The Quantum Theory

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Sienthal
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The Quantum Theory

Post by Sienthal »

Alright...I'm going to be doing a little background reading into this, but I thought that a question about it couldn't hurt.

The Quantum Theory is the idea that nothing is real unless it is observed, correct?
So, does this mean that we are all separate universes, essentially, and unless we observe an action (Be it by listening or reading about it, or actually observing it) it will never happen?
2nd, does the presence of other entities affect this? Obviously, if they were to observe it, it is most likely that you would in some way observe it as well, and the action be done, but if there are other entities, each ignoring the action, will they themselves inadvertently do something that will cause you to observe the action, and therefore have it take place?
3rd, does concious or subconcious thought affect this wide-spectrum of observation? It would seem that the mere knowledge of a presence of the action would be grounds for it to take place. Is this true?

It does seem a bit absurd, as Einstein and Schroodinger believed, but according to others, Quantum Mechanics are the explanations for many things. In light of Schroodinger's example of the Quantum Theory, we cannot know that the cat will die unless we observe the experiment. However, we know of the experiment's presence, and therefore can alter the fate of the cat.

Do we decrease the cat's chances for survival? Or are we observing a later pattern of probability, and therefore sealing its fate?

I've pretty much confused myself...Could someone enlighten me? :?
One other thing, if someone wouldn't mind, perhaps if the Chaos Theory's basic principles could be added as well?
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Post by Mr Bean »

The Quantum Theory is the idea that nothing is real unless it is observed, correct?
I was not aware there was anything called the Quantum Theory
of course it could just be semantics, anyone else know more?


I know of Quantum Mechanics descriping the behavior and actions of very small things where things get kinda crazy there

Hmm I must admit while I'm familar with Strodiegner's Cat experment and the rest of his work I'm not familar with the it does not exist unless your observer it one

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Post by Zoink »

The key thing to remember with all these theories is that they ARE theories. Many people disagree with the cat example, because they don't believe that superposition of states can exist on the macroscopic ('non-microscopic') level.

If you flip a coin you can get either heads or tails. On the quantum level, it is possible to be in a state where the coin is both heads and tails. However, you could never see this "dual" coin. If you viewed it, then either the result of heads or tails would 'collapse' out, and you would see one of those: either heads or tails.

This doesn't mean that the coin doesn't exist until you see it. When they give these examples, "seeing" is an absract term. We are a collection of atomic particles, and dual-state coins don't 'collapse' out simply because our brains register "head" or "tail". A single sub atomic particle hitting the dual coin is "seeing" the coin, and could collapse it (unless it becomes entagled).
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Post by Durandal »

I'd suggest taking a basic, university-level physics course before trying to delve into quantum physics. Also, take some advanced math. There is no "lite" version of quantum physics, and there is no unified "quantum theory."

You obviously don't know the basic scientific method or the scientific definition of a theory, so you really should go out and learn the basics before delving into the more advanced. I'm not insulting you; I'm merely suggesting the proper course of action if you really wish to learn more about the subject. There's no silver bullet to learn a branch of physics.

BUT, since you asked, I'll do my best to try and clarify for you, if I can.
The Quantum Theory is the idea that nothing is real unless it is observed, correct?
Incorrect. Certain branches of quantum physics hold that an object exists purely as a wave function until something breaks the wave function by observing it. However, not all branches of quantum physics subscribe to this theory.
So, does this mean that we are all separate universes, essentially, and unless we observe an action (Be it by listening or reading about it, or actually observing it) it will never happen?
No. It means that everything in the universe exists as a wave function until the wave function is interrupted or broken down by an observer.
2nd, does the presence of other entities affect this? Obviously, if they were to observe it, it is most likely that you would in some way observe it as well, and the action be done, but if there are other entities, each ignoring the action, will they themselves inadvertently do something that will cause you to observe the action, and therefore have it take place?
The wave function is broken down by any observer.
3rd, does concious or subconcious thought affect this wide-spectrum of observation? It would seem that the mere knowledge of a presence of the action would be grounds for it to take place. Is this true?
There is no evidence, as far as I know, that human thought or knowledge has any effect on wave functions.
It does seem a bit absurd, as Einstein and Schroodinger believed, but according to others, Quantum Mechanics are the explanations for many things. In light of Schroodinger's example of the Quantum Theory, we cannot know that the cat will die unless we observe the experiment. However, we know of the experiment's presence, and therefore can alter the fate of the cat.
See above. Actual, physical interference is what changes things. This is known as Heisenberg Uncertainty. If you take measurements of a system, you must have interfered with that system in order to get those measurements, so the data you acquire will always come with a certain degree of uncertainty. This is only relevant on quantum scales, though. It mainly applies to measuring the position and momentum of a particle. Measuring one affects the other. On a scale like a baseball, though, the uncertainty of momentum and position is ridiculously small, so Newtonian mechanics does just fine.
Do we decrease the cat's chances for survival? Or are we observing a later pattern of probability, and therefore sealing its fate?
Perhaps. Perhaps not. We don't know.
If you flip a coin you can get either heads or tails. On the quantum level, it is possible to be in a state where the coin is both heads and tails. However, you could never see this "dual" coin. If you viewed it, then either the result of heads or tails would 'collapse' out, and you would see one of those: either heads or tails.
The quantum level deals with probabilities. Superposition is a state in which a particle has an equal probability of existing in 2 places. This also, if I'm not mistaken, derives from Heisenberg Uncertainty. Since the uncertainty principle is really only applicable to smaller scales, I, personally, don't see why superposition states should exist on macroscopic scales.
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Post by Nick »

