How long will it be until we have FTL?

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-08-23 10:59pm

Unless there's some cosmic, quantum physical loop hole we can exploit without needing bigfrigginnumberwatts of energy such as the subspace bubble generating dilithium crystals or space fabric punching quantum 40 we probably won't have it for thousands of years. Now if there is a cosmic loop hole chances are we probably will find it eventually, but I think it's hard to say how or when, probably just be the result of a lucky accident.

What do you think?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-08-23 11:45pm

Never. There is no evidence that it is even remotely possible.

Imperial Federation · Post by **Imperial Federation** » 2002-08-23 11:51pm

But that doesn't mean it's totally impossible either.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-08-24 12:01am

Probably never. The best we can do is make a theory.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-08-24 12:01am

Imperial Federation wrote:But that doesn't mean it's totally impossible either.

No, but based on all the evidence at hand, the only logical conclusion at this point is that it won't happen. Keep in mind that as far as we know, it's not even theoretically possible.

PS. By the rigid standard used here, Santa Claus isn't totally impossible either, but I don't see anyone betting on his existence.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-24 12:18am

We will never travel FTL.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2002-08-24 12:19am

Didn't I hear somewhere that it was theoretically possible to "cheat" and bend space, and thus get the same result as exceeding the speed of light? I recall hearing that they had no idea how one would actually do this, however, and that the energy requirements were simply insane.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-24 12:25am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:Didn't I hear somewhere that it was theoretically possible to "cheat" and bend space, and thus get the same result as exceeding the speed of light? I recall hearing that they had no idea how one would actually do this, however, and that the energy requirements were simply insane.

Yes. You need a cosmic string, or similar, and you need to move around the outside of its effect on space time. In this manner, it is possible to beat a beam of light moving through the object's effect on space time. Note that a black hole will not work.

Incidentally, to pull this off for us would be virtually impossible unless we were ALREADY able to move at reasonably high speeds (as in, .5c and up). Thus it is ENORMOUSLY difficult, and the OP said that these methods of cheating were not allowed. Incidentally, it is thought that ST warp engines somehow operate using this principal, but it is unproven.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2002-08-24 12:36am

Darth Wong wrote:Never. There is no evidence that it is even remotely possible.

There's a shred of evidence that FTL might be possible within the bounds of the current physics theory. Two theoretical examples would be Kip Thorne's causality-preserving wormholes and the Alcubierre warp drive. As for either of these ideas working in real life, the engineering would be rather difficult, to put it mildlyl even if both ideas aren't simply artifacts of an incomplete understanding of physics.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-08-24 12:42am

Enlightenment wrote:There's a shred of evidence that FTL might be possible within the bounds of the current physics theory. Two theoretical examples would be Kip Thorne's causality-preserving wormholes and the Alcubierre warp drive. As for either of these ideas working in real life, the engineering would be rather difficult, to put it mildlyl even if both ideas aren't simply artifacts of an incomplete understanding of physics.

That is mathematical possibility, and nothing more. In both cases, huge magnitudes of negative mass/energy are required. There is no evidence that negative mass can exist outside of insignificant quantum fluctuations.

In the case of alcubierre warp drive, I'm not so sure that's even mathematically possible. Didn't Lawrence Krauss point out that the effect would only propagate at lightspeed, so if (for example) you wanted to travel 50 light years away, it would take 50 light years to produce the space compression effect before you could begin your journey? In this case, it is FTL only in name; in the overall scheme of things, you don't get there any faster than a photon would.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-08-24 01:21am

I doubt we'll ever get FTL. We'll probably end up like the Yevetha, doing interstellar runs and generally being a hazard to our neighbors.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2002-08-24 02:29am

I hope we will someday find a way to surpass the speed of light. It would really suck if FTL was impossible, even to a civilization with a complete understanding of physics, and have the universe be that big. It seems like a damn waste. A lot can happen in a thousand years. Perhaps I'll freeze myself at the local 7-11 to see the wonders of the future. LMAO
Well, in my opinion, humanity only exists for the persuit and of knowledge. I am almost certain that we will have means to travel FTL. And if I'm wrong? I wont care because my dust would have demoleculerized by the time. But even when that happens, Master Wong will somehow say "I told you so" to us Starry-Eyed futureists.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-08-24 05:15am

Yeah, I hope that we'll develop FTL, too. I hope that it happens soon, 'cuz I wanna get off this planet. But I'm not going to hold my breath.

