The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

HIST: Discussions about the last 4000 years of history, give or take a few days.

Moderator: K. A. Pital

User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by MKSheppard »

So I got Decisions of Robert S. McNamara by James M Roherty, written in 1970 from the University of Maryland Libraries.

Most of the book is relatively sparse; but I skimmed it and put together the key tidbits in summarized form for you screwballs. Don't you all just love me?

Okay, basically during his reign, the view of "technological stability" was espoused by Herbert F York and Jerome B Weisner in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. This view held that "technological surprise" isn't a threat to national security and that major breakthroughs aren't to be expected. Basically, they held that efforts to construct a workable ABM system were implausible, and provocative -- that they merely spurred offensive technology onwards.

By the way, McNamara at no time during his tenure as SecDef felt that the USSR had an effective and operational ABM capability.

Certainly this was the case early on in his reign in 1961, but by 1967 and 1968; enough of the ABM-1 system was in place to constitute a thin shield over Western Russia against a few ICBMs.

His support for the Aboveground Test Ban was because he felt that US technical superiority would be prolonged by limiting the USSR to testing in an underground environment, an environment where we had more experience; which would retard their progress towards more efficient weapons.

The cancellation of SKYBOLT appears to have been part of his effort to ensure that there would be no "independent" national deterrents; e.g. other people at the Nuclear Table who upset his nice theory of stability being best served by having only one finger on the nuclear trigger within NATO -- and because the British had centered their entire deterrent on obtaining SKYBOLT, cancelling it staked the heart through the UK deterrent.

However, cancelling it really, really, really pissed off the British -- I've found myself wondering if there are any transcripts of the meeting between Macmillan and Kennedy at Nassau where they hammered out the Polaris agreement.

McNamara used fallacies after fallacies to prevent ABM deployment -- he basically said in 1965:
...there is no system or combination of systems within presently available technology which would permit the deployment now of an anti-ballistic missile defense capable of giving us any reasonable hope of keeping U.S. fatalities below some tens of millions in a major Soviet nuclear attack upon our cities.
Basically; it was "it won't work well enough to be worth spending money on", never mind the fact that losing 10 million is a lot less damaging than losing 50-60 million.

Some more gems (this time from 1966)
the offense still is the key to our entire program . . . Letting the offense lag is suicide. Our continuing research and development work on Nike X assists in keeping the offense from lagging. In preparing experimental defense systems we learn more about penetration aids to our own offensive missiles to foil the enemy defense. That, I think, is a principal value of our Nike X research.
McNamara and the manned bomber is harder to pin down. While he was opposed to systems like the B-70, terminated B-52 production early (congress appropriated money for about 45 more H models, but he refused to release the funds), retired the B-47 fleet early, and terminated B-58 production early, and then phased it out, he did call for 200~ FB-111s in 1966.

I've been able to pin down his strains of thought:

1.) Standardization above all (hail the JSBB - Joint Services Belt Buckle; an idea which was defeated).

2.) Missiles will get through easier than a bomber (and faster, see #4)

3.) Missiles would be cheaper to maintain than a bomber

4.) The Manned Bomber was irrevelant -- calculations done by OSD showed that 75% of the USSR industrial base and 50% of the USSR's population would be destroyed by whatever programmed ICBMs in the US that survived a USSR first strike. Any manned bombers would arrive hours after such a missile strike and their megatonnage would only "bounce the rubble".

With those strains in mind, and when you consider his underlings' view of AMSA -- basically of an aircraft where the pilot didn't do anything except "except to check the gas tanks and punch a few buttons," in the words of Herbert F York, and that the flexibility of manned bombers was essentially irrevelant -- all it meant to was that aircraft could get off the ground before the missiles arrived -- you begin to understand his decisions affecting the bomber fleet.

B-47: The fleet's by this point, over a decade old, and it's been so frankensteined by all the various modifications carried out to them to accomplish their mission, plus the fact that airframe problems are starting to crop up, along with it's limited range makes it an inefficient weapons system. Retiring it frees up a lot of money.

B-52: A capable system; but too Frankensteined with the B/C/D/E/F/G/H models in service. In January 1966; he called for 345 B-52s (C-F models) to be retired by 1971. This would leave just 255 G and H models in service; achieving much needed standardization and commonality.

