Hugging not allowed

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Quetzalcoatl
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Hugging not allowed

Post by Quetzalcoatl »

I wish I was making this shit up.
Banning Hugs at School
By Lisa Belkin

We teach our children “Good Touch/Bad Touch.” Now preteens in Milford, Conn. are learning “No Touch.”

Local news there reported this weekend that parents at the East Shore Middle School received a letter from Principal Catherine Williams, which said that any touching at all on school grounds — including “hugging” and “horseplay” — could result in “parent conferences, detention, suspension and/or a request for expulsion from school.”

Students have said that they have even been prohibited from “high fiving” classmates in the halls.

The catalyst for the policy — which the school insists has been on the books all along, but which parents and students say is certainly a stricter interpretation than ever before — was an incident earlier this month when a student required treatment in the emergency room after a kick to the groin.

While some parents say they are supportive, others are outraged at what they call an overly broad response to a real problem.

“As a parent, I just don’t agree with it,” Edward Abbazia, whose son Patrick is a 14-year-old eighth grader told the News-Times. “This is going to happen — they’re going to touch each other. My son’s going to physically touch his friend, you know, shake his hand or pat him on the back, and he’s going to get detention and he knows it, but he’s going to do it anyway…the high fives, the hugging.”

In fact Patrick’s parents gave him permission to protest the policy — by going to school on Friday with his arms taped to his sides at the elbows with bright blue duct tape.

Lenore Skenazy is the creator of the blog Free-Range Kids, where she tracks what she sees as the growing tendency of parents (and schools) to swathe children in bubble-wrap. This policy, she wrote yesterday, is the latest example of aiming an elephant gun at a flea.

You can understand the administration’s frustration. A kid was seriously hurt by a kick to the groin — that’s just awful. But why is the response to criminalize all physical contact? Why not criminalize, say, kicks to the groin?

What happened here seems to be the knee-jerk response to any problem these days: Overkill, just like when schools ban tag because a kid could trip, or cupcakes, because a kid could get fat.

(And let’s not talk about the fact that my own son’s own grammar school has banned the word “dice,” lest simply hearing that word encourage kids to take up a life of gambling. The term they have to use now is “number cube.” Ugh! But that’s another story. I think. Or maybe it’s not. Maybe it’s all part of this weird, “Protect children from everything, at any cost, no matter how small the threat and no matter how ridiculous the imposition” society we’re in.)

Which reminds me of a summer camp a friend’s daughter went to, where the lake is formed by a man-made structure which holds the water in. During swim instruction, the campers were told to “swim out to the ‘darn’ and back,” because counselors were not allowed to say the homonym for “dam.”

It also reminds me that I have spent the better part of the past decade telling my sons to “keep your hands to yourselves” because, between these two brothers at least, touches have a way of escalating into thunks. School hallways, and my TV room, would be much more civilized with a “no touching” rule. But then how would any child learn to civilize himself, darn it?
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Re: Hugging not allowed

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"Maybe next time a girl touches his scrote he won't jump and run away."
"Well Quetz doesn't seem like a complete desperate loser, and seems like an OK guy... almost to the point of being a try hard OK guy IMO "How dare you fondle my jewels young lady!"

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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by Eleas »

I'll go for the obvious comment: Demolition Man predicted that sort of ridiculousness sixteen years ago. Of course, back then, the directors seemed to envision it as part of a left-wing agenda.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

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Eleas wrote:I'll go for the obvious comment: Demolition Man predicted that sort of ridiculousness sixteen years ago. Of course, back then, the directors seemed to envision it as part of a left-wing agenda.
What's amusing is that around here and other conservative areas, it's still seen as such.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by salm »

Eleas wrote:I'll go for the obvious comment: Demolition Man predicted that sort of ridiculousness sixteen years ago. Of course, back then, the directors seemed to envision it as part of a left-wing agenda.
Huh? I allways saw it as a suburbian or gated community utopia not necessarily left or right wing. It´s been a while since i´ve seen it though.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

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salm wrote:
Eleas wrote:I'll go for the obvious comment: Demolition Man predicted that sort of ridiculousness sixteen years ago. Of course, back then, the directors seemed to envision it as part of a left-wing agenda.
Huh? I allways saw it as a suburbian or gated community utopia not necessarily left or right wing. It´s been a while since i´ve seen it though.
It makes more sense if you think of them as hippie vegans except with an aversion to touching.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

