6 Reasons (+2) to NOT Send Your Daughter to College

[Kitsune]

This stuff burns me. . .uppermost comment (when I pulled this) says it all
So, please, what is an 18yo girl to do then? Bag groceries till a prince charming comes along to give a few kids?

Just too much to post the whole thing
http://www.fixthefamily.com/blog/6-reas ... to-college

Repeats several times the idea of Homeschooling . . . .To be blunt, I am mostly against homeschooling

A quick list:
1. She will attract the wrong types of men. (Lazy gold diggers will flock to an educated women)
2. She will be in a near association of sin. (College age kids have sex also if she's having sex with him she won't realize what a douche he is)
3. She will not learn to be a wife and mother. (WTF)
4. The cost of a degree is becoming more difficult to recoup. (Sorta kinda true)
5. You don't have to prove anything to the world. (Some girls only go to college due to peer pressure)
6. It could be a near occasion of sin for the parents. (Parents may use contraception to avoid the cost of college, WTF?)
7. She will regret (Cause women really just want to stay at home and raise the kids)

8. Because nuns won't take you if you have too much debt.

[Raw Shark]

They do kind of have a point on #4. The rest just reads like, "Honey, you've already got all the education you need right there between your legs."

I've got to ask why you (mostly) oppose homeschooling, though. Just because it is mostly done by bible-smoking jackasses to shield their spawn from competing ideas doesn't make the whole concept bad. [warning: anecdote] I had a friend growing up whose [atheist] parents got the proper certification and homeschooled him because they were critical of the public school system, couldn't afford anything else, and felt they could do better, and he ended up going to MIT for biochem.

[Kitsune]

They do kind of have a point on #4. The rest just reads like, "Honey, you've already got all the education you need right there between your legs."

I've got to ask why you (mostly) oppose homeschooling, though. Just because it is mostly done by bible-smoking jackasses to shield their spawn from competing ideas doesn't make the whole concept bad. [warning: anecdote] I had a friend growing up whose [atheist] parents got the proper certification and homeschooled him because they were critical of the public school system, couldn't afford anything else, and felt they could do better, and he ended up going to MIT for biochem.

There are going to exceptions to everything. . . .There will be some parents who can do a good great job at home school.
I do not see that as the majority however. That is how the laws work generally.
Laws are designed to work for the majority with some special exception but in.
I consider that in far more cases, homeschooling fails instead of helping.
Many places have little laws as far as homeschooling.
Even with the parents who have the ability, the problem is that we need to fix the school system.

[Broomstick]

A quick list:
1. She will attract the wrong types of men. (Lazy gold diggers will flock to an educated women)

You could say the same about your sons, that lazy gold diggers will seek out men with lucrative professions... but then society has never frowned on trophy wives, have they?

2. She will be in a near association of sin. (College age kids have sex also if she's having sex with him she won't realize what a douche he is)

Right... because kids in high school and junior high aren't having sex.

Actually, despite being a pagan spawned of an atheist and a Jew I managed to make it to 21 before giving up my virginity (I refuse to say "lost" it - I know exactly where it went). It's not that I didn't want to have sex, my hormones kicked in at the usual age just fine, but I was taught self-respect, self-control, and how to guard against exploitation so when I did have sex for the first time it was a pleasant experience with a guy who actually care about me and treated me very well. Oh, what a notion - let's teach kids about these things instead of scaring the shit out of them or leaving them ignorant.

3. She will not learn to be a wife and mother. (WTF)

It's a Catholic website, what did you expect? Women are either wives/mothers or nuns. It's the world view. Any woman who marries and finds herself without offspring is to be pitied no matter what other worthwhile things she might achieve with her life.

4. The cost of a degree is becoming more difficult to recoup. (Sorta kinda true)

This applies equally to sons these days.

5. You don't have to prove anything to the world. (Some girls only go to college due to peer pressure)

Sounds like the familar litany used to hold lots of people down over the years: "You don't have to do that, that's for your betters", "Don't worry your pretty little head over that", "That's not for people like you", and so on.

