Defending against RPGs, ATGMs

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2005-09-10 01:25pm

There are currently active protection systems in development such as the Russian Arena, Israeli Trophy etc that are designed to destroy an incoming RPG or ATGM before it strikes a vehicle equipped with such a system. How effective are such systems? Have they seen combat yet ? Are they going to become common features future AFVs ? Is it going to greatly reduce the threat RPGs and missiles currently pose to tanks?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-09-10 01:35pm

RPGs can't be stopped by such active defence systems, they only really work effectively with ATGMs which is what they were made for in the first place. RPGs today are typically dealt with by the passive armour, though there is the system being developed by the MoD which uses electrical current to negate the plasma jet of RPGs. The active systems that use ERA are best left for the rounds that will mission kill a tank, which no RPG we currently see in action will do.

Ultimately, the best system will be a solid-state laser in IR or UV that can zap any incoming targets automatically and replace GPMGs for use against infantry. But that's a few years off still.

AMX · Post by **AMX** » 2005-09-10 01:58pm

AV, are you feeling OK?
Because there are a few glaring errors in your post...
Shaped charges don't produce a plasma jet. And active defense systems are not the same as ERA.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2005-09-10 02:17pm

Active Protection Systems have never been used in combat, how well they work is thus unknown. I frankly doubt they work at all well, among other reasons because the frag grenades they fired can't be specifically aimed.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-09-10 02:18pm

AMX wrote:AV, are you feeling OK?
Because there are a few glaring errors in your post...
Shaped charges don't produce a plasma jet. And active defense systems are not the same as ERA.

Eh? The only bit I'd be unsure of is the effectiveness of Shtora against RPGs given they are always fired closer ranged than ATGMs and also far smaller.

The "plasma jet" may be technically inaccurate. It is a very high-temperature molten jet of copper, but plasma jet just came to mind as simpler to put down. As for ERA, Kontakt-5 it is an active system given it locates threats and performs countermeasures. It is most certainly more active than a slab or Chobham or DU on your hull.

AMX · Post by **AMX** » 2005-09-10 03:17pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:As for ERA, Kontakt-5 it is an active system given it locates threats and performs countermeasures. It is most certainly more active than a slab or Chobham or DU on your hull.

But it is not what The Shadow asked about.

AMX · Post by **AMX** » 2005-09-12 10:37am

Uh, hello? Did I accidentally kill the thread?
Anyway...
Here's what KBP Shipunov claims about their Drozd system:

Zone of defence, degree
in azimuth +40
-40
in elevation from -6 to +20
Velocity of antitank munitions under engagement
70-700
Tank protection probability
no less than 0.7

LINKA

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-09-12 11:15am

Like Skim said. Active defence systems haven't seen combat yet, so measuring their effectiveness is a bit hard. Currently is more effective to counter the ATGM/RPG threat by improving tactics, passive armor packages and ERA.

It's hard to tell if these projects are going to see use on the battlefield.
I'd say some forms of active defence will be used in the future.
SHTORA and it's kind are the most likely active systems to be used in combat. Of course I really couldn't know for 100%.

-Gunhead

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-09-12 05:30pm

As far as I'm concerned, ERA is the only real choice given the Drozd-2 APS is something I've read little real results about. ERA is still not passive, so given it does something to combat incoming munitions it can fall in this category. I would think, as I stated, a solid-state diode laser would be far more practical than the rather limited rocket or grenade systems the Russkies have been looking into.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-09-13 04:36pm

Just to correct something in this very short duck in from BRATISLAVA, but Arena can indeed defend agaisnt RPGs, theyre not limited to ATGMs in any way. See Vasiliy Fofanovs video of Arena defeating an SPG-9 round for example; not tooo different from a PG-7 round variant really.

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2005-09-13 04:42pm

What happened to the British system that used plates attached to capacitors inside the armor of an APC to vaporize RPG copper streams once they closed the circut between the plates? It was supposed to be really effective , if I remember right.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-09-13 06:06pm

Seggybop wrote:What happened to the British system that used plates attached to capacitors inside the armor of an APC to vaporize RPG copper streams once they closed the circut between the plates? It was supposed to be really effective , if I remember right.

And I mentioned this, if you read my post. It is still being developed by DSTL.

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2005-09-13 07:19pm

Ah, wasn't sure if you were referring to the same thing.