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General Zod wrote:
salm wrote:
Eleas wrote:I'll go for the obvious comment: Demolition Man predicted that sort of ridiculousness sixteen years ago. Of course, back then, the directors seemed to envision it as part of a left-wing agenda.
Huh? I allways saw it as a suburbian or gated community utopia not necessarily left or right wing. It´s been a while since i´ve seen it though.
It makes more sense if you think of them as hippie vegans except with an aversion to touching.
Yeah, but weren´t the rebels even more exagerated versions of back-to-living-on-trees-hippies? The city dwellers are more ubersoccermomish than veganhippiesque.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

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Its absolutely typical of a particular attitude in schools now, unfortunately. The administrators have been so cowed by lawsuits that they don't have the courage to differentiate between anything anymore, so they just ban everything and set up ironclad punishments for it.

They write up rulebooks, and hide behind them, instead of actually exercising good judgment.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by darkjedi521 »

I grew up in that town. Really doesn't surprise me. The school board in that town is characterized by over reacting to future incidents after they get in trouble for not reacting strongly enough to a specific incident.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by Steve »

If I were a parent with a child going to this school, my response to the letter sent out would be as follows.

I would go to Principal Williams and tell her, point blank, that I regarded her rule as a violation of the civil rights of my child and all his/her schoolmates and thus I would encourage him/her to resist the rule, not obey it. Furthermore, I would inform her that if the rules were enforced as claimed I would immediately turn to all forms of challenges, including legal, to ensure A) her termination from employment in the field of education, B) the removal of the rule from the rulebooks, and C) if necessary, financial restitution to any child harmed by the new rule, and that I would make it my guiding point in life to destroy her administration of the school as it has become a threat to the ability of every student taught there to become a functioning citizen when they grow up.

Maybe such a thing is what's needed in the world now, not just meager protests like taping the arms of a child to symbolize the oppression, but direct and committed resistance. Because sometimes protest is not enough, direct resistance and confrontation is required.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by Elmca »

CarsonPalmer wrote:Its absolutely typical of a particular attitude in schools now, unfortunately. The administrators have been so cowed by lawsuits that they don't have the courage to differentiate between anything anymore, so they just ban everything and set up ironclad punishments for it.

They write up rulebooks, and hide behind them, instead of actually exercising good judgment.
And whose fault is it? The administrators, who have to take time and money to fight lawsuits that they're going to lose if they don't write ironclad rules? Or the parents, who file the ridiculous lawsuits? Or how about the students, who know how to behave, but choose not to, because they know that their moms and dads will fight to keep them from being punished?

I agree, it sucks. It sucks bad. But what are the alternatives?

Ever play D&D with a clever DM who let you get a wish and then fucked you over with it when you didn't cover every possible angle? That's what dealing with students and parents can be like.

So you're faced with two choices: A) make up a super-complicated rule that covers every eventuality while staying fair to everyone and HOPE no one finds a loophole they can fuck you with or B) make up a over-simplified rule and then enforce it selectively, with the option to change that level of enforcement as needed.

I'll repeat: both options suck. But until some parents begin to discipline their children rather than enabling them, its the way we have to go.

Again, if you've got alternatives, I'd love to hear them.

@Steve--your child's civil rights are curtailed when he/she enters a school. And how the fuck would your child need financial restitution from a no-touch rule? I'm not sure how the no-touch rule could hurt your child's finances unless he/she were somehow getting paid for touching or being touched. So put your dick away or set your sights on things that are really fucking with your children, like the new Science Standards in Texas. Your kid's future as a functioning citizen is in doubt because they can't high-five his/her buddies? If that's true, your kid is already fucked.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by CarsonPalmer »

And whose fault is it? The administrators, who have to take time and money to fight lawsuits that they're going to lose if they don't write ironclad rules? Or the parents, who file the ridiculous lawsuits? Or how about the students, who know how to behave, but choose not to, because they know that their moms and dads will fight to keep them from being punished?
I agree, it sucks. It sucks bad. But what are the alternatives?

Ever play D&D with a clever DM who let you get a wish and then fucked you over with it when you didn't cover every possible angle? That's what dealing with students and parents can be like.

