Boating help/advice needed nautically

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Shroom, I'm sorry, but when I read your post, I laughed. It really does sound like the plot of a cheesy '80s comedy.

Then I looked at the pictures. Good Christ, man, my uncle has a rivergoing speedboat not much smaller than that. Don't try to sail it home, just ship it as cargo, it might be cheaper, and even if its not, that way nobody has to die.

[Broomstick]

I think you are all missing the point here. Obviously Shroom's dad is one of those people who are always trying to find a new angle to make some money. He wants to sell the boat, not to have it as a hobby. So he wants to do as much as possible by himself so that there would be more profit. If he hires a competent skipper to handle the whole show, it's quite possible that there will be no profit from this operation, because of what he or she charges from doing all that work.

So yes, it might be a bad business idea, but whether anyone can convince him about that is another matter. Plus he already payed for the boat (I presume), so at the very least he will try to get even somehow. If that requires cutting some corners...

Turning a profit requires that the boat remain on top of the water and not on the bottom of the sea. While moving ships is routine, it still requires proper knowledge and skills. It's not a "business idea", it is essential for moving the ship across the ocean. There is no profit in a sunk ship and a dead crew.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Turning a profit requires that the boat remain on top of the water and not on the bottom of the sea. While moving ships is routine, it still requires proper knowledge and skills. It's not a "business idea", it is essential for moving the ship across the ocean. There is no profit in a sunk ship and a dead crew.

Still missing the point. It is a business idea for him... And business usually involves some kind of risk, but he may have underestimated it not knowing much about seafaring. Without knowing how much he payed for it, and how much he can get from it, there is no way of even estimating if it can brought to Philippines safely and profitably. Probably it would better just to ship it as deck cargo like Duchess suggested. Now, I don't know in what kind of terms Shroom is with his father, but if I was him I would at least ask to see the numbers on this deal. I mean, if the profit angle wasn't very solid to begin with, it may be time to look for other options. Like the other thing Duchess suggested.

[Broomstick]

People who entirely disregard safety in their business operations don't stay in business for long. That's all I say.

[Burak Gazan]

My son, dont even think about taking that thing on the high seas; that is something you ship as deck cargo somewhere.

27 years in merchant marine suggesting, Do Not Do This

There are zodiacs that are more seaworthy than this craft

[The Duchess of Zeon]

My main concern is that depending on where in the Philippines the destination is, there would be a major archipelagic journey of hundreds of miles involved in the final delivery, which could make the cost of shipping the little tug as deck cargo prohibitive. If it's just going to Subic bay I assume they could secure passage as deck cargo for the craft, which is the best option to be sure. On the other hand, let's be honest, this is a run from Hong Kong to Subic Bay. If you really think the safety inspectors are going to stop that from happening.... Well, think again. This tug is so small it's out of the range of most safety inspections with the slightest chance of actually being enforced. Like I said, I've sailed on bigger yachts, and they aren't even required to have a trained radio operator until you exceed around 65-feet in length IIRC.

If shroom's father insists on taking her across the South China Sea, or there's simply no deck cargo transport options, you have to consider the wave action (thus the false bow), stability in relation to the false bow (ballasting aft to compensate for the weight), how this will affect the metacentric height, where to put extra fuel tankage... Even accommodations for the crew. Again, I don't want to comment in detail due to liability, except to reiterate that the vessel WILL REQUIRE MODIFICATION to make the journey in any fashion other than as deck cargo. These modifications should be carried out after a survey by a licensed and reputable shipyard in Hong Kong on the design of a bonded marine architect. Said architect may look, laugh, and tell you to ship her as deck cargo (leave this part out and get your father to contact one--he's more likely to accept the cost of shipment if someone like that tells him than his son's asking people on a message board!!!).

[aerius]

There is no profit in a sunk ship and a dead crew.

Of course there is, you just need to take out the appropriate insurance policy and cash it in.
Unfortunately this will make a bunch of lawyers happy, and we can't have that.

[Shroom Man 777]

Thank you, Marina and everyone. My dad is bullheaded, or maybe bullshit headed, and it is hard to make him listen to outside opinion. I think I'm just going to relegate myself to damage control and try to reason with his brain, but it's a very difficult and straining feat that makes my life very miserable.

After this, he's already talking about sending me to Australia or something to get training to use a decompression chamber he bought on ebay.

EDIT:

The boat is uninsured.

[Stark]

have you had your hyperbaric medicine training yet

or is your dad just a fucking moron

[aerius]

After this, he's already talking about sending me to Australia or something to get training to use a decompression chamber he bought on ebay.

