Russian Land Battleship, True or False?

[Crossroads Inc.]

A friend recently sent me the following link detailing the history of an hounest to god LAND BATTLESHIP forcibly created by Stalin during WWII to defend Russia. While the story seems real, theres no actual photos of the monster and a part of me can't believe it existed and I never heard of it before.

[Ma Deuce]

I've seen this before many times, and I can say with absolute certainty that it is fake; nothing more than a kitbash model. Pretty amusing, though.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Russians are very analytical, pragmatic and practical. Unlike Hitler and his penchant for stupid goddamn vengeance weapons. I haven't heard of any Soviet equivalents to Hitler's superweapons. Did the Russians have any at all?

[Sidewinder]

I originally thought it referred to ACTUAL attempts to build a land battleship, like the T-35. Although the KV-VI turned out to be a kitbash, I saved the file because it was so damn funny.

I haven't heard of any Soviet equivalents to Hitler's superweapons.

I'm not sure if this qualifies, but...

Plod 456 Whale Bomber, u.s.s.r., 1941

The besieged Soviet Union faced starvation in the dark days of late 1941; one desperate hope was whale meat. The Plod was designed and built in six weeks to spot and harpoon the great beasts, and for the next 18 months Plods plied the Black Sea in search of prey. Then-scandal. It was found that no whales had ever existed in the Black Sea. The Plod's designer vanished. Teaching of marine biology was forbidden. Whale exhibits were removed from museums, and it was not until 1972 that the Black Sea reappeared on maps of the Soviet Union. The whale is depicted as a mythical beast in Russian classrooms even today, and the Plod was so utterly erased from the annals of Soviet aviation that a longstanding suit before the World Court at The Hague by Jane's All the World's Aircraft, intended to force the files open, was recently abandoned.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Soviets did do some prewar studies of tanks as large as 1000 tons with eight turrets, several of which would hold 152mm guns, but few details have emerged at least so far as English language sources are concerned. Stas might know otherwise. In general they are thought to have been intended only as paper exercises, the objective of creating super heavy breakthrough tanks which could disrupt an entire enemy front, paving the way for medium and light tanks to accomplish the deep battle. The war with Finland showed that multi turreted tanks sucked, something the designers had pretty much already figured out, thus the retreat to two turrets on 1938/39 model T-100/SMK, and so the Russians turned towards single turret vehicles with very heavy armor. That produced the KV-1 and then JS-2.

The heaviest tank I’m aware of Russia actually building was the IS-7 prototype, which weighed 68 metric tons. The largest paper tanks which appear to have been serious propositions were those of the KV-4 series, which ranged from about 80-107 metric tons with one or two turrets.

The Russians are very analytical, pragmatic and practical. Unlike Hitler and his penchant for stupid goddamn vengeance weapons. I haven't heard of any Soviet equivalents to Hitler's superweapons. Did the Russians have any at all?

Everyone had a laundry bag full of over the top and secret weapons, it’s just that no one else went quite so far as Hitler did by actually mass producing the V-2 (the V-1 has merit). Most of the other Nazi wonder waffen didn’t really waste that many resources in comparison, and often just existed to keep the designers busy and off the Russian front. .

I
I'm not sure if this qualifies, but...

Plod 456 Whale Bomber, u.s.s.r., 1941

Its blatantly a made up joke, so no, it doesn’t qualify. A bit poorly research joke too since the Black Sea does in fact have cetaceans, abet only dolphins. The USSR extensively harvested them for food too, and in combination with Turkish efforts the things were nearly driven to extinction.

[K. A. Pital]

To add a little to Skimmer's most excellent summary, Grotte (the guy who designed the infamous P-1000 "Ratte" tank) travelled to the USSR in March 1930s to take part in the superheavy tank design competition.

The Soviet specialists considered Grotte's projects, but rejected it in favour of lighter domestic designs (which later resulted in the T-35, T-100/SMK). Designs created prior to Grotte's influence were the 1929 projects made for the UMM RKKA "assault tank" competition for a tank with a mass of 60-80 tons. The VAMM (military academy of motorization) project of an 80-ton tank was considered good but impossible for the Soviet industry. The OGPU motorization department's project of a 75-80 ton tank was considered a failure.

Grotte's projects were the 1000 ton tank (later "Ratte", 3 or 6 turrets, 2х304mm guns, 4х152mm guns, 4х76mm guns, 2х45guns), TG-VI (70-75 tons) and it's successor project T-42 (100 tons, 1х107mm gun, 1х76mm gun, 1х45mm gun in three turrets).