So you're faced with two choices: A) make up a super-complicated rule that covers every eventuality while staying fair to everyone and HOPE no one finds a loophole they can fuck you with or B) make up a over-simplified rule and then enforce it selectively, with the option to change that level of enforcement as needed.

I'll repeat: both options suck. But until some parents begin to discipline their children rather than enabling them, its the way we have to go.

Again, if you've got alternatives, I'd love to hear them.[/QUOTE]

I really don't know what the alternatives are. Both my parents are teachers, so I have heard their frustrations. In some ways, it makes me understand why the teachers unions are so hardheaded, because the administrators never take a stand, and always cave, but you're right, there are no alternatives. It just makes me want to tear my hair out sometimes because people either get away with shit, or they get punished draconianly for little offenses.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by Master of Ossus »

Tag--you're it. And I'm suspended.
Elmca wrote:
CarsonPalmer wrote:They write up rulebooks, and hide behind them, instead of actually exercising good judgment.
And whose fault is it? The administrators, who have to take time and money to fight lawsuits that they're going to lose if they don't write ironclad rules? Or the parents, who file the ridiculous lawsuits? Or how about the students, who know how to behave, but choose not to, because they know that their moms and dads will fight to keep them from being punished?

I agree, it sucks. It sucks bad. But what are the alternatives?
What "ridiculous lawsuit" was filed, here? And regardless of whether a lawsuit was filed, who the fuck responds to that lawsuit by banning all forms of physical contact between children? It takes a total idiot to decide that they should respond to an incident of physical violence by threatening kids away from high-fiving each other.
Ever play D&D with a clever DM who let you get a wish and then fucked you over with it when you didn't cover every possible angle? That's what dealing with students and parents can be like.

So you're faced with two choices: A) make up a super-complicated rule that covers every eventuality while staying fair to everyone and HOPE no one finds a loophole they can fuck you with or B) make up a over-simplified rule and then enforce it selectively, with the option to change that level of enforcement as needed.
Nonsense. Every grade school teacher or principal (indeed: every grade schooler) can easily differentiate between kids kicking each other in the groin and kids engaging in harmless forms of physical contact like high-fives and hugs. It is not hard to tell kids that they'll be punished for punching or kicking one another, but not punished for playing tag, nor does it require selective enforcement to do so. This is a complete overreaction by a complete idiot.
I'll repeat: both options suck. But until some parents begin to discipline their children rather than enabling them, its the way we have to go.

Again, if you've got alternatives, I'd love to hear them.
How about tell the kids that if they try to hurt each other then they'll be punished, and instruct teachers to make sure that students who punch or kick one another are to be disciplined but not kids who are playing tag?
@Steve--your child's civil rights are curtailed when he/she enters a school. And how the fuck would your child need financial restitution from a no-touch rule? I'm not sure how the no-touch rule could hurt your child's finances unless he/she were somehow getting paid for touching or being touched. So put your dick away or set your sights on things that are really fucking with your children, like the new Science Standards in Texas. Your kid's future as a functioning citizen is in doubt because they can't high-five his/her buddies? If that's true, your kid is already fucked.
Being trained not to do things like shake hands with other people or responding appropriately to getting pats on the back is potentially very socially damaging. Moreover, while the kids' rights are curtailed on entering school, the restrictions placed on them must still be rationally related to a legitimate public purpose. No such purpose is served by banning all forms of physical contact between students, and a ban on touching is not rationally related to protecting their safety. The school is a school; it's not an NHL All-Star game, and benign forms of physical contact are not dangerous to students.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

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Elmca wrote: @Steve--your child's civil rights are curtailed when he/she enters a school.
A necessary element, yes, but there is such a thing as going too far. Punishing children for any physical contact goes far beyond denying them protection from search and seizure without a court-signed warrant.
And how the fuck would your child need financial restitution from a no-touch rule? I'm not sure how the no-touch rule could hurt your child's finances unless he/she were somehow getting paid for touching or being touched.
.....are you really that fucking dense? It's about punishing the school district for permitting such an insane rule from being declared and enforced in the first place, and frankly about getting money that I could, if I desired, put my kid into a private school of my choice to get out of the prison that the public school had become.
So put your dick away or set your sights on things that are really fucking with your children, like the new Science Standards in Texas.
I'm sure if I lived in Texas I'd be quite concerned with them as well. But this is just as important, as it's effectively turning the primary source of social interaction for children into a demented kind of prison.
Your kid's future as a functioning citizen is in doubt because they can't high-five his/her buddies? If that's true, your kid is already fucked.
You're talking about putting kids into a situation where, day after day, they are forbidden from engaging in things as simple as giving a buddy a pat on the back or playing tag with their friends at recess, where they are put into an environment where the simplest physical contact, perfectly normal acts of social interaction, with their peers would cause them trouble with school administration including punishments. Alone it may not sound like much, but add up this and other rules (or enforcement of rules like it) and you create a prison environment that children are forced to endure as opposed to a place where they can be educated.