B-58: Why do we need a plane that can out-climb fighters and out-run enemy defenses at Mach 2 when even at those speeds, ICBMs will have arrived hours earlier and blown the USSR to dust? Eliminating them standardizes the bomber fleet further.

B-70: Huge and enormously wasteful, and would only get to the target after the ICBMs had blown it to dust; and the missile men claimed they would be able to kill it at a reliabul rate.

FB-111: In his mind, while the stretched Strategic TFX was "hotter" than what the requirements of penetrating a USSR blown to dust by ICBMs required; it had commonality with the other USAF and USN TFX models, resulting in cost savings.

So, the idea was to go from

----------------------

B-47 Swarm
B-58 Hustlers
B-52B/C/D/E/F/G/H
B-70A

Four Systems, and tons of subvariants (particularly in -47 and -52 models)

-----------------------------------

To:

--------------------------------

B-52H
FB-111A

Two Systems, one of which shares commonality with F-111A, F-111B, etc.

------------------------------------

Yes; you heard me right, Strange envisioned the FB-111 as a replacement for the B-52B/C/D/E/F/G series. It's mentioned so in the book, and that throws light onto why he wanted 200~ of them.

The book then goes on to cover the CVA/CVAN-67 issue.

The book raises an interesting point about the Navy's conservatism, which led me to check nuclear powered unit order dates.

While the Navy ordered the Nautilus and Seawolf successively in 1951 and 1952; they didn't order mass produced nuclear submarines until the four Skates in 1955, which is one year after Nautilus commissioned incidentally.

Same thing with the nuclear surface fleet; after the order for Long Beach in 1956 and then Bainbridge in 1958, there's no desire for mass production of nuclear surface ships until the Eisenhower Administrations proposed FY62 budget, which appropriated money for seven DLGNs.

Of course, McNamara cancelled all seven upon taking office; but the House added the USS Truxtun, DLGN-35 against his wishes to the budget in May 1961.

Basically, the Navy was taking the "wait and see" approach to nuclear propulsion for each major class of warships, and actually did go on record as opposed to a second nuclear carrier until CVAN-65 had been evaluated throroughly. It's why none of the proposed Enterprise and Long Beach sister ships got laid down, even though they were bandied around in "dream books", and why CVA-66 was conventionally powered.

After the first experience rolled in with CVAN-65 through 1961 and 1962, capped off with it's excellent performance in a near-hot environment during the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Navy did an about face and strongly supported nuclear propulsion for all major combatant ships.

Additionally, by this time, further development had reduced the cost of nuclear propulsion -- while CVAN-65 had eight reactors, the proposed CVAN-67 would have only four.

However, McNamara began to bollix things up, with his proclaimation:
As a general guide, I am interested in achieving the most efficient possible naval forces, defining efficiency as achieving the most beneficial military results for a given expenditure.
In April 1963, the "First Navy" study was given to McNamara. It concluded that "nuclear propulsion does permit a significant increase in the beneficial military results for a given expenditure," and that CVA-67 and all other future major warships should be nuclear powered.

Of course, Strange took that report and shoved it into his desk and ordered another study to be done.

The "Second Navy" study arrived on his desk in September 1963 and was quite detailed and focused on the lifecycle cost differential between oil and nuclear powered task forces. It concluded that there was only a 3% cost differential in favor of the oil burning task force; but the advantages of a nuclear task force were so great as to outweigh the slightly increased cost.

Advantages? Well...in the words of the Navy in 1964:
"a nuclear CVAN-67 is designed to carry ammunition, aircraft fuel, and propulsion fuel for conventional escorts sufficient to deliver at least 60% more airstrikes than a conventional CVA-67 before replenishing."
So what does Strange do?

Why of course he rejects it totally, gins up some supporting data of his own from OSD, and asserts:
"I am absolutely certain of one thing, that the six conventional task forces are superior to five nuclear task forces."
He then continued to reject any further analysis of the CVA(N)-67 issue by the Navy and ordered it to be constructed as a oil-burner in a memo to SecNav Korth on October 9, 1963.

