrier tactics against a power capable of attacking the carrier battle group are markedly different from those seen in recent wars, which were conducted against nations without that capability. A carrier group in a war against China is not going to steam up and down the coast launching constant airstrikes; a carrier is a hit and fade platform, and would get the hell out of Dodge after recovering aircraft. This makes it hard to ambush the carrier with submarines, and would also make life difficult for someone lobbing ballistic missiles, which have no terminal guidance to speak of.

3.) Whine as the War Nerd might about it, carrier aviation and its accompanying command of the sea is one of the most essential tools in the U.S. arsenal. If the Navy can't operate in an area, the other branches of the military can't go there. The torpedo boat swarm strategy he advocates would not serve any tactical or strategic purpose in a land war.

Really, there's nothing even remotely intelligent about his blatherings; I don't know why he gets any credence from anyone.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Nephtys »

I don't understand a few things of this argument. Giant fleets of inflatable boats and Cessna-type aircraft defeating a carrier battlegroup? Unless hundreds of them somehow stealthily converge on the high seas on a US Battlegroup, it'd have to be detected and utterly crushed at long range by you know. Things like missiles. And planes carrying missiles. And ships with guns?

Also, that 'Dong Feng 21' missile's performance is ridiculous. It's a cross-continental hypersonic ultra missile, that somehow jinks around with an unpredictable trajectory, is 'stealth' despite what kind of ungodly engine it's running on, and somehow accurate enough to hit a ship. Presumably from 2000km away. After a brief google search on the name, it ends up his argument is based on a freaking 500kt IRBM. Well yeah, if you saturation-nuke something, it's not going to live. But at that point, the whole world is screwed anyway. And According to Wikipedia, this wondermissile has been around since the late 70s.
Last edited by Nephtys on 2009-05-14 11:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Starglider »

Nephtys wrote:fter a brief google search on the name, it ends up his argument is based on a freaking 500kt IRBM. Well yeah, if you saturation-nuke something, it's not going to live. But at that point, the whole world is screwed anyway.
Since SM-3 was deployed, even that's not guaranteed to work; it's quite likely that the carrier's escorts will simply shoot down the inbound RV at the edge of the atmosphere.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Stofsk »

Big Orange wrote:
The most obvious example is European heavy cavalry trotting into longbow fire again and again. Crecy demonstrated that knightly charges were suicide against the longbow in 1346. But the French aristocracy had so much invested in prancing around on their damn steeds that it took another demonstration, at Agincourt in 1415 to even start to get them thinking about it. I’m no math wiz but I think that 1415 minus 1346…yup, that’s 69 years between catastrophes. Lessons learned? None.

These dodos always have one thing in common: whether it’s knights charging with lances on very expensive horses or top gun brats like McCain zooming onto carrier decks in history’s most expensive aircraft, you’ll always find that the worst, most over-funded services are always the ones where the rich kids go to show their stuff. Seriously: why are there aircraft carriers? For asses like John McCain to crash on. Why do they keep getting funded long after they’ve been shown up? The same reason knights were galloping around pretending that the longbow hadn’t turned half their friends into pincushions: because it was a way of life for the richest and dumbest people in the country and they weren’t about to let it go.
Didn't mounted soldiers have a lot of staying power well up until the 20th century, even if the aristocratic knights had their eccentricities and gaping flaws? I can see that the Nimitz-class is getting a bit bloated and rusty in the last decade, but the carrier concept is still sound, only that future aircraft carriers would be built much lower to the waterline and they will mostly deploy aircraft without pilots.
Someone more knowledgeable than I can provide a more informed opinion, but I thought that the end of feudalism is what ended the Knight's dominance. The longbow didn't magically destroy the benefit of a mass heavy cavalry charge, and plate armour was a tough nut to crack from what I've heard.

Like you said, the guy obviously has issues with aircraft carriers, but it's not the first time I've heard that opinion espoused. They've been saying for decades that submarines will become the dominant military war vessel. I don't know if that would be the case, since naval missions involve command of the sea, not just denying the enemy access to it (which I believe is what submarines are excellent at accomplishing).
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Starglider »

Stofsk wrote:The longbow didn't magically destroy the benefit of a mass heavy cavalry charge, and plate armour was a tough nut to crack from what I've heard.
Not really. I've been to several demonstrations where armor piercing arrows were shot through steel plates - with relatively light pull longbows, crossbows are even worse. Even the best plate armor can only protect against glancing hits. That said those AP arrows make a relatively narrow wound channel; they won't reliably bring down a horse or even a man (if struck in an extremity) like the broadhead arrows will, so you need huge volleys of them. Cavalry simply has to use its mobility and any available cover to avoid being under fire for long periods - of course this led to an increasing focus on light cavalry over heavy cavalry.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Stark »

I've seen some pretty misleading 'demonstrations' of bow efficacy vs armour; rigidly mounted steel at 90 degrees to direct-fire arrows might NOT be a solid representation of armour worn by a man as part of a defensive suit. Of course it was not a sure thing, particularly with crossbows, but plate evolved in response to threats.

