SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

[Oskuro]

I'm... totally lost trying to simultaneusly follow the game thread and OOC comment thread

Guess I'll start again, and the promise of sea monsters is enticing.

[Steve]

To be fair to Shep, I don't think he was really interested in repeating SDNW1 unless pushed into it, but Norseman just started pressing buttons and triggered Shep's impulse control problem.

I almost had him talked out of the bioattack, as Norseman had decided to quit after posting the reforms, but Norse just had to get in a "last word" post and press buttons again (What with the whole "spitroasting" reference), and thus Shep's button was pressed again....

Oh, Siege, to set the record straight, the peace workers thing was mine and simply to set up the Star of Sweethaven mutiny, though I tried to ensure I stuck to what Norseman had already established (the practice of forging paperwork for abducted persons, for instance, and general social refusal on various levels to even contemplate someone had been "illegally" enslaved). He, of course, wrote that entire disgusting sequence with the slave trader Gill and what he did to poor Kasia, as well as the ice cream made from slave girls' breast milk and a few other vignettes. And the reaction of that middle class family to finding out their houseslave was an abducted PeZookian national (that is, instead of being horrified, the wife screeched hatred at the authorities for taking her slave against her rights or something of the sort) wasn't exactly a good sign on the issue of foreign citizens being abducted and sold into Astarian slavery (indeed, IIRC he implied there was great demand for educated slaves, and therefore a waiting market for any traffickers who could abduct people from the educated areas of the world, as happened to that busload of PeZookian college students).

Sadly the Star of Sweethaven storyline went nowhere because Norseman's reaction was basically to give a brief acknowledgment it happened and refuse to follow up on it. I knew I should've just seized the damned ship and arrested the crew instead of simply evacuating the mutineers.....

[Oskuro]

*pulls back from reading old SDNW threads*

Ok, some noobness on my part again... *cough* How does this work? Is the main thread used to make relevant posts? Does the comment thread count? Is the wiki used? Are people doing shady deals via PM/Chat? What the hell? I just see things happening in the thread and get totally lost

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

*pulls back from reading old SDNW threads*

Ok, some noobness on my part again... *cough* How does this work? Is the main thread used to make relevant posts? Does the comment thread count? Is the wiki used? Are people doing shady deals via PM/Chat? What the hell? I just see things happening in the thread and get totally lost

The main thread is mostly a "news" thread, along with some back story or event that leads onto something.

Lots of the discussions take place in the comment thread, and some back door discussions take place in PM/chat. Some of the really collective backdoor discussions take place in ... some places.

[Steve]

*pulls back from reading old SDNW threads*

Ok, some noobness on my part again... *cough* How does this work? Is the main thread used to make relevant posts? Does the comment thread count? Is the wiki used? Are people doing shady deals via PM/Chat? What the hell? I just see things happening in the thread and get totally lost

Main thread is for IC posts. Commentary thread is for OOC posts. Also, PMs and IMs are used extensively for deals and collaboration.

Hell, SDNW1 got blown up because of remarks in an AIM Chat that wasn't even centered on the game about the MESS' plans should it have to attack Shep. He decided to launch first, claiming that "national technical means" had determined the MESS was about to strike at him

[PeZook]

The comment thread doesn't count. The wiki is used as a repository of information and quick reference, and yes, most shady deals are done via PMs, emails and such, though it's good form to make a story post or two about your guys plotting something, so that your evil plan gets some in-game reason for happening, rather than just *BOOM* Shepistan and USCR bomb Astaria.

EDIT: Also, writing about Gill getting shot in the head was highly satisfying.

[Steve]

The comment thread doesn't count. The wiki is used as a repository of information and quick reference, and yes, most shady deals are done via PMs, emails and such, though it's good form to make a story post or two about your guys plotting something, so that your evil plan gets some in-game reason for happening, rather than just *BOOM* Shepistan and USCR bomb Astaria.

EDIT: Also, writing about Gill getting shot in the head was highly satisfying.

I did set up the Star of Sweethaven bit through a news post, where an article mentions missing Peace Corps workers in Bissauru (which neighbored Astarian Veleria).

And yes, I imagine that was satisfying. I was hoping for something similar but, alas, Norseman wouldn't play.

[Coyote]

Also, the first iteration of the game was, in a way, semi-controlled silliness and ridiculousness. A lot of things got pulled out of thin air, like the sea monsters and stuff, just to have fun throwing curve balls at each other to see what people do. It was a total playpen.

The second one was a bit more serious and controlled, and we tried to really build on things, but there was still a lot of leftover fun-ness and silliness. A lot of times --I know I did this-- we'd simply explore the internet for ridiculous images and then post them with a hastily-made up story wrapped around them. If you've run across my "communist youth unicycle brigade", that was one of them. I found the image of uniformed children riding unicycles in formation and made up something on the fly. I think SDNW2 was my favorite, it had good character development and stuff, considering what it was.