Sounds like fun. You should use it as an altitude chamber instead to make yourself fitter by increasing your red blood cell count.

[Shroom Man 777]

have you had your hyperbaric medicine training yet

no

or is your dad just a fucking moron

yes

youarerite

Though he is better suited if he sells that damn thing, which he's trying to. Man.

After this, he's already talking about sending me to Australia or something to get training to use a decompression chamber he bought on ebay.

Sounds like fun. You should use it as an altitude chamber instead to make yourself fitter by increasing your red blood cell count.

Or as a hyperbaric chamber to make cosmetic surgery scars heal faster so womens who got boob jobs' breasts will stop bleeding blood from their milkbags?

[Sarevok]

Hey Shrooms take some photos. Record everything and who knows this voyage could become plot of a cheesy hollywood movie.

[Shroom Man 777]

I am not going in that thing, Sarevokerritch! It has clear glass canopies and I don't want to get killed by spear-wielding mermaids or some shit!

[ShadowDragon8685]

I am not going in that thing, Sarevokerritch! It has clear glass canopies and I don't want to get killed by spear-wielding mermaids or some shit!

That's tritons that wield spears. Mermaids have fingernails that extend into claws on demand.

Or is that only Irish mermaids? I forget...

Anyway, who knows, maybe while you're on a boat you'll be bleeding their breasts instead of getting horribly killed by them?

[Bounty]

Adding to the choir here, but a friend of mine who's third officer on a tanker mailed back and said that's not a ship, it's cargo, and sailing it would be like "driving a lawnmower on a highway".

[The Duchess of Zeon]

If you can do nothing to dissuade him from the nutcasery of this voyage, at least for god's sake and all that's holy get him to at least have a false bow welded on and some stability calculations done by someone who has worked on ships before, has actual design experience and/or training (preferably both, obviously) and some bulwarks as well and make fuel calculations on the assumption of a 50% reserve for a crossing at 75% power from Hong Kong to Subic Bay, okay, Shroom? It's completely possible for the boat to make the journey as-is, but only in perfect weather if nothing goes wrong. Even a relatively minor gale would be a serious threat to that craft right now without modifications to prepare it for the open ocean at the minimum. Note that my recommendations for modifications are nothing more than the equivalent of trying to get a smoker to go from two packs a day to a half a pack, because I know absolutely he's too bullheaded to quit.

[Bottlestein]

^ Again - don't boats have to undergo inspection after submitting a sailing plan - crew or no crew?

[Lusankya]

After this, he's already talking about sending me to Australia or something to get training to use a decompression chamber he bought on ebay.

Here's what you do: agree to go to Australia, but secretly apply for a job and get a working visa instead. This should be easy, because Australia doesn't have enough nuerses. Then fly over on your dad's dime and just stay there making yourself a happy life, seducing the local women and destroying Australian culture, or whatever it is immigrants are supposed to do.

Doesn't that sound more fun than worrying about your dad's stupid ideas?

[Shroom Man 777]

That is the best plan I've heard this year, Lusy-chans!

[aerius]

Then fly over on your dad's dime and just stay there making yourself a happy life, seducing the local women and destroying Australian culture, or whatever it is immigrants are supposed to do.

Collect free welfare and other social security subsidies, if Australia's anything like Canada he can live a nice life on the government's dime. Then he can work cash jobs so he can keep leeching off the government without paying taxes.

[Stuart]

Anyway. I need help. My dad, in his infinite wisdom, purchased a tugboat in Hong Kong for I don't know how many thousand dollars. Now, to bring the tugboat to the Philippines, he wants to recruit a crew but he wants to save money (oh god). Anyway, my dad has no experience at all with nautical stuff except for scuba diving. Now he wants me to research on "what we need to prepare the boat" so that we can "prepare the boat", so when he hires the crew to bring the boat to the Philippines (by sailing it from Hong Kong to Subic Pubic Bay) it can go swimmingly. Then we can something-something and hocus-pocus and we can sell the boat in the Philippines to some sucker enterprising customer.

Just to add another voice to the chorus. Don't do it. Find some reasonable excuse to be anywhere else. This won't go swimmingly, the crew will.

This is a freakin' crazy idea. You are taking a small craft across some of the busiest shipping lanes in the world in a part of the world where there is no effective maritime law enforcement and prone to some very nasty weather. And that's assuming the crew you hire won't slit your throat one dark and stormy night and take the boat for themselves. My guess is that this little project has already been marked down as a potential victim (if you hear of a small craft being renamed "the pension fund" by pirates, that's you).

