Episode V: The Creationists Strike Back

[Shadow WarChief]

Behold! The creationists' response to talk.origins:

http://www.trueorigin.org/theobald1b.asp

:roll:

[Robert Treder]

Oooh, I'll have to read over that when I have time for a good laugh.

[adam warlock]

*grumble*

[IDMR]

By the Power vested in me, I hereby declare...

CRUSADE!!!

[Nova Andromeda]

--I assume you refer to the second definition of crusade (we wouldn't want to confuse ourselves):
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

--If so do you have a plan?
(Suggested response: Of course!!!)

--If so is it a killer plan?
(Suggested response: HELL YES!!!)

--How might I be of service...

[IDMR]

--I assume you refer to the second definition of crusade (we wouldn't want to confuse ourselves):
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

NO! It is the third definition! We crush their bones beneath our heels and quench our thirst with their blood!

--If so do you have a plan?
(Suggested response: Of course!!!)

Of course!!!

--If so is it a killer plan?
(Suggested response: HELL YES!!!)

HELL YES!!!

--How might I be of service...

We will first post the contents of the said article in the forum, which is acceptable since it would fall under the 'creationist' category of this forum. Then we shall mercilessly ridicule it, as we would any piece of pseudoscientific drivel which makes its way here.

After that is done, we will proceed to summarize our... commentary into a document, which we will then post in all major lists and sites.

The battle plan is, of course, open to suggestions.

[Nova Andromeda]

--I have glanced at the document and it is very long. I suggest we take a look at it and see if there are any general flaws that are easy to spot. If so perhaps we can skip analysis of each point. If not we may have to address each individual point or at least the first few. One possibility is that the author is playing a shell game, but I will need to look in more detail at the paper.

--Basically, what I'm saying is this will probably be large task that is best tackled a peice at a time.
--After all we want to completely obliterate the paper and its authors reputation (if s/he has any worth mention).

--Just found the talkorigins response:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/camp.html

[IDMR]

It is rather on the lengthy side, is it not? The article, when posted, will obviously have to be in sections, then we can dissect it in detail. Verbosity of this sort is a common creationist tactics, draining one's will to live just by its very length, but we have the numbers to compensate!

As well, we can certainly build on the Talkorigins response.

[Mr Bean]

I say we break it into Parts(As its done) Then break each Part into Sections to speed this up
One page at a time if we don't have enough people or two at a time if we do

Let me know what devoples

[Mr Bean]

The first one is funny
ANATOMICAL VESTIGIAL STRUCTURES
Things that are similar to other animals but the animal in question does not use
Evolution says its left over
Creation slams this as *unscientific and then says it delebrate from the Creator.....

So in the Begining Bob made us... And gave us filled us with useless vestigial structures

For Fun?
And they call THEM unscientific.....

I'm thinking this one is gonna be fun boys

[JJP]

Bugger me. Reading that was like having hydrochloric acid squirted onto the logic and reasoning centres of my brain.

[A Big Flying Fish]

I'll have to try very hard not to laugh myself to death at some of their logic

[David]

useless vestigial structures

What vestigial structures are you refering to?

[Pablo Sanchez]

What vestigial structures are you refering to?

In humans, the best examples are the Appendix and Coccyx, which are both actually less than useless, because the appendix can rupture and kill you, while the coccyx does nothing and can be painfully broken or bruised.

[David]

I don't think either of these are very good examples. Both of these structures have uses, and are therefore not vestigial. for example the appendix fights infection. The coccyx is the bottom of your spine; without it you could not sit comfortably. It also provides an attachment for your pelvic organs, so they will not collapse.

[David]

Also, just because you can survive without an organ does not make it vestigial.

[JJP]

OK, for vestigial traits that are now useless, how about-

1) Our hairs standing up when cold or frightened, even when we have far too little hair for this to accomplish anything.
2) The fact that we have five toes on the ground which is needless and causes great pain when they're stubbed (a horse manages fine with one)
3) The fact that we have a shared tube for eating and breathing which causes an obvious choking hazard.
4) Human embryos have tails and gill slits
5) Some babies are born with tails or covered in fur
6) Some people grow useless wisdom teeth that can cause pain
7) The fact that men have nipples that cancer can occur in
We can't make our own Vitamin C when dogs can

Enough for you?

These are all lifted directly from http://riceinfo.rice.edu/armadillo/Scia ... tigial.htm

[JJP]

And in reference to the Appendix, it's obvious that it does far more harm than good. Whatever affect it might have on the immune system is more than offset by the probability of appendicitis, when it can explode and kill you.

[David]

1)We have far too little hair for this to accomplish anything.

Tell that to a bald man.