6. It could be a near occasion of sin for the parents. (Parents may use contraception to avoid the cost of college, WTF?)

"Sins of the fathers" and all that happy horseshit. This, after all, a religion that teaches that every one in history is required to suffer all their life, and risk eternal torment, because of a misstep by the first two human beings. Of course it's the responsibility of the kids to either keep their parents from sinning, or pay the consequences of their parents' sins.

7. She will regret (Cause women really just want to stay at home and raise the kids)

In other words, better not to try at all rather than risk failur.

8. Because nuns won't take you if you have too much debt.

In other words, you won't be good enough for the Church's Women's Auxiliary.

[Zaune]

They do kind of have a point on #4. The rest just reads like, "Honey, you've already got all the education you need right there between your legs."

I've got to ask why you (mostly) oppose homeschooling, though. Just because it is mostly done by bible-smoking jackasses to shield their spawn from competing ideas doesn't make the whole concept bad. [warning: anecdote] I had a friend growing up whose [atheist] parents got the proper certification and homeschooled him because they were critical of the public school system, couldn't afford anything else, and felt they could do better, and he ended up going to MIT for biochem.

If they were critical of the public school system then they should have joined the local PTA or run as school governors and done something about it instead of opting out and declaring it someone else's problem.

[Kitsune]

If they were critical of the public school system then they should have joined the local PTA or run as school governors and done something about it instead of opting out and declaring it someone else's problem.

Other thing is that just because you child gos to public school does not mean that you could not have your own supplemental material.

It is interesting that no matter where you are, criticizing homeschooling seems to always get comments back

[Ahriman238]

I'm a huge fan of the way the way they say that any objection to their list is an emotional kneejerk to their attack on the feminist ideal, and will promptly run out of steam once they logically explain their ideas. Still waiting for the promised effect, though.

Oh yes, and apparently having women uneducated isn't trapping them into an ignorant and servile role, it's the degree that's the trap... because once they enter a college program they're locked into a career path. Oh yes, apparently working is beneath women, because they're already paying for the Fall of the Man with childbirth pain while men suffer through toiling to provide for their families (a claim of dubious theology and nonexistent logic.)

Hey, a great point brought up! Women might want to learn to work in case the house breadwinner is disabled, killed or runs off with the leggy waitress! I absolutely agree! Oh, wait, you're not going to address the husband leaving, and all you'll say about the first two cases is a responsible couple would already and always be prepared for such a financial disaster.



Addressing the other conversation, my siblings and I were home-schooled 1st-8th Grade, and I like to think we turned out alright. Mind, our program was less like Bible camp and more like a school with most of the odious aspects removed or reduced.

[eyl]

Hey, a great point brought up! Women might want to learn to work in case the house breadwinner is disabled, killed or runs off with the leggy waitress! I absolutely agree! Oh, wait, you're not going to address the husband leaving, and all you'll say about the first two cases is a responsible couple would already and always be prepared for such a financial disaster.

Actually, the last point is addressed - it's basically the woman's fault for not choosing a proper husband.

I also like how the author cites a female doctor to support (sort of) his argument.

[Forgothrax]

Sounds like most of the fundie fucknuts I grew up hearing this shit from. At least my parents encouraged my sisters to get degrees as a backup for when they're wives and mothers.

As for homeschooling, I was homeschooled. While I felt pretty well prepared academically as a result, if my ACT/SAT scores and degree are any indication, I will note that the process did stifle me socially significantly. Didn't help we moved every six months for 9 years, either. Homeschooling can be done right, but it requires the parents to put in a lot of qualified effort and to either tap resources outside the home for high school or send the kids out. In addition, socialization has to be facilitated by the parents for the children to grow up somewhat normally.

[Kitsune]

From the comments:

Do whatever you want (besides be a couch potato and watch TV and surf the internet). It doesn't take that much $ for a girl to live at home with her parents until she meets Mr. Right. It's much better for your morals as well. Think about this: What would you do if you could do ANYTHING you want and didn't feel like you HAVE to go to college? So the only reason you're going to college is to get a husband? That's a pretty expensive dating game, which often fails.