The description of this as being the plot of a cheesy movie is spot-on but I would class it as a horror film, not a comedy. There was a brief genre of "small craft meets bad guys and regrets it" films in the 1980s. If a hot latina chick who looks like Michelle Rodriguez turns up, applying for the engineers job, run. It will be an omen, she always dies horribly in her films.

Your father does realize that the Philippines builds small craft like this doesn't he? And that the industry is tarriff-protected? he may well find he and the wreckage get cast up on to some deserted beach and, as he gets started on reassembling the splintered wreckage, he gets hit with a thumping great import duty assessment.

So, yeah. Does anyone know where I can get reliable resources on what I would need to prepare if I was preparing a (tug)boat to sail across the sea? Does anyone here have any maritime experience and advice? Because, shit, the only thing vaguely useful thing I know is CPR and the only vaguely useful thing dad knows is scuba diving. So we're about to hire some men to bring our boat to the Philippines and I guess we should know a thing or two about boating and shit before we send these guys to their deaths.

Small craft like this are always carried as deck cargo. Even much larger craft (up to and including corvettes and small frigates) get carried on heavy lift ships. It's much cheaper to do it that way than to sail the ship to its destination.



There is an industry that sails luxury yachts around from place to place so they are ready for their owner's use but that is a small, specialized and very expensive service for idiots with more money than sense. Don't expect to use it and make money.

The best thing you can do for your father is to go out one dark night and put a rock through the bottom of the boat.

[Shroom Man 777]

Thanks Stu. Tariff-protected? Man. That's something we had no idea of. I highly appreciate your heads up since in matters like these, you are the authority.

[Thanas]

I am not going in that thing, Sarevokerritch! It has clear glass canopies and I don't want to get killed by spear-wielding mermaids or some shit!

That's tritons that wield spears. Mermaids have fingernails that extend into claws on demand.

Fail.

There is only one triton and he wields a trident.

[Stuart]

Thanks Stu. Tariff-protected? Man. That's something we had no idea of. I highly appreciate your heads up since in matters like these, you are the authority.

The people to talk to are

Philippine Tarriff Commission
5th Floor, Philippine Heart Center Building,
East Avenue, Diliman 1100 Quezon City,
Metro Manila, PHILIPPINES

Telephone : (+632) 433-5898)
Telefax No: (+632) 921-7960;

Tarriff regulations typically change on an almost daily basis so you need to check with them for the latest rulings. According to the regulations I have, ONLY small craft used for fishing purposes are allowed to enter the Philippines without payment of tax and import duties. You need a certificate issued by the Maritime Industry Authority (MARINA) naming the qualified commercial fishing vessel operator buying the craft prior to bringing the boat into the country. The rules are (at present) covered in Executive Order 209 Annex A B and C. I tried to summarize them but gave up due to their complexity. You need to consult a tax lawyer to find out exactly what hoops you have to jump through. Note that the craft has to be certified as sea-worthy prior to importation.

AFAIK, the import duty is calculated on the basis of so much per tonne of the imported craft's weight.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Bottlestein: " Again - don't boats have to undergo inspection after submitting a sailing plan - crew or no crew?"


No. I honestly don't know what you're smoking, because anyone on the planet can take a deep-ocean yacht out without necessarily filing such a plan, and certainly not undergoing inspection. Inspections are on a time-based basis, not before each sailing; that would be impossible. And craft this small have very limited requirements that must be actually inspected, is usually done annually if in commercial service. Hell, if registered as a private craft, which is I suspect from how half-assed this is is what's happening, and lots of people convert old tugs into motor yachts, there may be virtually no inspection at all.

The world is, quite simply, not as highly regulated as you think.


Stuart: I just assumed anyone in the Philippines with enough money to buy a tugboat had enough money to pay the bribe, too, but it appears not even this part of it was planned out. I've been hoping that if this guy is too pig-headed to suck up the fee for deck cargo transit for it he'll at least take some measures to increase the chances of this not ending in a horrible disaster for someone, but ... This entire thing reeks of a kind of epic stupid that's almost unbelievable.

The problem is that, on the face of it, I suppose some completely uneducated landlubber like Shroom's dad could convince himself. People have sailed around the world in yachts smaller than that, after all, so why shouldn't it work? The complete lack of understanding of what the radically different designs do and have capabilities for wouldn't even be comprehended.