Right now, NASA thinks that it's insanely ambitious to just travel at significant percentages of C. Their PR department says "We'll have a ship travelling at .25C in fifty years." The engineers say "We'll have a ship travelling at .01C in five hundred years". Whose opinion do you think I put more stock in?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2002-08-24 05:25am

Me, I'm just kinda disillusioned. All my old science fiction lied to me! We should be on the Moon and Mars in a variety of ways, the Discovery should already be on it's way to Jupiter, we should be beginning to fight the Forever War with the Taurans, and a variety of other things that failed to live up to reality.

On topic, probably not, but there is no harm dreaming, eh?

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-24 05:53am

We'll never ever get FTL travel.
Our only chances are to develop decent sublight drives and sleeper ships to get out of our solar system.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-24 08:56am

Right now I see magic as our only viable FLT travel method

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-08-24 03:22pm

I wouldn't get against the possibility of FTL drives, but I do not see it happening at any point in the forseeable future. IMO we might develope FTL drives well after we have already begun colonization of other star systems. And that is a LONG time from now.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-08-24 07:53pm

I really only see FTL happening in two ways, either we get to a point where the energy requirements to put theories into practice no longer matter which I agree would be long after we tired of life trapped on our tiny little dot in the universe and accept the harsh requirements for getting out of here.

Or, we get fantastically lucky and get it as the result of a one in a million chance discovery of some loop hole. According to our current level of physics knowledge this is probably pretty far fetched but at least I won't say it's impossible, just unlikely.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-24 08:03pm

Or, we get fantastically lucky and get it as the result of a one in a million chance discovery of some loop hole. According to our current level of physics knowledge this is probably pretty far fetched but at least I won't say it's impossible, just unlikely.

Now all we need is somone stumbling onto somthing VERY brillant which 9/9.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of the popluation will not understand but when he pops back with Moon rocks and sells them on Ebay we will take his word for it

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2002-08-24 11:35pm

Impossible? Bah. Just a few centuries ago we were digging around in the dirt and didn't know an electron from our asshole. Give us a millenium or two and we'll work this FTL thing out.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2002-08-24 11:39pm

Since, according to Lord Wong, travel at 1c is not technically impossible, might someone less lazy than I look up the following numbers?

Travel time from Sol to Alpha Centauri at 1c.

Travel time from England to India in a 15th century sailing ship.

Travel time of Magellan's expedition.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-08-25 12:04am

Maybe we can put a big hand out in space trying to thumb a ride with a sign saying "Alpha Centuri or bust"?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-25 12:07am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:Impossible? Bah. Just a few centuries ago we were digging around in the dirt and didn't know an electron from our asshole. Give us a millenium or two and we'll work this FTL thing out.

But a few centuries ago scholars would not have dismissed the electron as being an impossibility based on their knowledge of the subject, they just had no real way of testing to find out what kinds of structures atoms had. There is a difference between assuming something is impossible based on evidence and not understanding something well enough to confirm or deny an aspect of it.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-08-25 03:56am

...I too have to fall on the side of "extremely unlikely" as far as FTL is concerned. The sheer physical obstacles in the way of the concept appear insurmountable.

Of course, it is remotely possible that the discovery of a new principle may open the way for the thing to be mechanically feasible —but until such principle is actually discovered, there isn't a hope in hell of crossing galactic distances in any less a time than centuries/millenia. It could be that we are in the same position in relation to FTL travel as we once were in trying to figure out the energy production of the sun before nuclear physics was codified. Before that sheaf of principles was understood, the sun's energy production remained an intractable mystery, not adequately explanable by the gravitational condensation theory.

And if fast galactic travel ever does become possible, I very seriously doubt it will be anything akin to the Star Trek warp drive, the Star Wars hyperdrive, or the Babylon 5 hyperjump. A planck-time translocation from point A to point B seems more likely.

But otherwise, we're looking at a future of extensive colonisation of our own solar system with artificial moons and space cities and relativistic star travel in which we're more or less saying goodbye permanently to the people who take off for Pi-2 Orionis (or a society which keeps track of its star travelers by extensive records-keeping alà Haldeman's The Forever War).

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-25 03:57am

Impossible? Bah. Just a few centuries ago we were digging around in the dirt and didn't know an electron from our asshole. Give us a millenium or two and we'll work this FTL thing out.

You know, the main problem with FTL speed is that with conventional acceleteration techniques you will never acheive it.
Assuming you have infinite fuel reserves, you can come infinitely close to light speed but you will never reach it, since only and only light can move at lightspeed, while bodies with a certain mass can move above or below lightspeed but never with exactly c.
That is what Darth Wong meant with FTL travel is mathematically possible.

And, then there's still the time delation problem. That is also impossible to overcome.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

How long will it be until we have FTL?

How long will it be until we have FTL?

Much as I like the idea...