"God would never do that, Daddy"

[Stravo]

Thought I'd share this little moment I had over the weekend. My daughter spent the long weekend with me and we're watching Prince of Egypt that just happened to start while we're channel surfing looking for something to watch. For those that don't know Prince of Egypt is an animated film recounting the story of Moses and how he gets the Hebrew people out of Egypt. It is a rather good movie with nice musical numbers. My daughter told me her religion class (she is in Catholic school) recently screened the movie for them.

When it got to the part where the Angel of Death descends to kill the first born of Egypt she looks back at me and in an ernest serious manner tells me "This part is made up. God would never do that. He would never kill babies."

I bit my tongue because I have decided not to expose my daughter to my athiesm but let her come to her own conclusions about religion and spirituality. But I do provide food for thought when she wants to discuss it. I replied neutrally "It's in the bible honey."

"That part is made up." she asserted again with a shake of her head.

"You're going to find alot of things in the bible that you don't like sweetheart."

She looked pensive for a moment and without a word returned her attention to the movie.

Interesting that an almost 9 year old immediately is troubled by the revelation that God kills babies, seeing it as immoral and wrong yet fundies the world over accept this side of their god without hesitation or reservation.

As an extra question for the parents on the board - what's been your position on your children and spirituality? Let them find their own path or indoctrinate them to yours?

[tim31]

Emily's family expected that we have Charlotte christened, and Emily didn't want to disappoint them. But I insisted that we get my old school chaplain to do it because he has a very open attitude towards faith.

Father John pointed out to us that even if we never darkened the doors of a church again, we couldn't just have her christened and then later tell her that she could make her own mind up, because we had already chosen for her to be christened. Emily was just appeasing her family, so she didn't care either way. Charlotte will likely be going to either a catholic or anglican private school for her secondary education, so she'll have exposure to religion there.

If she asks me about the bible at all, I'll tell her what I've always thought about it- it's all in how you interpret it, and this is why it causes so many shitfights. But basically, every book of it was written by someone interpreting events as they saw, remembered, or dreamed, so by the time you're reading it, it's at least third hand information. In any case, she's only two and a half, so we're not at this stage just yet, but she does know the story of Noah's Ark; isn't that the first one everyone finds out about?

[Darth Wong]

A parent's early responses to this question probably have a huge effect on the child's development.

For example, when my son Matthew first heard the Noah's Ark story presented to him in Sunday School as if it were factual, he asked "Dad, did that really happen?" Note the way the question is phrased; without any prompting, he is clearly skeptical despite having an adult present it to him as fact.

Now what happens at this point? If I tell him it's possible, he learns to accept authority and quell the doubts raised by his rational thought processes. But instead, I said "No, it's just a stupid story" and I pointed out all the reasons Noah couldn't possibly build that boat or grab an example of every species on Earth, giving polar bears as just one example. And he raised a couple of more objections of his own, like asking how one man could build it by himself when it takes a whole team of guys just to renovate the next-door neighbour's house.

Early childhood answers to these questions should not be taken lightly. Of course, I don't have to worry about dealing with "God's morality" issues since I don't believe in any of that bullshit anyway, but it's even trickier if you want to convince someone to accept a lot of self-contradictory bullshit, like "God is unconditional love" + "The Bible is true" + "God butchers his enemies". To be honest, a lot of the answers I hear parents give to kids about questions like this boil down to "You're just a child, you don't understand, stop thinking so much" or "God had his reasons" (which is just another way of saying the same thing; "you can't understand, it's beyond you, stop trying to reason it out").

[Aaron]

We're steering away from having belief in a god or religion in our childrens upbringing. I don't believe in god and Mrs Kendall doesn't know what she believes but she doesn';t want to be held accountable to anyone but herself and her family. We were originally going to send our children to Catholic school but after some serious thought on that we opted for public school. We have had "the death talk" with them in an effort to help them understand why daddy has PTSD and what happened to my friend but we never mentioned god or heaven and my mother in laws questions of "have you ewxplained that when you die you go to heaven?" have been met with answers of "we're not teaching our children that". If our children decide at some point they want to persue a faith that's their decision but I won't encourage it. I will encourage them to take a world religion class in high school if they have it so they have an understanding of the worlds faiths though.