2) The fact that we have five toes on the ground which is needless and causes great pain when they're stubbed (a horse manages fine with one)

I'll assume your joking, unlike horses, we walk upright, not on all fours.

3) The fact that we have a shared tube for eating and breathing which causes an obvious choking hazard.

The fact that we breath causes a choking hazard, we're talking about vestigial organs here, not organs necessary to our survival.

4) Human embryos have tails and gill slits

These are myths.True enough, at an early stage of development the human fetus does have certain folds or creases which resemble these found in a fish embryo. As they develop, however, the resemblance stops. In the fish, the folds develop into gills; but in the human, they develop into the glands and structures in the ear and neck areas. If humans were related to fish, you would expect the gills to evolve into the lungs, trachea, and mouth. Similarly, the embryonic human "tail" is in reality the developing coccyx, which I have already addressed. Everything about the human embryo is totally unique and human.

5) Some babies are born with tails or covered in fur

There has never been a case of a human being born with a tail, and there has never been a human born covered in "fur". You may be thinking of a disorder called hypertrichosis, which is the excess production of a hormone group called androgens.

6) Some people grow useless wisdom teeth that can cause pain

They cause pain because there is sometimes not enough room for them. It might be noted that this only happens in Western culture. The rest of the world does not seem to have problems with their wisdom teeth. The reason we do is because of our diet. Due to a better diet, humans today may be maturing faster than in the past, and our facial bones lack sufficient growth time before wisdom teeth come in. This may be due to growth hormones in food.

7) The fact that men have nipples that cancer can occur in

Nipples are not a sex-linked characteristic. In other words, they are not passed on through the X chromosome. Nipples are just one of those sexually neutral pieces of equipment, like arms or brains, that humans get regardless of sex. Just because one of your organs can be the target of a disease does not make it vestigial.

[JJP]

1) What, are you suggesting that our hairs standing on end when we are frightened makes us look bigger or keeps us warmer when we're cold? Face it, it's a useless remnant from when it would have actually helped.

2)OK, maybe it's more reasonable to say that it would be a much better design to have fewer toes on the ground.

3) Missed the point. The point is that it's very bad design to have a shared tube for eating and breathing, and clearly happened through modification of already existing structures.

4) What's this? A downright lie? Everything about human embryos is uniquely human? I guess "embryological homology" means nothing to you. Of course when they grow the resemblance stops. The point is that human embryos at early stages are practically indistinguishable from those of other species.

5) Admittedly I don't have specific examples for children with tails and therefore posted too hastily, but I still contest this. I'll try to find some.

6) I know they cause pain because there's not enough room for them. Some people don't get them at all, and some might only get the top two or bottom two, so they're useless for chewing. If this doesn't constitute a useless vestigial feature I don't know what does.

7) It doesn't matter if they're not a sex-linked characteristic. They are not sexually neutral- they occur because all embryos are structurally female to start with. It means men are left with a completely useless organ that can become cancerous. This is clear evidence for evolution- a seemingly jury rigged system for getting two sexes.

Can we get this out in the open- are you a creationist?

[Durandal]

I glanced at the length of the article, and I have decided against reading yet another long-winded piece of creationist trash. Creationism makes no testable predictions and is therefore unscientific. Period. All creationists are trying to do is create a false dilemma by instilling doubt in evolutionary theory, thereby forcing ignorant, gullible people to jump to creationism as their explanation by default.

If you want to read my response to a similar, 3-parted long-winded pile of crap, feel free to go here:

http://homepage.mac.com/durandal64/topi ... emain.html

</shameless plug>

[Mr Bean]

I think Dave is mearly Devils Advocte on this issue not an acutal Creationist(He looks to smart to be a Creationist)

[Zoink]

2)OK, maybe it's more reasonable to say that it would be a much better design to have fewer toes on the ground.

Tell that to someone with no arms! Toes may seem useless to the average person because we ignore them, but if you were really motivated, they could be more usefull than some of our other feature, like say eyebrows.

[StarshipTitanic]

2)OK, maybe it's more reasonable to say that it would be a much better design to have fewer toes on the ground.

Tell that to someone with no arms! Toes may seem useless to the average person because we ignore them, but if you were really motivated, they could be more usefull than some of our other feature, like say eyebrows.

You're missing the point: They have no inherent use. We can MAKE uses for toes but that doesn't mean they have a clearly defined reason for being there.

[Shadow WarChief]

Thanks for the Talk.origins response.

And now, I shall reveal to you the evolution v.s. crapationism I found the "trueorigins" link in.

http://www.blizzforums.com/showthread.p ... genumber=1

If you wish to invade, INVADE THERE!

The beginning of the cutting and pasting from that pag begins on the sixth page.