You may be curious as to what data he ginned up with the help of OSD and his cronies.

Well, for the scenario of a high speed run across the Atlantic the Director of Defense Research and Engineering (Mr. Harold Brown) assumed that the conventionally powered carrier had 100% availability and absolutely perfect positioning of underway replenishment ships, keeping the oil-burning CV only 4 hours astern of the CVN after five days.

Alas, Admiral Hayward, who actually did do high speed runs on both a CVN and CV, reported that during his transit of the Atlantic on a CV; that the sea was so rough that underway replenishment wasn't possible, nor could he bring his escorts alongside for refuelling from the carrier. This led to the carrier burning aviation fuel in it's boilers to make it's destination.

As a side note to the CVA(N)-67 issue, while McNamara when he first arrived as SecDef, leaned towards a stunted 29-boat program for POLARIS, he eventually backed the full Eisenhower-era 41-For-Freedom Program.

Why?

This comment by him on nuclear power for CVAN-67 helps explain.
the substitution of a nuclear-powered carrier for the conventional would not strengthen us vis-a-vis to the Soviets [sic], I say this because with the total force we have available we are in our opinion, completely protected against Soviet military and political pressure and we don't need additional force.....

....

The aircraft carrier is not going to help us counter the Soviet submarine fleet. It is the Soviet submarine fleet that we have to be concerned with, not the Soviet surface fleet or not the Soviet forces that an aircraft carrier would attack.....
Basically, he viewed POLARIS as a better way of giving the Navy a Strategic role. In his mind, 41 SSBNs with hundreds of missiles were of greater strategic power than fifteen or so carriers, even if each carrier had a thousand tons of nuclear ordnance in their holds....they still suffered from the same problem that manned bombers did -- they would either fly into defenses that the ballistic missile bypassed, or would arrive hours and hours too late, and would just "bounce the rubble" left over from ICBM and SLBM attacks.

Oh by the way, you'll love his absolute gem of an idea to save money....Amusingly enough, this crazy idea didn't originate at all within the Navy -- read, with ZERO input from the navy -- but was forwarded to SecNav from the Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Systems Analysis).

Strange suggested that the traditional 1-1 relationship between carriers and air wings be changed, and submitted a plan where there would be 15 carriers, but only 12 air wings. He actually went on the record as stating that "significantly more useable combat power" could be obtained under this screwball idea.

What do we do with the extra carriers? Don't worry, he explains it below:
Carriers would normally deploy with less than the maximum complement of aircraft and additional aircraft would be flown to the carriers as needed. In effect, we would be treating the aircraft carrier as a forward floating air base, deploying the aircraft as the situation requires.
Naturally, the Navy thought the "Forward floating airbase" idea was bullshit and didn't take much note of it.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Sidewinder
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5466
Joined: 2005-05-18 10:23pm
Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
Contact:

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Sidewinder »

I'm REALLY curious as to what made McNamara think he had a better idea of the US military's needs and abilities than people who are actually US military leaders (Wikipedia says during WWII, McNamara served in the US Army Air Force Office of Statistical Control, where he reached the rank of Lieutenant Colonel; that means he did NOT see combat).
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
Adrian Laguna
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4736
Joined: 2005-05-18 01:31am

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Adrian Laguna »

Some things I've always wondered about: Why can't Congress just assign the armed forces a budget and let them do whatever they want with it? Why must Congress, for example, tell the Air Force that they are going to procure a specific number of air craft for a specific price? Or the Navy that they'll have this many ships of that class? And why does the SecDef exist, what does he do that Congress and the Joint Chiefs can't?

Way things should run is the government sets strategic objectives, the Generals and Admirals draw-up plans to meet these strategic objectives, the government either shells out the money for them or scales back its ambitions. I fail to see why the government should give two shits as to whether the Air Force likes high or low altitude bombers, the Navy prefers carriers or submarines, or the Army likes swarms of cheap tanks or clumps of expensive tanks.
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by MKSheppard »

Sidewinder wrote:I'm REALLY curious as to what made McNamara think he had a better idea of the US military's needs and abilities than people who are actually US military leaders
FOund this little gem in a book by Phyllis Schafly during the 60's

During Vietnam, we had shortages of .30 and .50 caliber ammunition.