That said, this guy appears to be claiming that Persians in cigarette boats can defeat carriers... so... he's strange.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Plate had to contend with a bunch of challenges. It was pricey to start with and it had to deal with a variety of hand to hand combat weapons designed to defeat it, crossbows, longbows, and massed pike/gun infantry formations.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Vendetta »

Samuel wrote: The Poles deployed calvary in WW2 and did better than people claim. Calvary was a staple of the military until at least WW1. It was replaced by tanks, APCs and other vehicles- if they weren't built we'd still be using calvary. Of course I believe calvary is currently being used in Afghanistan.
Polish mounted troops weren't what you think of as cavalry in that they didn't fight from horseback, just used horses to get from place to place and fought dismounted.

They were in the process of mechanising the remaining mounted units when war stopped play.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Black Admiral »

Big Orange wrote:Didn't mounted soldiers have a lot of staying power well up until the 20th century, even if the aristocratic knights had their eccentricities and gaping flaws?
Well, that would depend on how you define cavalry, and which armies you look at. While for the British Army, the knee-to-knee charge with sabre and lance was certainly obsolescent by 1900 (arguably sooner, but that's somewhat beside the point), following the Second Boer War the cavalry entire was retasked as mounted infantry, and trained to use fire or shock action as the situation required.

And, in fact, British & Imperial cavalry achieved some success in taking sabre and lance to the King's enemies during WW1, including at least one case as late as 1918.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by That NOS Guy »

Black Admiral wrote: Well, that would depend on how you define cavalry, and which armies you look at. While for the British Army, the knee-to-knee charge with sabre and lance was certainly obsolescent by 1900 (arguably sooner, but that's somewhat beside the point), following the Second Boer War the cavalry entire was retasked as mounted infantry, and trained to use fire or shock action as the situation required.

And, in fact, British & Imperial cavalry achieved some success in taking sabre and lance to the King's enemies during WW1, including at least one case as late as 1918.
The only successful instance of British calvary issuing a successful charge in World War I was at Cambrai after the initial breakthrough. I'd be curious to know further instances.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Black Admiral »

That NOS Guy wrote:
Black Admiral wrote:Well, that would depend on how you define cavalry, and which armies you look at. While for the British Army, the knee-to-knee charge with sabre and lance was certainly obsolescent by 1900 (arguably sooner, but that's somewhat beside the point), following the Second Boer War the cavalry entire was retasked as mounted infantry, and trained to use fire or shock action as the situation required.

And, in fact, British & Imperial cavalry achieved some success in taking sabre and lance to the King's enemies during WW1, including at least one case as late as 1918.
The only successful instance of British calvary issuing a successful charge in World War I was at Cambrai after the initial breakthrough. I'd be curious to know further instances.
Richard Holmes mentions the charge of the Secunderabad Cavalry Brigade on 14 July 1916, near High Wood on the Somme; the war diaries of the Secunderabad Brigade listing as their casualties in the charge one officer wounded, two troopers killed and twenty wounded (7th Dragoon Guards), two Indian officers wounded, three troopers killed and fifty wounded (Deccan Horse), in return for spearing sixteen Germans and capturing thirty-two (7th/DG; the Deccan Horse killed an unknown number and captured six), with the brigade machine-gun squadron silencing German MGs firing from Longueval village and, along with N Battery RHA, inflicting an unknown number of additional casualties (Tommy: The British Soldier on the Western Front, pg 441). I can type up the relevant passages if necessary.

There's a mention in Mud, Blood and Poppycock (Gordon Corrigan) of a squadron of Lord Strathcona's Horse successfully charging a German infantry battalion on 30 March 1918, but I can't find reference to that elsewhere. And there were some reasonably effective charges by the Cavalry Division of the BEF in 1914, but finding the details of those in Riding the Retreat (Holmes again) might take a while.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

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Stark wrote: That said, this guy appears to be claiming that Persians in cigarette boats can defeat carriers... so... he's strange.
Shortly before 9/11 didn't a Al'Qaeda inflatable dingy punch a big hole in the USS Cole? Although that happening to a Nimitz-class would be more unlikely if it was out in the open ocean and shadowed by dozens of smaller surface ships and subs in a broad circle. If aircraft carriers are scrapped altogether and the US Navy's left with subs, destroyers, frigates, and the like, the US Navy would be all teeth with no tail and legs to support it.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by fgalkin »

Why is anyone taking the War Nerd seriously?