Or do you really want a generation to grow up in an education system that emulates re-education camps more than it does actual schools?
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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by Tahlan »

Banning Hugs at School
Local news there reported this weekend that parents at the East Shore Middle School received a letter from Principal Catherine Williams, which said that any touching at all on school grounds — including “hugging” and “horseplay” — could result in “parent conferences, detention, suspension and/or a request for expulsion from school.”
It seems to be a rule promulgated by a principal, and not a school board. I'd like to follow the fall-out of the rule, but I would expect that kids will ultimately be allowed to touch. It's ludicrous to ban high-fiving or handshakes or hugs. A friend falls down during PE, and what, you can't help him/her back up because touching is forbidden. Sheer idiocy.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by Samuel »

You're talking about putting kids into a situation where, day after day, they are forbidden from engaging in things as simple as giving a buddy a pat on the back or playing tag with their friends at recess, where they are put into an environment where the simplest physical contact, perfectly normal acts of social interaction, with their peers would cause them trouble with school administration including punishments. Alone it may not sound like much, but add up this and other rules (or enforcement of rules like it) and you create a prison environment that children are forced to endure as opposed to a place where they can be educated.
I'm pretty sure a lack of physical contact is bad- I know it is when it applies parent to child, but I'm not sure about how much so if it is peers. Of course, that is because no one has been nutty enough to try to test it.
Or do you really want a generation to grow up in an education system that emulates re-education camps more than it does actual schools?
I'm pretty sure the gulags did not enforce the no touching rule. Or any of the death camps for that matter. This is really out there- it sounds like something that occurs when you start handing out power like party favors.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

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Master of Ossus wrote:Tag--you're it. And I'm suspended.
That's not necessarily what will happen. The bog in the OP says that punishments range from:
OP wrote:“parent conferences, detention, suspension and/or a request for expulsion from school.”
Master of Ossus wrote:What "ridiculous lawsuit" was filed, here? And regardless of whether a lawsuit was filed, who the fuck responds to that lawsuit by banning all forms of physical contact between children? It takes a total idiot to decide that they should respond to an incident of physical violence by threatening kids away from high-fiving each other.
In this particular case, none that I know of. However, a slightly more reliable source than a blog, an actual newspaper article on the subject, says:
The Connecticut Post http://www.connpost.com/ci_12003896 wrote:Reading it to mean all forms of touching are punishable is "misinterpretation or a child's interpretation," the principal said, indicating that school staff members make judgment calls about whether certain physical contact is positive or negative. "I'm only concerned about unsafe behaviors."
Nowhere in that quote do I get the idea that students will be suspended for high-fiving.
Master of Ossus wrote:Nonsense. Every grade school teacher or principal (indeed: every grade schooler) can easily differentiate between kids kicking each other in the groin and kids engaging in harmless forms of physical contact like high-fives and hugs. It is not hard to tell kids that they'll be punished for punching or kicking one another, but not punished for playing tag, nor does it require selective enforcement to do so. This is a complete overreaction by a complete idiot.


I'll repeat: both options suck. But until some parents begin to discipline their children rather than enabling them, its the way we have to go.

Again, if you've got alternatives, I'd love to hear them.
How about tell the kids that if they try to hurt each other then they'll be punished, and instruct teachers to make sure that students who punch or kick one another are to be disciplined but not kids who are playing tag?
According to the newspaper article, that appears to be exactly the case here.

To be honest, if I had realized I was responding to a blog rather than a legitimate news source, I probably wouldn't have said anything. Next time, I'll be more careful to check the source of the OP.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

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CarsonPalmer wrote:Its absolutely typical of a particular attitude in schools now, unfortunately. The administrators have been so cowed by lawsuits that they don't have the courage to differentiate between anything anymore, so they just ban everything and set up ironclad punishments for it.