Why?

Image
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Samuel »

:banghead:

How the HELL did the man get the post? I don't know anything about the military, but it appears I found someone who knows even less.
Adrian Laguna wrote:Some things I've always wondered about: Why can't Congress just assign the armed forces a budget and let them do whatever they want with it? Why must Congress, for example, tell the Air Force that they are going to procure a specific number of air craft for a specific price? Or the Navy that they'll have this many ships of that class? And why does the SecDef exist, what does he do that Congress and the Joint Chiefs can't?

Way things should run is the government sets strategic objectives, the Generals and Admirals draw-up plans to meet these strategic objectives, the government either shells out the money for them or scales back its ambitions. I fail to see why the government should give two shits as to whether the Air Force likes high or low altitude bombers, the Navy prefers carriers or submarines, or the Army likes swarms of cheap tanks or clumps of expensive tanks.
Pork. Congress needs to be able to make expensive projects so they can give their constituents jobs.
User avatar
Crayz9000
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 7329
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:39pm
Location: Improbably superpositioned
Contact:

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Crayz9000 »

Jesus H Christ. If this guy isn't deserving of his own, special spot in the deepest part of Hell, I don't know who is.
A Tribute to Stupidity: The Robert Scott Anderson Archive (currently offline)
John Hansen - Slightly Insane Bounty Hunter - ASVS Vets' Assoc. Class of 2000
HAB Cryptanalyst | WG - Intergalactic Alliance and Spoof Author | BotM | Cybertron | SCEF
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Samuel »

Crayz9000 wrote:Jesus H Christ. If this guy isn't deserving of his own, special spot in the deepest part of Hell, I don't know who is.
Hey, read From the Jaws of Victory if you wish to see more true incompetance.
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37389
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Sea Skimmer »

The US ammo situation in Vietnam was so bad that at one point we had to buy back over 25,000 iron bombs we had sold to scrap companies in Germany and the Netherlands. The cost was six or seven times what we’d been paid. Course, today the US military has moved far beyond shedding itself of even basic ammo manufacturing, they now wants to close a number of large ammo dumps we have in the empty desert of the South West in favor of expanding a couple smaller dumps which are much closer to major populations. This will theoretically save some tiny amount of money.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

I'm more curious as to why the President didn't check on McNamara's dealings. Why did the President allow things as they are?
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
Guardsman Bass
Cowardly Codfish
Posts: 9281
Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I'm more curious as to why the President didn't check on McNamara's dealings. Why did the President allow things as they are?
Wasn't McNamara pretty good at telling the Presidents he worked for (Kennedy and Johnson) exactly what they wanted to hear?
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard


"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
User avatar
Ma Deuce
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4359
Joined: 2004-02-02 03:22pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Ma Deuce »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I'm more curious as to why the President didn't check on McNamara's dealings. Why did the President allow things as they are?
I'm unsure of the specifics of his relationship to Johnson, but in the Kennedy administration, McNamera's actions were exactly what JFK wanted.
Image
The M2HB: The Greatest Machinegun Ever Made.
HAB: Crew-Served Weapons Specialist


"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke

"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --J.S. Mill
User avatar
Count Chocula
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1821
Joined: 2008-08-19 01:34pm
Location: You've asked me for my sacrifice, and I am winter born

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Count Chocula »

Just a glance at some of his other fuckuperies is stunning, but one thing I did know about him damned him forever in my mind - the F-111 program. He'd cancelled the B-58 and B-70 programs, leaving the upcoming TFX as the only slated high-speed manned nuclear delivery system at SAC's disposal. IIRC, the F-105 was not nuclear capable and didn't have the legs for deep strike. What does Strange do? He requires that the same airframe that is designed to deliver nukes over a long distance, in the face of air defense, also be light enough and small enough to launch from a carrier! The man was obviously better at addition and subtraction than physics. The result was a wonderful plane that was never built in the numbers it should have been and was rejected by the Navy after millions of wasted dollars.
Image
The only people who were safe were the legion; after one of their AT-ATs got painted dayglo pink with scarlet go faster stripes, they identified the perpetrators and exacted revenge. - Eleventh Century Remnant