The girl is suppose to live at home but not be a couch potato and watch TV or surf the internet?
Is she suppose to sit back straight in her Victorian style dress and wait for Mr Right to just knock on the door "I hear you have a daughter. I am here to court her?"

[Broomstick]

She's supposed to help her mother keep house and care for all those other children the lack of birth control made happen, and babysit for various sisters, cousins, and nieces as needed, and pray and go to church.

In other words, train for endless motherhood.

Which is fine if that's what the girl really wants. Some women really do want that life and I absolutely support their right to pursue such happiness. The problem is when EVERY woman is forced into that role.

[Lagmonster]

I'd like to say that a college education, when you can afford it, helps with just about anything you do in life, including parenting. Show me a person who has passed the rigours of a serious degree, who demonstrates that they can manage their time, work hard, and make sensible choices. Who has more than a flippant knowledge of the education system, how it works, and how to help their kids through it. That person can be a good parent.

[Broomstick]

On the flip side, anyone who is a good parent also acquires those skills.

The problem is the high number of bad parents and failed college students.

[Kitsune]

He wants "Stepford Wife" style daughters. And I find more gems
"Surrendered Wife" movement
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/cerir ... me_squirm/

[Serafina]

Homeschooling HAS to be opposed* because it's essentially a recipe for abusive parents to isolate their kids and keep abusing them. It has to be opposed because it allows parents to indoctrinate their children without any outside influence.

Or, ask yourself why its mostly religious nutters who homeschool.
It can't be because its made too hard by the government, and only the most determined do it - after all, there is very little regulation on homeschooling in most US-states.
No, it's because homeschooling has two sides:
- For educated, determined parents, it can be a way to ensure that their kid gets a good regulation regardless of the quality of public schools
- It is also a very good way to keep as much control over your kids as possible.
The latter appeals to religious extremists and abusers (two categories which often overlap). It's for the latter reason that homeschooling needs to be opposed.


Incidentally, these are the kinds of religious extremists i am talking about - you can find them abundantly amongst US-homeschoolers.



*at least in the USA. Homeschooling with good oversight and quality control, with certification requirements and regular checkups on the progress and well-being of the children is another story, but thats not what you have in the USA - in most states there is little to no regulation at all.

[Phillip Hone]

They do kind of have a point on #4. The rest just reads like, "Honey, you've already got all the education you need right there between your legs."

I've got to ask why you (mostly) oppose homeschooling, though. Just because it is mostly done by bible-smoking jackasses to shield their spawn from competing ideas doesn't make the whole concept bad. [warning: anecdote] I had a friend growing up whose [atheist] parents got the proper certification and homeschooled him because they were critical of the public school system, couldn't afford anything else, and felt they could do better, and he ended up going to MIT for biochem.

If they were critical of the public school system then they should have joined the local PTA or run as school governors and done something about it instead of opting out and declaring it someone else's problem.

I think you may be overstating the kind of say that parents get in the school system, even when they are involved. Public schools are not democracies. And to the extent they are democratic, people with unique needs (children with autism) are going to have a pretty difficult time convincing everyone else to give enough of a shit to do something about their particular problems with the school. Many home schooling parents we knew DID try to get involved with their school - their efforts simply went nowhere. Also, there is no such thing as "opting out," because anyone paying taxes continues to give the school money.

Sure, there's something to be said for at least trying, but in my opinion, parents shouldn't have an unlimited obligations to battle an apathetic or even hostile institution at the expense of their children. Let's remember also that public schools haven't historically been very kind to many groups of people.

[houser2112]

I also like how the author cites a female doctor to support (sort of) his argument.

While it would be deliciously ironic if that was true, Dr. Kim Hardey is indeed a man

[Zwinmar]

I don't get why people think they are qualified to home school. Not that some private school teachers are any better actually.

Have a family member who was home schooled all their life, they are smart but have no social skills at all and as a result constantly falls into the trap of having friends that take advantage. Fortunately, their kid is going to public school.