They write up rulebooks, and hide behind them, instead of actually exercising good judgment.
How many of these lawsuits have actually taken place? Is this like the whole scam with medical malpractice insurance premiums and lawsuits where the insurance companies just invented the "skyrocketing cost of medical malpractice insurance" to explain their own skyrocketing premiums?
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Re: Hugging not allowed

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Darth Wong wrote: How many of these lawsuits have actually taken place? Is this like the whole scam with medical malpractice insurance premiums and lawsuits where the insurance companies just invented the "skyrocketing cost of medical malpractice insurance" to explain their own skyrocketing premiums?
I don't know how many lawsuits have taken place, but I do know that every time a parent threatens to call a lawyer, the school folds like a house of cards. At least, that's what happens in the schools my parents teach in. It could be gutless administrators would be gutless without the fear of lawsuits, but whatever it is, nobody wants to use their judgment.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by Solauren »

Don't people realise that vilifying something like this will have the reverse of the desired effect?

You tell kids they can't smoke, and what do they do?

You tell kids they can't touch, and well, what will they do?

Idiots.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by Elmca »

Steve wrote:
Elmca wrote: @Steve--your child's civil rights are curtailed when he/she enters a school.
A necessary element, yes, but there is such a thing as going too far. Punishing children for any physical contact goes far beyond denying them protection from search and seizure without a court-signed warrant.
And how the fuck would your child need financial restitution from a no-touch rule? I'm not sure how the no-touch rule could hurt your child's finances unless he/she were somehow getting paid for touching or being touched.
.....are you really that fucking dense? It's about punishing the school district for permitting such an insane rule from being declared and enforced in the first place, and frankly about getting money that I could, if I desired, put my kid into a private school of my choice to get out of the prison that the public school had become.
So put your dick away or set your sights on things that are really fucking with your children, like the new Science Standards in Texas.
I'm sure if I lived in Texas I'd be quite concerned with them as well. But this is just as important, as it's effectively turning the primary source of social interaction for children into a demented kind of prison.
Your kid's future as a functioning citizen is in doubt because they can't high-five his/her buddies? If that's true, your kid is already fucked.
You're talking about putting kids into a situation where, day after day, they are forbidden from engaging in things as simple as giving a buddy a pat on the back or playing tag with their friends at recess, where they are put into an environment where the simplest physical contact, perfectly normal acts of social interaction, with their peers would cause them trouble with school administration including punishments. Alone it may not sound like much, but add up this and other rules (or enforcement of rules like it) and you create a prison environment that children are forced to endure as opposed to a place where they can be educated.

Or do you really want a generation to grow up in an education system that emulates re-education camps more than it does actual schools?
Rather than line-by-line this, I'll just repeat what I said above. The blog quoted by the OP didn't give the whole story. Two important parts of the story were omitted, which makes this all moot:
The Connecticut Post http://www.connpost.com/ci_12003896 wrote:Williams said the letter simply reminded parents of district-wide rules on student conduct outlined in the middle school student handbook, which bans inappropriate and malicious physical contact.

Reading it to mean all forms of touching are punishable is "misinterpretation or a child's interpretation," the principal said, indicating that school staff members make judgment calls about whether certain physical contact is positive or negative. "I'm only concerned about unsafe behaviors."
In my reply to you, I made assumptions about the policy based on my own experiences, assumptions that were not readily apparent in the OP. Frankly, I never got the impression that this was a zero-tolerance, one-punishment-fits-all policy, so I looked at your response as a huge over-reaction. While I still think it was over the top, I can understand it a bit better in light of the twisted version of the blog gives.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

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"Zero tolerance" strikes again. Instead doing their jobs and judging if the kids actions were right or wrong, they make a blanket rule and punish just about everybody for frivolous bullshit.
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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by The Spartan »

bobalot wrote:"Zero tolerance" strikes again. Instead doing their jobs and judging if the kids actions were right or wrong, they make a blanket rule and punish just about everybody for frivolous bullshit.
Did ya read what Elmca posted?
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Re: Hugging not allowed

Post by bobalot »

The Spartan wrote:
bobalot wrote:"Zero tolerance" strikes again. Instead doing their jobs and judging if the kids actions were right or wrong, they make a blanket rule and punish just about everybody for frivolous bullshit.
Did ya read what Elmca posted?
I just did. I stand corrected.
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