[Admiral Valdemar]

You know, it's threads like these that make me have some hope in the species. If we can get the majority of kids asking such smart questions and being more sceptical of obviously flawed "facts", then the next generation may just help the planet.

[hongi]

I asked some Christians about this and they said that God did it because he knew best. As if! Couldn't God have gotten the people out of Egypt some other way than mass-genocide?

[Lazarus]

Obviously I'm not in a position to speak from any sort of parental viewpoint, but personally I'd say that if you're in a situation where religion is being taught as fact, you have to make your kids aware that it isn't fact, and they have to make up they're own minds. Essentially, it's just balancing things out.

[Jason von Evil]

Nice to know the next generation of SDNeters (specifically, the next PST/Fanfic mod ) is smart enough to not totally believe that book.

[Spyder]

I remember back in my primary catholic school, all the kids were trying to work out exactly when it was that God decided to opt for a more hands-off approach.

[Darth Wong]

I remember back in my primary catholic school, all the kids were trying to work out exactly when it was that God decided to opt for a more hands-off approach.

I remember back in university, people at the church college would sit around the dinner table discussing questions like "What do you think you'll be wearing in Heaven". Seriously. I wish I was making this up, but I'm not.

The consensus was that you would look exactly the way you did on the best day in your life, which was presumed to be your wedding day. So in their minds, Heaven is a lot of people in their 20s walking around wearing wedding dresses and tuxedos.

Religion sucks the intelligence out of people.

[Spyder]

What exactly do church colleges teach? Throughout the academic life of the subject starting from grade one there's only one textbook and the subject matter doesn't change.

[Darth Wong]

What exactly do church colleges teach? Throughout the academic life of the subject starting from grade one there's only one textbook and the subject matter doesn't change.

That's why it's only a dorm on a larger university campus, and there are only a couple of courses that they teach. This particular church college taught theology and something called "Peace and Conflict Studies". Needless to say, they may be fundies but they're not Bush fundies. I can say with some confidence that if I were to interview these people today, they would despise Bush to a man because of his warmongering.

[Shannon]

We have two girls, Alexa (7) and Briana (1). When it came time for Alexa to be christened I was still waveringly Catholic. I went to Catholic schools exclusively, Jonelle (my wife) didn't but interestingly she's got a stronger religious belief. By the time it came to the choice of primary school for Alexa I was fully atheist and managed to talk Jonelle into a secular state school for her.

But then a government review of all schools in our town happened and we didn't know what the outcome would be. There's a reasonably good Catholic school just up our street and so I reluctantly agreed to try and get her in there, with the proviso that I would not hold back the truth if asked by Alexa. I was braced for the priest's questions about my personal beliefs but because both our families are known Catholics it never came up - it just taken for granted that I was too. Ironically, a year or two later the government started reviewing the Catholic schools too. Shoulda stuck with the state school.

Anyway to get back to the OP, Alexa knows I'm an atheist. She comes home and talks about what she's learned in Religious Education and asks me questions, which I try to reply to without directly contradicting Jonelle (usually not a problem, Jonelle is a 'cappucino Catholic', not a dogmatic diehard - she has faith but doesn't take the Bible literally). So Alexa is aware that there's a dissenting pov, unlike me at the same age. I questioned and tried to rationalise from about age 9, but was never encouraged to do so. Alexa's not sure she likes my approach - hers is a much rosier, more uncomplicated world view, more romantic. I tend to burst that bubble at times. I've observed that they've been very careful so far not to teach anything that might cause too many questions to be raised, at least not that I know of. Having read this thread, however, I might ask Alexa a few questions of my own and see where that leads.