Soviet engineers proposed the following alternative designs: engineer Astrov's TP-1 (75-80 tons, one 152mm gun), engineers Barykov and Syachintov's T-39 (90 tons, 4 turrets with 45mm, 76mm, 107mm и 152mm guns). The T-39 was to have a crew of 12, and gun armament could have had 4x107 mm or 1x152mm and 2x107mm guns, 2x45m, 2-4 machineguns and a flamethrower. A 1200 hp engine would propel the tank at 24-33 kph.

Another tank which participated in the design competition was the 70-ton tank designed by italian company "Ansaldo", but I know nothing about it.

10:1 wooden models of the T-39, which won the competition, were made. However, by the time the T-39 design was perfected, the T-35 5-turret tank was already put in production. The T-39's production was stopped.

But in 1933, after Grote's "1000 ton" tank was decisively rejected, the UMM suddenly offers a new competition for a 500-600 ton tank. VAMM NIO under M.V. Danchenko develops a project of a 500-ton tank armed with 2x107mm, 2x76mm and 2x45-mm guns, 4-12 machineguns, 3 flamethrowers and a mortar, with a 60 man crew A 6000 h.p. engine was considered to provide a speed of 30 kph. This was the first domestic Soviet design that could be truly considered a "land battleship".

Another Soviet "land battleship" design was a "combined" 300-ton tank, proposed in 1934 by a Leningrad engineer Troyanov. The tank was to have 2x1500 h.p. steam turbines and two chassis. The platform inbetween the huge tracks had a turret with a 203,2 mm mortar, and each track was to have a 152-mm turret. The tank could be put on railway tracks and thus become an armored train.

Those were paper only. Not even models were considered. Superheavy tanks made a comeback after 1940. False reports that Germany had 60-80 ton tanks prompted a new brainstorm. After the KV-1 tank was accepted for the army, SKB-2 of the Kirov factory in Leningrad was led by J.Y. Kotin. A new family of superheavy KV-4 and KV-5 tanks was considered. They were to be made before October of 1941.

Kotin offered a competition to his engineers, with more than 20 projects participating. Mass ranged from 82,5 to 107 tons. Object 225 (the KV-5) had taken the project of KV-4 made by N.V Zeiz, who followed to make a 100 ton KV-5 project. To put the 107-mm gun, the turret was made high, while the tank was slim enough to fit on a railway carriage. Due to a lack of a 1200 h.p. engine, two 600 h.p. engines were to be used. The final works on the tank were abandoned after the Kirov factory evacuated to Chelaybinsk from Leningrad after august 1941.

Parallel to the KV projects, in 1940 constuctros Popov and Nuhman proposed a family of three-turreted "land battleships" of the VL (Vladimir Lenin) series with a mass of 260 to 460 tons and a 15-man crew. Main armament - 130-mm or 305-mm naval guns, auxillaries - two 76-mm guns. Three 800-hp locomotive diesels were to be used. Those were rejected even during draft project phase. A T-103 tank project with a single B-13 130-mm naval gun was a more modest machine.

[K. A. Pital]

Some more data and pictures on Soviet superheavy tanks.

Grotte tank (Y.Yurov)

Grotte tank (drawing by Grotte himself)

In March 1930 for a technical competition, foreign engineers were invited to the USSR, including E. Grotte. Under his lead, by late autmn of 1931, a medium tank "TG" was developed. However, it did not win a bid for serial production. Grotte was denied Soviet contracts and wasn't contacted any more. However, in March 1931 Grotte also participated in the UMM RKKA competition for a superheavy tank, and proposed two variants of a 1000-ton tank with three or six turrets.

In the turrets, two 304mm, four 152mm and 76mm, and two 45mm guns were to be installed. The tank crew was projected around 40 men. Armor protection in forward parts of hull and turret was reaching 300mm, sides - 250mm, top and bottom - 60-100mm. Several engines were to be placed on the machine with a total power of 24,000 h.p. (17630 kWt), which would allow speed up to 60 kph. Transmission was hydromechanical with an electric control system. Hydraulic dampfers and three-layered tracks were to be implemented as a solution to the enormous weight. Upon reviewing the project, the UMM RKKA concluded that the tank construction would be extremely heavy, complex and hard to produce.