[Meest]

Anecdotal evidence here but I agree and see what most have said, don't have any positive stories of home schooling. Have family that are close to hardcore Christians and have daughters that they control every aspect of their lives (literally supervise every activity they do). This summer the oldest went to camp and was caught with a boy and was a huge incident that turned into multiple runaway threats. Just from growing up in the public catholic school system, though more free the same stuff happened, lots of rebellion just to be contrary, I think the more you isolate the worse it is. If anything it sends them off to college with no real world social experience and more prone to compensating for lost experience in their mind. Being open and communicating is fine but can't smother children in social or educational situations, you can strike a balance between performing well and having a satisfying childhood.

[Phillip Hone]

Not that anecdotes are totally useless, but I feel like this discussion is suffering from its lack of statistics. If I get the chance, I'm going to see what I can find to contrast the average outcomes of homeschooling with average school outcomes in the US.

Here is what I found after just a little searching, though I'm not sure the link to the full article will work for everyone Still, it is from a peer reviewed source. Trying to weed through all the research from home schooling advocacy groups (which I'm dismissing as biased) is making this a difficult process.

Glancing through it, I noticed that like many test comparing public school and home schooled children, it uses things like the ACT, which I feel home schoolers probably take more selectively than other school kids, according to their academic strength, because they feel less obligated to try and pursue more institutional education. In other words, its selective in a way that makes the home schoolers look better than they really are. I'm also not completely buying the idea that the ACT accurately represents someone's academic achievement level. Still, it seems there is at least some evidence in favor of homeschooling. I would be interested in reading some research that reached the opposite conclusion, if anyone knows of any (not being smarmy here - I am certain that it exists, but simply haven't seen any).

[Serafina]

The main problem with any statistics about homeschooling is that they are almost always voluntarily - giving you the results of homeschoolers who volunteered (therefore selecting for those who are in it for better results, as opposed to isolation/abuse, and for those who get those results). Which is then compared to the whole of public schools - some studies don't even select for factors like income!

It's hard to get around that factor, since in most US-states homeschoolers don't even have to register. But even if they do - since there is no official tests that homeschooled kids have to take or anything, you can only get volunteers. And sure, you could list how many homeschoolers refused to participate in your survey - but obviously, that doesn't give you much of a clue why they did so, much less how the kids are performing.

[Phillip Hone]

Yeah, I really, really wish home schoolers had to take tests in the United States. It would protect them a little from possible educational neglect and also would make these comparisons a lot easier.

[Patroklos]

#5 rings true to me, though probably not for the reasons the author thinks.

To be blunt many of my friends, associates and classmates attended college not because they had any plan that required it or realistic expectations as to what they would do with it, but more because "thats what people my age/class/family history/whatever do." Some of this has to do with jobs that have no real need for a college graduate requiring a degree, but this phenomenon is largely because so many people have degrees that they can make this requirement. In the end they have a crap ton of debt and four years of lost time workplace wise for no gain. I get that your overall chances or success are better with that degree, but some knew they weren't going to do anything with it from the start and didn't so it was basically a 50K plus spin of the roulette wheel for them.

Like anything the decision to go to college should be related to a goal. That goal can simply be to go to college and be educated but thats a luxury choice if it doesn't make sense inside your overall life.

EDIT: The above is a gender nuetral comment

[Lagmonster]

I actually wish that universities would stop offering bullshit degrees; the stereotypical B.A. in Basket Weaving, as it were, should not be a thing. I would rather see the only options after high school be apprenticeship in a trade, entry-level jobs, or a serious, non-trivial, motherfucker of a degree.

I have a personal grudge against the easy temptation for C students who have no fucking clue what to do with themselves, to throw away three or four years on a paper chase, often at a staggeringly enormous long-term financial cost to themselves.

[Raw Shark]

While I value my college experience tremendously, it probably wasn't the best choice for me considering my ultimate career path. Sure, I will probably not get laid that often with women that good-looking ever again in my life, but I was 31 before I paid the loans off (and that with financial aid and an academic scholarship).