[CmdrWilkens]

While I don't have kids yet Megan and myself have had to start talking about it simply because she comes from a very strict Catholic family and I come from a mixed marriage of liberal Lutheranism and Catholicism. She is very passionate about ensuring what children we do have are brought up Catholic but I was damant and am adamant that I will make no excuses and answer every question about why Daddy doesn't go to church with everyone else and why he doesn't take communion if he does go.

[Kojiro]

Father John pointed out to us that even if we never darkened the doors of a church again, we couldn't just have her christened and then later tell her that she could make her own mind up, because we had already chosen for her to be christened.

I've heard that christening is considered 'irreversible' (in as much as it actually does anything) in the eyes of the church. Does anyone know if being christened (or any other similar ritual) have any impact on your later ability to join another religion later in life?

[Elheru Aran]

Father John pointed out to us that even if we never darkened the doors of a church again, we couldn't just have her christened and then later tell her that she could make her own mind up, because we had already chosen for her to be christened.

I've heard that christening is considered 'irreversible' (in as much as it actually does anything) in the eyes of the church. Does anyone know if being christened (or any other similar ritual) have any impact on your later ability to join another religion later in life?

Depends on said other religion's acceptance of christening as valid or not. I know Baptists wouldn't give a shit if a Catholic wanted to become one, he'd just have to be 're-Baptized' by immersion rather than the dinky little sprinkles.

[Darth Servo]

What exactly do church colleges teach? Throughout the academic life of the subject starting from grade one there's only one textbook and the subject matter doesn't change.

You'd be surprised at the amount of stuff they can dredge up at religious universities like Notre Dame, Texas Christian and Brigham Young. I've seen listings for classes just on single books of the Bible, particularly the wierder ones like Isaiah and Revelation.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I remember back in my primary catholic school, all the kids were trying to work out exactly when it was that God decided to opt for a more hands-off approach.

I remember back in university, people at the church college would sit around the dinner table discussing questions like "What do you think you'll be wearing in Heaven". Seriously. I wish I was making this up, but I'm not.

The consensus was that you would look exactly the way you did on the best day in your life, which was presumed to be your wedding day. So in their minds, Heaven is a lot of people in their 20s walking around wearing wedding dresses and tuxedos.

Gives me more of a mental image of Miss Havisham, actually.

[Darth Wong]

Father John pointed out to us that even if we never darkened the doors of a church again, we couldn't just have her christened and then later tell her that she could make her own mind up, because we had already chosen for her to be christened.

I've heard that christening is considered 'irreversible' (in as much as it actually does anything) in the eyes of the church.

That's because people don't understand what christening is. They think it's some fancy-ass spiritual symbolism. It's not. It's just an official ceremony for permanently putting you on their mailing list.

Imagine if E-mail spammers had a ceremony for putting you on their spam lists. That's what christening is for a Christian church. My wife was away from her church for ten fucking years before they stopped sending her shit.

Does anyone know if being christened (or any other similar ritual) have any impact on your later ability to join another religion later in life?

Are there any religions which honestly say "you can't join" as long as you're heterosexual?

[Seggybop]

My daughter told me her religion class (she is in Catholic school) recently screened the movie for them.

I bit my tongue because I have decided not to expose my daughter to my athiesm but let her come to her own conclusions about religion and spirituality.

It's alright for her to be exposed to that crap at school, but not to tell her your own perspective?

[Setzer]

I remember when I was in 2nd or 3rd grade, and I was reading about God's final judgement, where those who didn't worship him would be damned eternally. I didn't believe it would really be final for everybody, since a lot of my religious upbringing emphasized God's love and forgiveness. Sometime later, Mom was remarking about her younger years, where she was deluded into thinking a forgiving god wouldn't send anybody to Hell. And how wrong she knew her assumptions were now.

[Pablo Sanchez]

It's alright for her to be exposed to that crap at school, but not to tell her your own perspective?

The situation is a little more complex then "RARZ me hate the bible," Seggybop. If the girl's mother is raising her in the faith and sending her to Catholic school, the mother would probably see exposing his daughter to atheism not only as undermining her as a parent but also attacking her whole belief system. Even if Stravo isn't with the mother, his relationship with his daughter has to be based on compromise between the parents, compromise that would probably be severely damaged if he did that.