Scheme of VL heavy tank

1,14,19,29 - wheel drivers; 2,15,18,30 - main electric engines; 3 - radist entry hatch; 4 - radist; 5,23 - gun-loader; 6,9,24,26 - targeteer; 7 - 2nd in command; 8 - bottom entry hatch; 10 - commander; 11 - power cables; 12 - engine; 16 - motorist; 17,28 - mechanic-driver; 20 - out ventilator; 21 - radiator; 22 - in ventilator; 25 - electric; 27 - mechanic-driver entry hatch

Spring of 1940, Popov and Nuhman propose superheavy tank series - VL-S1, VL-S2 and VL-S3 (VL = Vladimir Lenin), with a mass from 260 to 460 tons. These projects were made on false data about Germany constructing similar heavy tanks, and the battles in Karelia.
The main weapon of the tank, designed to destroy heavy bunkers with MGs, was a 130-mm turret with a naval B-13 gun. Initial speed of projectile would be 870m/s. Or use 305-mm guns B-23 with a speed of 638 m/s. To fight anti-tank guns, MG emplacements and small entrenchements, two 76,2mm guns were to be used. To fight aviation, 7,62 mm DT guns were to be used. The tank's ammunition supply was 100 shots for B-13 or B-23, 300 shots for 76,2 mm guns, and 15000 DT ammo. Armor thickness ranged between 40, 60, 75 and 125 mm depending on type of plates used. Front armor was 125 mm, top - 40 mm. Two hatches were used to let the crew in and out.
Electromechanic transmission driving the wheels from electric motors was to be used, which were on the same driver with a 2400 h.p. (1760 kWt) diesel engine. Three GAM-34 800 h.p. engines were to be joined togerther, each would be connected to a 650 kWt generator. 4DK-3A engines (450 kWt) were to be taken from mass production electric trains. To cool the machinery, two fans were used which pushed the air in and out through special ventilation shafts with radiators.
Four tracks were to be used, two on each side, with independent drive for each. Internal tracks had drive wheels in the front, turn wheels in the back. Outer tracks - vice versa. Dampfers were steel/balance. The prototype of dampfer was taken from the SU-14 self-propelled artillery. Control of tank was to be done from two posts, front and rear, which would allow to move in any direction without turning the tank.
To transport the tank on railroad, it had to be disassembled in five parts: main tower, small towers, engine compartment and two sides of the hull.
The VL-S3 tank, smallest of the series - 260 tons with B-13 or 320 tons with B-23, could be transported without disassembly. It was intended only to fight with bunkers. Two 76,2mm guns were exhcnaged for 45mm guns, and ammunition load was halved. After evaluating the project, it was dropped immediately since it was completely unreal.

Source: Soviet heavy tanks 1917-1941. Exprint, 2004.

T-39, KV-3 to 5 series yet to come Also, two of the really produced Soviet heaviest tanks in metal were the IS-7 as Skimmer said (68 ton), and the KV-3 (likewise 68 tons).

In 1933, the Leningrad experimental Spetsmashtrest im. S.M. Kirov factory, under N.V. Barykov's lead, developed a superheavy T-39 assault tank. It was developed based on superheavy tank projects G.D. 6, T-42 and italian "Ansaldo" company project. The main engineer was P.N. Syachintov. Eight variants of the tank was developed. The T-39 was to have a mass of 90tons and armor protection with 12, 20, 25, 50, 75 mm plates. Projects made assumed a wide number of different armaments. Two or four towers had 45, 76, 107 and 152 mm guns installed. Additional weaponry included 4 to 6 machineguns, and 2 flamethrowers. The crew was to be 12 men. Wooden maquettes in 1:10 scale were produced.
The tank was to utilize a 12-cylinder V-egine M-34, 970 h.p. (713,2 kWt), or "Ispano-Suiza" engine (1150-1300 h.p., or 846-956 kWt). Fuel as carried would be 1500 liter. The factory was also orderd to make a steam power engine in the tank compartment scale. The max speed was around 24km on highway (asphalt) when using the M-34 engine and 33 kph with the "Ispano-Suiza" engine. Endurance was 144 or 194 km.
All works on T-39 were stopped when the first produced T-35 was accepted into the RKKA, a tank that could solve most of the T-39's tasks.

Pics (wooden models):



Top view of model

Blueprints:
Three views
Cutaway (T-39 variant #7)
Front view (T-39 variant #7)
Cutaway (T-39 variant #8)

Armament difference between Variants #7 and #8:
Variant #7: 152,4-mm mortar, 3 x 45-mm guns, 4 x 7,62-mm machine guns, flamethrower
Variant #8: 4 x 107-mm guns, 2 x 45-mm guns, 2 x 7,62-mm machine guns

[Pelranius]

A pity that Grotte never got his monster tanks built by the Nazis. That would have at least pushed their collapse forward by a few months.

[Zor]

A pity that Grotte never got his monster tanks built by the Nazis. That would have at least pushed their collapse forward by a few months.

While it would have blown a fair deal of resources, i doubt if it would have had that great an impact, although the soviets would have undoubtably loved having it as a Trophey of their victory over the Nazis in the Great Patriotic War if it could have been captured intact.

Zor

[K. A. Pital]

We captured the few examples of the Maus the Nazis managed to make. That's good enough.