Lord Monckton is my heeerrooo

"Yeah, well, fuck them. I never said I liked the Moros." - Shroom Man 777
User avatar
Sidewinder
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5466
Joined: 2005-05-18 10:23pm
Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
Contact:

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Sidewinder »

Count Chocula wrote:F-105 was not nuclear capable and didn't have the legs for deep strike.
The F-105 IS nuclear capable.
What does Strange do? He requires that the same airframe that is designed to deliver nukes over a long distance, in the face of air defense, also be light enough and small enough to launch from a carrier! The man was obviously better at addition and subtraction than physics.
Even then, McNamara fucks up.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-111]Wiki[/url] (I know, but it's better than nothing) wrote:In June 1961, Secretary McNamara ordered the go ahead on TFX despite Air Force and the Navy efforts to keep their programs separate.[5] The USAF and the Navy could only agree on swing-wing, two seat, twin engine design features. The USAF wanted a tandem seat aircraft for low level penetration, while the Navy wanted a shorter, high altitude interceptor with side by side seating.[4] Also, the USAF wanted the aircraft designed for 7.33 g with Mach 2.5 speed at altitude and Mach 1.2 speed at low level. The Navy had less strenuous requirements of 6 g with Mach 2 speed at altitude and high subsonic speed (approx. Mach 0.9) at low level.[4][6] So McNamara developed a basic set of requirements for TFX and ordered the Air Force on 1 September 1961 to develop it.
The worst part is the US Navy ALREADY had a plane that could satisfy the US Air Force's requirements for a deep strike aircraft, i.e., the A-5 Vigilante. Instead of ordering the Air Force to order an A-5 variant with a working weapon system, e.g., one carrying nuclear weapons semi-recessed in the lower fuselage (the A-5 had a linear bomb bay between the engines, which ejected nukes backwards for toss bombing, but the bombs tended to drift behind the A-5 and make point-of-impact unpredictable), he forced the Air Force to spend hundreds of millions in a futile attempt to transform a medium bomber into a carrier-borne intercepter.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37389
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Sea Skimmer »

The T in TFX is for Tactical… and the whole designator ‘TFX’ was part of the problem. The original 1960 Air Force specs called it Future Tactical Strike Fighter. At some point this was changed to Tactical Fighter Experimental or TFX. The aircraft by all rights should have started under the Attack designator given the way the design was pushed in that direction, having started out as a real fighter back in 1958, and its not unreasonable to assume that had this been done McNamara wouldn’t have been nuts enough to merge it with another fighter program. One should also keep in mind that at the time this decision was made, the USN requirements for Future Air Defence Fighters were largely undefined, and the navy had only just canceled the F6F Missilier which made the supersonic F-111B look downright awesome. Also keep in mind that at this point people thought F-111 would be about a 55,000lb aircraft, lighter then a fully loaded F-15 or F-14, not the 100,000lb plane it turned out to be.

TFX was not intended for a strategic mission in design requirements, but SAC its self actually began studying it as the basis for a future bomber at an early point. These studies initially assumed the aircraft would be stretched, and would use three engines, or else two much larger engines. After a while it became apparent that stretching was largely pointless, no amount of modification would give it true strategic range but it would vastly increase cost. Later the massive escalations of F-111 weight would invalidate the logic behind this, but the decision to go for an FB-111 was made before all the growth was apparent. Now that SAC had determined a stock scale F-111 had value as a bomber… it didn’t take long for McNamara to seize on it as a replacement for heavy bombers, not the supplement SAC wanted.

As for numbers, we got plenty enough of the things, about 530 for the USAF, but the real problem was production was split over five different new built models. Production of three of those versions was less then 100 planes apiece. This created endless maintenance and serviceability problems since they had quite major differences, and much of it is the USAFs own fault. Even the tiny run of FB-111s wasn’t totally Stranges fault, he allocated money to buy 263 of the things at estimated costs, but costs inflated so much that money only sufficed to get 76 of them. Further funding could have been provided, but it all went into B-1A… only to have Carter kill that and revive talk of a stretched FB-111, in the form of FB-111H which was no less then 50% heavier.