Secondly, when a little kid has been raised to believe something, it can be traumatic to suddenly pull the rug out from under that belief. The idea that trusted authority figures including her mother have been lying to her would be world-shaking for a child.

Finally, Stravo said that he wants his daughter to be able to draw her own conclusions and make her own decisions about her faith. He doesn't want to poison the well by using his bully pulpit as a parent to make her accept his beliefs or lack thereof; this is a laudable idea.

[Adrian Laguna]

I've heard that christening is considered 'irreversible' (in as much as it actually does anything) in the eyes of the church.

That's because people don't understand what christening is. They think it's some fancy-ass spiritual symbolism. It's not. It's just an official ceremony for permanently putting you on their mailing list.

Imagine if E-mail spammers had a ceremony for putting you on their spam lists. That's what christening is for a Christian church. My wife was away from her church for ten fucking years before they stopped sending her shit.

You know, for a third world country Venezuela's approach to religion is rather secular. What's a christening in my home country? Practically speaking, two things: 1) showing-off the baby to the 100+ relatives and friends who'll be attending, 2) an excuse to throw a huge party with a 100+ relatives and friends. Unless you can't afford whisky for that many people, then you've gotta whittle down the size of the party until you can afford enough booze for everyone.

Spam from the church? No such thing. Come to think of it, we don't get spam from anyone. Probably a result of a nearly non-functioning mail service. Instead, you see ads crammed in the unlikeliest of places. There's a few residential buildings with gigantic ads painted on their sides. And there's trucks with billboards now, the drivers literally get paid to get stuck in traffic.

[Darth Wong]

It's alright for her to be exposed to that crap at school, but not to tell her your own perspective?

The situation is a little more complex then "RARZ me hate the bible," Seggybop. If the girl's mother is raising her in the faith and sending her to Catholic school, the mother would probably see exposing his daughter to atheism not only as undermining her as a parent but also attacking her whole belief system. Even if Stravo isn't with the mother, his relationship with his daughter has to be based on compromise between the parents, compromise that would probably be severely damaged if he did that.

Secondly, when a little kid has been raised to believe something, it can be traumatic to suddenly pull the rug out from under that belief. The idea that trusted authority figures including her mother have been lying to her would be world-shaking for a child.

Finally, Stravo said that he wants his daughter to be able to draw her own conclusions and make her own decisions about her faith. He doesn't want to poison the well by using his bully pulpit as a parent to make her accept his beliefs or lack thereof; this is a laudable idea.

It's all well and good to say this until you realize that the other parent is using her position as a bully pulpit. The other parent is creating a situation where someone has to either lie or be undermined. So it still boils down to a double standard.

The only fair way to raise a child in an interfaith relationship is for both parents to be honest with the child. Giving one parent some sort of default authority to dictate matters of faith while the other must either shut up or risk "undermining" the primary is rather obviously unfair. Now if both sides accept that there shall be a state of unfairness in this relationship and they're OK with that, it's none of my business. But it is still quite clearly unfair. Not just to the parents, but perhaps most of all to the child.

Keeping children in the dark does not do them some sort of grand service. It is in fact a disservice.

[Vympel]

I remember when our school (private) had a bunch of Christian missionaries come in to talk to us about Jesus and God and all of that stuff etc etc.

I'd always have a smart-ass mouth in class- it was Year 8 or 9, IIRC. I hadn't really given much thought to religion or matters of faith one way or the other.

Somehow, the topic of heaven and damnation and before I knew what I doing I asked if they thought it was appropriate that under Christianity, some ignorant-of-the-Word guy in some village in India or some such burned in hell because of where he was born.

The retort was that everyone on the planet was given an opportunity to acept Jesus, and if they didn't it was their choice.

I then said something along the lines of: "and if you were born in India you'd be a Hindu and would burn in hell, and that'd be the end of it."

I wasn't terribly popular for a few hours after that.