"White" Slaves

[Kitsune]

This is a US Civil War question

I was discussing with a coworker about the reasons behind the US Civil War.
I just watched a multi-part lecture on DVD from the University of Virginia.
The lecture indicated that when it all comes down to it, when you look at the writings of the founders of the Confederation at the time it was formed (not written later) , that it was slavery that the Confederation broke away.

Of course, trying to convince somebody who sympathizes with the Confederate side is an uphill battle.

He brought up a statement that there were Caucasian slaves around that time. Were there any that were not descendants from slaves and who had at least some "Black" heritage?

[Broomstick]

He might be referring to indentured servants.

I find there is a lot of confusion regarding the distinctions between indentured servants and slaves in the US system. Originally, imported Africans were legally indentured servants, and were criminals transported to the colonies from Britain (one of my husband's ancestors came to the colonies as a servant indentured for life, which isn't that different from slavery for the individual although the distinction could certainly be important to potential offspring). There is a tendency among the ignorant to conflate indentured servants with slaves, which is usually where this "white slavery" issue comes from in regards to the antebellum US.

[Samuel]

His rebuttal doesn't affect your argument- you are arguing slavery is the cause and he is saying that they had white slaves. If you were arguing racism, that might be a rebuttal, but as it is, it is totally unrelated to your point.

Mention the CSA constitution- specifically the differances between it and the US constitution.

I believe an important distinction between slavery and indentured servitude was that indentured servant's children were free.

[Kitsune]

The three things I remember quickly is
1. Guarantees slavery but no overseas slavery trade (hoping to get Britain on their side)
2. States once they join the Confederation do not have the right to succeed
3. President has a line item veto but only has a single six year term.

[Samuel]

Here is a copy:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp

Wiki also has changes from the US constitution- I know it isn't a valid source, but this is mostly minor rewrites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederat ... nstitution

Of course, the article you are looking for is this:
Article 1, section 8,
(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

1. Guarantees slavery but no overseas slavery trade (hoping to get Britain on their side)

That and two of the states in the Union at the time were heavily invested in the domestic slave trade. It was a carrot to get them to join the Confederacy.

The constitution also had references to God, unlike the original.

[Junghalli]

Even if white slavery per se wasn't considered kosher you could easily have had phenotypically Caucasian slaves who were legally considered black, thanks to the one-eighths rule. Remember, one-eights rule meant all you needed was a single black great-grandparent and you were boned.

[Elfdart]

That's true. Contrary to her depiction in bad movies, Sally Hemmings didn't look "black". She had one black grandparent and was the half-sister of Thomas Jefferson's wife, Martha. People who met Sally assumed (rightly) she was Mrs. Jefferson's sister since the two looked so much alike (and is a likely reason Thomas Jefferson was drawn to her in the first place).

I doubt Hemmings' case was the only one.

[Broomstick]

One eighth rule? Hogwash - any black ancestry and you were black, no matter how white you looked. It's called the "one drop rule". It's just that anything more dilute than 1/8 and you could probably pass for white, and a lot of people did.

[The Vortex Empire]

I'm not sure if it was still going on at the time, but I know that England in the colonial period had slavery of the Irish going on, to the scale where Irelands population went from 1,500,000 to 600,000 in the space of a decade. These weren't indentured servants, these were forcibly removed and were slaves for life.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I'm not sure if it was still going on at the time, but I know that England in the colonial period had slavery of the Irish going on, to the scale where Irelands population went from 1,500,000 to 600,000 in the space of a decade. These weren't indentured servants, these were forcibly removed and were slaves for life.

Where are you getting this information? I've never seen Ireland's population listed as below one million as far back as 1500. Ireland during the colonial period sometimes had a population higher than it was for most of the 20th century! The only major drop I've ever seen was in the mid-late 19th century, when the population plummeted from 8m to 4m, but that was because of famine and emigration, not slavery.

[The Vortex Empire]

Where are you getting this information? I've never seen Ireland's population listed as below one million as far back as 1500. Ireland during the colonial period sometimes had a population higher than it was for most of the 20th century! The only major drop I've ever seen was in the mid-late 19th century, when the population plummeted from 8m to 4m, but that was because of famine and emigration, not slavery.

Link

In the 12 year period during and following the Confederation revolt, from 1641 to 1652, over 550,000 Irish were killed by the English and 300,000 were sold as slaves, as the Irish population of Ireland fell from 1,466,000 to 616,000. Banished soldiers were not allowed to take their wives and children with them, and naturally, the same for those sold as slaves. The result was a growing population of homeless women and children, who being a public nuisance, were likewise rounded up and sold. But the worse was yet to come.

[Kitsune]

That's true. Contrary to her depiction in bad movies, Sally Hemmings didn't look "black". She had one black grandparent and was the half-sister of Thomas Jefferson's wife, Martha. People who met Sally assumed (rightly) she was Mrs. Jefferson's sister since the two looked so much alike (and is a likely reason Thomas Jefferson was drawn to her in the first place).

I doubt Hemmings' case was the only one.

Abraham Lincoln talked about the children of the House slaves looking like their master.
I don't believe this is what he was referring to....I work with him tomorrow so will have to try to find out exactly what he meant though

[Samuel]

In the 12 year period during and following the Confederation revolt, from 1641 to 1652, over 550,000 Irish were killed by the English and 300,000 were sold as slaves, as the Irish population of Ireland fell from 1,466,000 to 616,000. Banished soldiers were not allowed to take their wives and children with them, and naturally, the same for those sold as slaves. The result was a growing population of homeless women and children, who being a public nuisance, were likewise rounded up and sold. But the worse was yet to come.

I remember this being mentioned in the 1632 series- however they whitewash it. They do that alot- why I stopped reading the series.

The English anti-Indian tactics evolved in Ireland, didn't they?

On topic, has he explained how on Earth racism is relevant to the slavery argument? The two are connected, but one is not necesary to prove the other.

[Kitsune]

Talked with him today, it appears that he was talking about indentured servants not slaves

[Kitsune]

Slight subject change......

From what you read, does Robert E Lee believe in slavery. Has anybody ready any writing from him at the time, not from after the war.

[Samuel]

http://www.leearchive.info/rel/index.html

Robert E. Lee's Opinion Regarding Slavery
This letter was written by Lee in response to a speech given by then President Pierce.
Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:

I was much pleased the with President's message. His views of the systematic and progressive efforts of certain people at the North to interfere with and change the domestic institutions of the South are truthfully and faithfully expressed. The consequences of their plans and purposes are also clearly set forth. These people must be aware that their object is both unlawful and foreign to them and to their duty, and that this institution, for which they are irresponsible and non-accountable, can only be changed by them through the agency of a civil and servile war. There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist! While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day. Although the abolitionist must know this, must know that he has neither the right not the power of operating, except by moral means; that to benefit the slave he must not excite angry feelings in the master; that, although he may not approve the mode by which Providence accomplishes its purpose, the results will be the same; and that the reason he gives for interference in matters he has no concern with, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbor, -still, I fear he will persevere in his evil course. . . . Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom have always proved the most intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others?

More here:

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundat ... lavery.htm

[Elfdart]

Lee inherited almost 200 slaves from his father-in-law, who requested that they be freed within five years of his death. Lee freed them after five years, but not before renting them out to others and having runaways whipped.

[Samuel]

Elfdart sumed it up perfectly. The man owned slaves and freed them when he promised. He showed little appreciation of the fact they were other human beings and treated the issue like it was for brownie points. He had the classic "sophisticated" view.

Basically, a sanctimonious bastard.