The "Quantum Theory" doesn't really exist. There is a fairly sizable field known as Quantum Mechanics, which is part of the study of fundamental particles - breaking up reality as we know it into smaller and smaller bits, until we find things that we can't break up. In other, words, it is the study of _really_ small things, such as photons, electrons, protons, quarks, etc.

One aspect of quantum mechanics is known as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle - this states that the product of the uncertainty in a particle's position and the uncertainty in its momentum is a constant number. For large scale particles (e.g. a baseball or a bus) this uncertainty is small relative to the size of the object, and can be safely ignored. For very small particles (such as a photon or an electron), this uncertainty becomes significant - such that we can define 'regions of probability' for where an electron is within an atom or molecule, but we can't tell exactly where it currently is.

Another well-known example is Schroedinger's Cat. Schroedinger argued that everything existed as a probabilistic wave function - a collection of different locations and momenta each with a certain probability (strictly speaking, a probability function rather than a collection of pairs, but *shrug*). Certain events (such as taking a measurement) could 'collapse the wave function' and force the particle to assume a particular measurable state. This was considered a possible explanation for the behaviour of the 'double slit' experiment, where light shone a pair of closely spaced slits produces an interference pattern, _unless_ one puts a particle counter on one of the slits in order to determine where the photon actually is. The 'Cat' thought experiment, was just a way of pondering some of the issues raised by this idea - if the box is genuinely sealed and unobservable, is the cat really dead? (A slightly less silly version of this experiment considers the question of electron spin and supra-light speed transmission of information)

Basically, quantum mechanics messes with the intuition we have developed that deals with the macroscopic world of Newton - it can be fun and interesting to study, but holding strong opinions is a bad idea unless you _really_ know what you are talking about (as in, you should probably be an active researcher in quantum mechanics if you want to say anything significant about it).
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Post by Nick »

Just spotted the Chaos Theory question. . .

Prior to the advent of Chaos Theory, it was believed that any system would eventually settle down into either a steady, unchanging state, or a repeating pattern of perioidic variation.

Chaos theory demonstrates that it is possible for a simple non-linear system to reach a state which is theoretically calculable, but, for all practical purposes, unpredictable.

It's sort of like the difference in mathematics between rational numbers (ratios of two integers, forming repeating or terminating decimal numbers) and the irrational numbers (such as pi, the square root of 2, or e).

Chaos theory is amazingly cool - if you are interested in it, I strongly recommend the book 'Chaos' by James Gleick (talks about what chaos theory is all about, where it originated, and why it is useful)
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Post by oberon »

I just wanted to add that "the Quantum Theory" is simply the statement that energy exists in discrete packets, called quanta, which you don't really get a clue about until you look at energy jumps from electron valence shells, and if I go any further past the Bohrs model then I'd be in real trouble, so I'll stop right there; and chaos theory has simply been the search for mathematical models--it's not that people always thought that long-term behavior settles into a periodic orbit or what it was that Nick said, just that there have not been mathematical tools to deal with nonlinear phenomena until the 2nd half of the last century. In the "classical" realm, people would tend to ignore the nonlinear behavior, but modern engineering and such has made it impossible to neglect any longer--we need to understand large-amplitude oscillations of non-periodic behaviors instead of just engineering in large safety factors after some crude calcs (and any more into eng, and I'll be in trubble again!). Chaos "theory" isn't a single theory, as it encompasses all the old classical applied mathematics and introduces some new ones, such as catastrophe theory, index theory, bifurcations, etc. The test of chaos is generally "sensitivity to initial conditions," with the criterion being pretty much the same as that for well-formed formulas in error analysis from computational mathematics; and the non-periodicity of a final state, if it doesn't settle down from a transient state of chaos.

Now, this is just my informed opinion, but Gleick is a fun read, but not one I would really look to to understand chaos. What I would rather recommend is that one takes linear algebra, because introductory chaos is highly dependent on it--you basically are solving ordinary differential equations and looking at Jacobians to analyze stability, which will take you a long, long way into Chaos, further than Gleick's book ever will--and it's more fun to actually do this than to read some fusty old history about fractals.

The disadvantage to this approach is that it does take longer to get to the "fractal stuff" but if you really want to comprehend fractal dimensions, instead of just plugging numbers into a fractal generator, then this is the way to go. Plus you will learn something useful and compelling, and be able to talk about it somewhat more than superficially.