If the USAF had its act together on knowing what it really wanted, and hadn’t made all sorts of unrealistic projections then we could have gotten a true multirole plane like the F-15E (not as good of course, but most of the capability) in the same timeframe. The problume was the USAF was stuck between generations in thinking, and F-111 had features of the huge mach 3 era planes as well as newer subsonic oriented planes blended together and it just didnt work well. In short McNamara made it worse, but F-111 was a screwed up program from day one.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37389
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Sea Skimmer »

As for A-5, no, that wouldn’t have worked from a 1960-61 perspective. You’d have to totally redesign the plane with an internal bomb bay for it to be remotely viable, and even then it just cannot support the external payloads the USAF wanted for TFX. It can’t meet the speed, range or ceiling requirements either, nor is it STOL. It also was only produced in small numbers so its not like it wins on economy of scale either. This was also simply still the era of rapid aeronautical advancement, new and better planes came out every month, not every ten years like they do today. Investing the future of air force tactical strike in a design dating back to 1955 that needs a total redesign to work at all could not possibly be acceptable.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by MKSheppard »

Guardsman Bass wrote:Wasn't McNamara pretty good at telling the Presidents he worked for (Kennedy and Johnson) exactly what they wanted to hear?
Actually, he was stymed at a few points. I found this tidbit in a book titled "Shutting Down the Cold War" about military base closures:
During the periodic defense budget declines since 1945, the military sought to reduce overhead expenses by cutting back on its base infrastructure. But those efforts were consistently resisted by political leaders who feared voter retribution. When, for example, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara wanted to close the Boston Naval Shipyard in the 1960s, he was reminded by President Kennedy that the workers there would do two things in response: draw their first unemployment check and vote Republican in the next election. Since Democratic House Speaker John McCormick then represented the district, Kennedy withdrew the shipyard from consideration.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10649
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Elfdart »

MKSheppard wrote:
FOund this little gem in a book by Phyllis Schafly during the 60's

During Vietnam, we had shortages of .30 and .50 caliber ammunition.

Why?
Since when is Phyllis Schlafly a credible source about military issues? Or anything else for that matter? The woman is a lunatic who makes Caribou Barbie look like Hillary Clinton.
Image
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12267
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Surlethe »

Goddamnit, Elfdart, you beat me to it. What the hell is Shep doing reading Schlafly, anyway?

Anyway, my chief thought about Shep's post:
Shep wrote:1.) Standardization above all (hail the JSBB - Joint Services Belt Buckle; an idea which was defeated).

2.) Missiles will get through easier than a bomber (and faster, see #4)

3.) Missiles would be cheaper to maintain than a bomber

4.) The Manned Bomber was irrevelant -- calculations done by OSD showed that 75% of the USSR industrial base and 50% of the USSR's population would be destroyed by whatever programmed ICBMs in the US that survived a USSR first strike. Any manned bombers would arrive hours after such a missile strike and their megatonnage would only "bounce the rubble".

With those strains in mind, and when you consider his underlings' view of AMSA -- basically of an aircraft where the pilot didn't do anything except "except to check the gas tanks and punch a few buttons," in the words of Herbert F York, and that the flexibility of manned bombers was essentially irrevelant -- all it meant to was that aircraft could get off the ground before the missiles arrived -- you begin to understand his decisions affecting the bomber fleet.
McNamara's reasoning seems sound enough, granted those premises. I guess what he overlooks is twofold: the need for flexibility, and the inevitable advent of ABM. If one grants that MAD must occur and that ABM will not happen, McNamara's reasoning looks sound.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by K. A. Pital »

Inevitable advent of ABM wasn't so "inevitable" when it was easily curtailed by a political treaty between two great powers :lol: which resulted in local ABM systems in the US and USSR, but no gigantic pan-encompassing shield since foreign territory, space and sea based ABM elements were banned and somehow neither nation really attempted to do it in earnest while the treaty was in effect.