[Samuel]

Where did the Soviet Union put them? Or did they scrap them for being horrific resource dumps?

[K. A. Pital]

Where did the Soviet Union put them?

In the Kubinka tank museum; it's still there. Interiors of tank and machinery did not survive (there are plans to restore it to make the tank at least capable to propel itself), but the hull is intact, assembled from hull of Maus unit 001 and tower of unit 002 probably.

[Sea Skimmer]

For their part, US forces captured pieces (most had been scrapped by 1945) of several other incomplete Maus hulls and turrets, while the British captured the largely complete hull of the only E100. A considerable number of other pointless German prototypes were also captured by various powers, including the only Grille 17, a Tiger II based self propelled gun able to take anything from a 17cm howitzer to a 30.5cm mortar. That’s of course EXACTLY what Germany needed in the 1944-45 period, WW1 style siege mortars on 60 ton hulls!

I suspect if you could kill off all the prototypes the Germans were always building of totally unnecessary vehicle types, you might well find enough resources to at least build the hull of a P1000, abet without using armor quality steel, something typical for prototypes anyway. The turret, as well as other steel, could be taken from the wrecked Gneisenau instead of building another shore battery (this frees up at least a few resources too, the batteries all went to Norway which was never attacked anyway), and the engines simply require killing off 1-2 U-boats.

Of course, once completed the prototype would need a year or more of trials to become remotely reliable, and would remain totally worthless without proper armor, never mind mobility issues. As a random thought, to save precious diesel fuel testing such a colossal vehicle it might be powered with a giant extension cord run off the German coal fired electrical grid much as they power giant excavators today.

[Pelranius]

The only practical utility of the P1000 (I don't even want to guess at the rate of fire) would be to try and overrun the Allied tanks like the Mammoth in Command and Conquer. But that's assuming the P1000 won't be outrun by jogging infantry, much less a T-34 or M4 Sherman at cruising speed.

[Adrian Laguna]

The only practical utility of the P1000 (I don't even want to guess at the rate of fire) would be to try and overrun the Allied tanks like the Mammoth in Command and Conquer. But that's assuming the P1000 won't be outrun by jogging infantry, much less a T-34 or M4 Sherman at cruising speed.

Actually, that is assuming it doesn't get bombed out of existence by aircraft and artillery long before it gets to the front lines. A huge thing like that is a (barely) moving target and nothing more.

[Napoleon the Clown]

As far as vehicles go, the Soviet Union never, to my knowledge, put serious thought into something is ridiculous as a 1,000 metric ton tank. Though Tsar Bomba would count as a ridiculous weapon that had no practical military application. The bomb was too large to fit into a bomber and had to be strapped to the belly of a cargo plane, adding a ton of drag to it. Still impressive, though, and a lot less ridiculous than a lot of Nazi Germany's tank ideas.


The crawler-transport, used to ferry the Space Shuttle, is a pretty good indication of what a 1,000 ton tank would need to be like, though it is considerably larger. The thing has a top speed of two miles per hour when unladen, and one when it's hauling anything. They'd be lucky, even now, to have such a monstrous tank mobile enough to be of any use on the battlefield. Even if they can make the armor able to stand up to artillery bombardment, there's always the option of blowing the earth out from underneath it and letting physics do the rest. I somehow doubt there's any realistic way to make it so even a five foot drop wouldn't cripple something that heavy.

[Sea Skimmer]

As far as vehicles go, the Soviet Union never, to my knowledge, put serious thought into something is ridiculous as a 1,000 metric ton tank. Though Tsar Bomba would count as a ridiculous weapon that had no practical military application. The bomb was too large to fit into a bomber and had to be strapped to the belly of a cargo plane, adding a ton of drag to it. Still impressive, though, and a lot less ridiculous than a lot of Nazi Germany's tank ideas.

Tsar Bomba was dropped by a Tu-95 bomber, carried semi externally as it protruded from the bomb bay. You certainly right that it had no practical military value, and not even much impractical military value, but it could have been used as an operational weapon.

I somehow doubt there's any realistic way to make it so even a five foot drop wouldn't cripple something that heavy.

The bigger the tank, the bigger the obstacles it can handle and the stronger it has to be built not to break under its own weight. P1000 is likely to be very strong, after all much of it is steel plates 250mm thick! Those don't break easy. It would be able to drive right over virtually any normal tank trap or anti tank ditch. The main mobility problem aside from low speed would be river crossings and mud, on paper it would be able to ford to a massive depth but in practice it’s very likely to bog down. Recovery would then be impossible in the absence of another P1000 (or two) as a tow vehicle. A thrown track would be an epic task to remount.