At this point I assume some basic understanding of diffeq and linear algebra, and so I'll recommend a book. I regard Stephen Strogatz' book pretty highly, as it teaches what you need to know along the way in a fun, easy-to-grasp manner. It is not dry, and it's cheap--$60, look at perseusbooks.com (at least that's what it says on the cover). It's a chaos primer called Nonlinear Dynamics and Chaos.

There are bits about Josephson junctions and such, but I wouldn't call it a quantum theory book...
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Post by Darth Wong »

To the original poster: do you understand Newtonian physics? And by that, I mean "do you understand it to the point where you can comfortably apply Newton's laws of motion to real situations and generate reliable calculations?" Because if you can't, there's no way you'll be able to grasp anything more advanced. Don't try to run before you can walk.
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Post by oberon »

Well said, DW. I've noticed an astounding amount of this kind of thing--people, "online allies" even, invoking CoE when discussing an "animating life force" without showing any knowledge of biochemistry and energy, or making sweeping statements about chaos without understanding calculus, or about QT without understanding Newtonian physics, etc. It's weird. I've found that you can't discount anything--there may always be some definition or fact of which you are unaware, which may render a grand argument completely dead in the water, yet people are less than cautious when faced with the opportunity to use "higher physics" to debate someone else.
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Post by Zoink »

Anyone interested in the subject should read:

"Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" by Lee Smolin

A very interesting read, giving the current state of research on the nature of reality. Its fairly easy to understand but does require some knowledge on the subject.

I picked up some interesting info that I didn't know like:

Accelerating creates an event horizon (from your reference frame), and thus you would register virtual particles similar to a black hole.

The amount of information in a volume of space is equal to its surface area (not volume!)
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Post by Nick »

oberon wrote:Now, this is just my informed opinion, but Gleick is a fun read, but not one I would really look to to understand chaos. What I would rather recommend is that one takes linear algebra, because introductory chaos is highly dependent on it--you basically are solving ordinary differential equations and looking at Jacobians to analyze stability, which will take you a long, long way into Chaos, further than Gleick's book ever will--and it's more fun to actually do this than to read some fusty old history about fractals.
I certainly wouldn't say I understand chaos theory - Gleick's book simply gave me a better idea for what it is and why it is useful. Given that I'm not actually interested in getting into the field (sorry, got all the linear algebra I could ever want back at university), a 'let's-hit-the-high-points' style like the one Gleick employs worked well for me.

But I agree - no-one reading should get any sort of delusions about actually being able to doing anything practical in the field without some serious study (Gleick is deliberately light on for actual mathematics).

I'd definitely second what Mike said about making sure you have a really solid grasp of conventional physics before trying to jump into any of this esoteric stuff - it isn't something you're going to pick up in a casual afternoon's reading. This stuff runs counter to a whole heap of our natural instincts - it takes hard work (and usually help) to get over that.
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the quantum mechanics and observation

Post by omegaLancer »

I think the problem is that the original post simplified the Quantum Mechanics and the observer problem..

The fact is that all particles or entities in Quantum mechanics involve the collasp of the Particle Quantum Wave function to determine it location, or state.. But what collaspes the Function, the only thing that we know that when a measurement is made it does... Einstein hated this of course, until this happen the particle or entity was in a quantum limbo, he felt that there had to be more to the mix, and thru came in his experimental idea to test whether they were hidden features of particles that we donot know about..

Mean while Nuemann attack the Quantum wave function, his idea that Gravity or better yet that the interaction of the Gravitron ( yes it may not exist) would be the key... If enought particles interacted or was added to the system then the particles involved would have their wave functions collasped and become "Real".. But his work remain unfinish due to his death...

While Einstein experiment became the basis of all the Quantum entanglement experiments you hear about.. See A Physicist by the name of Bell look at the bases of Einstein and Neumann work and came up with a conclusion, for Quantum entity to have hidden values they had to stand up to a specific inequality, from all the entanglement experiments on dual photons they didnot.. So from this he concluded in order for Quantum particle to contain these hidden properties either Quantum particle interactions are non local ( meaning that they can interact in a manner not limited by SOL) or that reality is non causic ( that cause doesnot really follow effect).. both conclusion just made Einstein a little more miffed and confused the issue, but hey without all this we would not have all the wonderful work on Quantum entanglement.

Meanwhile on the Collasp of the Wave function and why it does when a measurement is taken is still a mystery. Wheeler said it the human observer that behind it, other agrue what is an observer ( whether a machine or any conscience mind would due) or maybe Nuemann was correct, but the problem is that until a working theory of Quantum Gravity is discover this aspect is dead end ( no Pun meant on Neumann's death and his work going unfinish)..

So Take yor pick a universe that has quantum particles be real even without their Wave function being collasped, but then reality is either nonlocal or non causic.. Or Quantum particles are not real till you get out the measuring device and either the force of mind or quantum Gravity make them so... Woooow this stuff give me a head ache
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