Still, we're here at the beginnings of ABM almost 50 years after McNamara's decisions, aren't we?
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Sidewinder
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5466
Joined: 2005-05-18 10:23pm
Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
Contact:

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Sidewinder »

Stas Bush wrote:Still, we're here at the beginnings of ABM almost 50 years after McNamara's decisions, aren't we?
It certainly helped George W. Bush that unlike the USSR, whose government leaders were somewhat predictable and motivated to NOT start a nuclear war and test how assured MAD is, Iran, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, North Korea, and Pakistan have raving lunatics in influential positions. Yes, Ahmadinejad is a figurehead, but how many Americans are well-informed enough to know this?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by K. A. Pital »

I merely mentioned that McNamara's approach was good enough for half a damn century, and the US consensus at the time did nothing to predict the downfall of the USSR (which itself was an event which largely hinged upon political perturbations, the USSR could have reformed somewhere in the 1970s or 1980s and weathered the 1990s intact, meaning the ABM treaty would last even longer).

The "inevitability" of ABM becoming universal doesn't seem to have applied at all for 50 years, and we are here only at the starting point since the old world order (two superpowers, two poles of control) fell apart, which was by no means guaranteed or even assumed by the US strategic analysts, neither by the analysts of the other side (USSR/Russia).
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
The Grim Squeaker
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10314
Joined: 2005-06-01 01:44am
Location: A different time-space Continuum
Contact:

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Sidewinder wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:Still, we're here at the beginnings of ABM almost 50 years after McNamara's decisions, aren't we?
It certainly helped George W. Bush that unlike the USSR, whose government leaders were somewhat predictable and motivated to NOT start a nuclear war and test how assured MAD is, Iran, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, North Korea, and Pakistan have raving lunatics in influential positions. Yes, Ahmadinejad is a figurehead, but how many Americans are well-informed enough to know this?
Regardless of Ahmadinejad not having any real power compared to the Supreme Ayatollah , how many people would be calmer if told that the power isn't with the (sorta, kind of) "elected" President, but with a secretive council of religious clerics living in the mountains and their strongholds with a religious cleric leader chosen for life having absolute power over the nation with a large religious fanatical military loyal directly to Islam/himself?
Photography
Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
User avatar
Sidewinder
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5466
Joined: 2005-05-18 10:23pm
Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
Contact:

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by Sidewinder »

DEATH wrote:Regardless of Ahmadinejad not having any real power compared to the Supreme Ayatollah , how many people would be calmer if told that the power isn't with the (sorta, kind of) "elected" President, but with a secretive council of religious clerics living in the mountains and their strongholds with a religious cleric leader chosen for life having absolute power over the nation with a large religious fanatical military loyal directly to Islam/himself?
The problem is little is known about the Supreme Ayatollah. He might be a sane and intelligent man who knows picking a fight with the US is a lose-lose situation, i.e., even if Iran defeats the US military, it will have suffered such death and destruction that this "victory" is indistinguishable from defeat. Or he might be a raving lunatic who thinks dying in a nuclear attack will guarantee him a place at Allah's right hand in Paradise, and 72 houri. Who knows? Not enough people to vote a pro-war president out of power.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by MKSheppard »

Elfdart wrote:Since when is Phyllis Schlafly a credible source about military issues? Or anything else for that matter? The woman is a lunatic who makes Caribou Barbie look like Hillary Clinton.
Normally, I would never buy any of her books; but this one was co-written with RADM Chester Ward (Ret), and it offers an interesting look back into the sixties. Most of the book is crap, yes; but there are gems in it like that excerpt I posted. They provide links to events which have long since been forgotten.

For example, did you know that Congress passed a law forbidding the retirement of major weapons systems unless Congress was in session and had it explained to them? That was in response to Strange taking the sneaky trick of announcing major arms systems cuts such as retiring the B-58, cutting the B-52 fleet etc while congress was out of session.

Other things are hilarious, but offer an insight to the times, like the threat of orbiting commie 3 gigaton nuclear weapons :shock:
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: The Decisions of Robert S McNamara (Book Summary)

Post by K. A. Pital »

MKSheppard wrote:Other things are hilarious, but offer an insight to the times, like the threat of orbiting commie 3 gigaton nuclear weapons...
Which were swiftly banned. Actually another place where a ban really stopped the technology from occuring period (so far, may rise again in the future of course). Aside from some light flirt with FOBS, the project stalled and never came to fruition despite extreme usefulness and extremely short reaction time for any probable enemy. :(
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
Post Reply