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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

I don't know, but his opinions have utterly no military validity, and should simply be ignored in the same way any other glorified pontificating troll with no real knowledge is.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Rogue 9 »

Big Orange wrote:
Stark wrote: That said, this guy appears to be claiming that Persians in cigarette boats can defeat carriers... so... he's strange.
Shortly before 9/11 didn't a Al'Qaeda inflatable dingy punch a big hole in the USS Cole? Although that happening to a Nimitz-class would be more unlikely if it was out in the open ocean and shadowed by dozens of smaller surface ships and subs in a broad circle. If aircraft carriers are scrapped altogether and the US Navy's left with subs, destroyers, frigates, and the like, the US Navy would be all teeth with no tail and legs to support it.
Yes. The War Nerd likes to point to the USS Cole as well in support of his theory of the obsolescence of large surface ships, but the bombing happened in port. Attempting such an attack while the destroyer was underway and on combat alert would be utterly futile.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Big Orange »

Rogue 9 wrote: Yes. The War Nerd likes to point to the USS Cole as well in support of his theory of the obsolescence of large surface ships, but the bombing happened in port. Attempting such an attack while the destroyer was underway and on combat alert would be utterly futile.
I fully agree and why the fuck does Brecher assume that the officers would allow a Nimitz-class to be within shooting range of the enemy? And Iran's speed boats of doom do not have the same range, power, and speed as a F/A-18 Hornet. Heck, the Iranian missle boats would likely be picked off by Seahawks before they'd come within range of the aircraft carrier the Seahawks were deployed from.
Last edited by Big Orange on 2009-05-15 04:34pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

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The War Nerd makes Zor look like David Glantz.

That is all.

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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Coyote »

WarNerd is just another type of Mikey Sparks dude. A navy version of "Captain Gavinman!"

Oh, and minor nitpick, for the folks not in the know-- it's CAV-alry, not CAL-vary.

Cavalry is soldiers on horseback.
Calvary is the name of one of the supposed hilltops where Jesus was theoretically crucified.

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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Steve »

For a long, long time I made that error, Coyote. :?
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by thejester »

That NOS Guy wrote:
Black Admiral wrote: Well, that would depend on how you define cavalry, and which armies you look at. While for the British Army, the knee-to-knee charge with sabre and lance was certainly obsolescent by 1900 (arguably sooner, but that's somewhat beside the point), following the Second Boer War the cavalry entire was retasked as mounted infantry, and trained to use fire or shock action as the situation required.

And, in fact, British & Imperial cavalry achieved some success in taking sabre and lance to the King's enemies during WW1, including at least one case as late as 1918.
The only successful instance of British calvary issuing a successful charge in World War I was at Cambrai after the initial breakthrough. I'd be curious to know further instances.
Obviously not the Western Front but cavalry were still being used in the shock role in Palestine. The most famous is probably the charge of the 4th Light Horse Brigade at Beersheba, but it happened fairly frequently IIRC at a lower unit level. It's interesting to note that by the end of the war the Australian Mounted Division had equipped itself with cavalry sabres, having originally had none (as the Light Horse were seen as mounted infantry).

The_Saint knows shitloads more about it than me, shoot him a PM if you're really interested.
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by Sidewinder »

Idiot who EPIC FAILed at military history wrote:That’s one way the US Navy could have gone after the Eilat went down: a fleet of smaller, lighter ships, basically ships you could afford to lose. There are some real interesting computer modeled naval war games that seem to be telling us that’s the way to invest your naval budget: lots of small ships carrying big missiles.
Problem 1: your lots of small ships must NOT be so small if they want to get within missile range of the carrier. Modern fixed wing aircraft have combat radii of HUNDREDS of MILES, which means the carrier is likely HUNDREDS of MILES away from whatever's defending the target those carrier-borne planes will attack, unless the carrier captain is grossly incompetent.

Problem 2: it costs the US military HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of dollars to put ONE INDIVIDUAL through basic training. It costs MILLIONS to put this individual through special operations qualification, and MILLIONS MORE if you want this individual to competently operate tanks, helicopters, and other weapon platforms. This means there's NO SUCH THING as a "ship you could afford to lose"- the enormous expense of training a single sailor, means a navy can't consider any ship "expendable" as long as it needs a crew, unless you're talking about a terrorist group with plenty of volunteers for suicide missions. And considering he plans to use these small ships against an aircraft carrier, which is GUARANTEED to be very well defended- it must be, considering how much $$$ a navy must spend to build and then operate one- that means these small ships need VERY EXPENSIVE communications systems so satellites or whatever can provide targeting data to those missiles, unless those ships are large enough to mount VERY EXPENSIVE radar and sonar to provide the targeting data themselves.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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That NOS Guy
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by That NOS Guy »

thejester wrote: Obviously not the Western Front but cavalry were still being used in the shock role in Palestine. The most famous is probably the charge of the 4th Light Horse Brigade at Beersheba, but it happened fairly frequently IIRC at a lower unit level. It's interesting to note that by the end of the war the Australian Mounted Division had equipped itself with cavalry sabres, having originally had none (as the Light Horse were seen as mounted infantry).

The_Saint knows shitloads more about it than me, shoot him a PM if you're really interested.
There are times where I have moments of complete stupidty, and forgetting an entire theater of operations where mobile troops were still used is one of them. Thanks to you and Black Admiral for the info.
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fgalkin
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Re: Gary Brecher Sure has a Fixation With Aircraft Carriers...

Post by fgalkin »

Cavalry was widely used in the Russian Civil War, and the Russo-Polish war- probably the last wars where it was used to a wide extent. The Konarmia, the 1st Cavalry Army was arguably the most important unit in the whole Red Army.

It was dictated by the terrain- the Ukraine is mostly flat steppe- perfect for mobile warfare.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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