[Steve]

Also, the first iteration of the game was, in a way, semi-controlled silliness and ridiculousness. A lot of things got pulled out of thin air, like the sea monsters and stuff, just to have fun throwing curve balls at each other to see what people do. It was a total playpen.

The second one was a bit more serious and controlled, and we tried to really build on things, but there was still a lot of leftover fun-ness and silliness. A lot of times --I know I did this-- we'd simply explore the internet for ridiculous images and then post them with a hastily-made up story wrapped around them. If you've run across my "communist youth unicycle brigade", that was one of them. I found the image of uniformed children riding unicycles in formation and made up something on the fly. I think SDNW2 was my favorite, it had good character development and stuff, considering what it was.

My favorite as well, hopefully SDNW4 will be even better, yes? Allows for more sillyness, that's for sure.

[Pollux]

no slaves for you! etc.

*sigh*

... I'll play nice.

[Steve]

no slaves for you! etc.

*sigh*

... I'll play nice.

Was just giving you fair warning.....

[Steve]

Okay, honestly, I think it comes down to this.

If you have a system where alien races under your control are treated like utter, complete shit, with any rebellion ruthlessly suppressed... you'd be an asshole and we'd hate you, but that's not in of itself justification for putting the "Kick Me" sign on your nation profile. I suppose you could even call them "slaves" to a point and this principle would hold.

But when you state what you had them do, the whole thing about setting up interstellar chattel slave trading and talking about an open government-sanctioned slave trade that imports and exports them - and thus quite likely ends up with foreign nationals enslaved - then you're entering into Norseman Rule territory. If you couple that with rubbing our noses in it, well, that's when the beatdown is going to start coming without pause or remorse. Because it's one thing if it's an illegitimate trade that your government tries to clamp down on and which it has the social support and authority to do, and it's another if it either supports it or doesn't but lacks the social support to punish it (As Norseman set up in Astaria; the government considered it illegal but most Astarian citizens didn't give a rat's ass, as owning a slave was a status symbol and the government lacked the power to impose means to ensure legality in the dealings). The final element is if you dwell on it like Norseman did. And he was pretty constant on his "Astaria has slavery" stuff. And of course, that grates and eventually you have Stas bombing you and Shep readying the plague bombs. And we don't want that again, honestly.

I think that makes the point rather well.

[Simon_Jester]

As a newbie, it seems to me that it boils down to this:

Thou shalt not commit acts of war against numerous foreign nations, especially not ones involving enslavement or other harm inflicted on foreign nationals.

From all accounts, Norseman violated that rule- he wrote Astaria as kidnapping many foreign nationals as part of a government-sheltered slave trade, and in many cases raping, torturing, or killing them. That is reasonably considered an act of war, and got Astaria attacked. Because everyone has that little itch to cut loose and hammer someone in a war in this kind of game, and Astaria presented itself as a target by being so horrible that everyone could agree that the boil needed lancing.

So don't do the same thing. If you've got serfs within your empire and they're abused, it's bad and it may provoke incidents. But if you start harassing foreign nations, and harming the citizens of other PC's countries, then you will (rightly) provoke a massive Smackdown of Liberty.

Also:

Thou shalt not advertise thy disgusting human rights abuses as a primary feature of thy state.

This was, according to conversations I've had with Steve, a big part of why Norseman got hammered: he was waving his own activities under the nose of other players: "[Norseman] had slavery. And he never failed to remind us that he had slavery. And he acted like an idiot about having slavery. And you know he had slavery, right? Oh look, another post about Astaria having slavery... then you cue the crying when someone... started pushing back."

So basically, this is a specific sub-rule under "don't be a douche." Don't advertise how OMG BAD!!! your nation is if you don't want to wind up getting pounded into oblivion by the combined Grand Fleet of Civilization.

[PeZook]

Heh...well, the kidnapped student thing was really and outgrowth of what was supposed to be a smaller story about human trafficking in the Border States. I wonder if the outcome would've been the same had Norseman not written all those nasty, nasty segments about Oliver Gill and how much of a douchebag he was, since his government was trying to help PeZookia find its people

[loomer]

Well, I think I'll keep the small-scale black market slavery I had planned for the Angmarids, then, since it seems like that won't invoke the unholy wrath of the cosmos.

[PeZook]

Again, it's not slavery per se that ticked people off, it was the nose-rubbing and slavery being the only topic of all posts regarding Astaria.

[K. A. Pital]

Is there a Union of Space Republics of you-know-what? *laughs* Sadly, no time to play. But I am content, because I'm translating Paradox Software's "Victoria 2". Which is basically SDNW translated into a game - less HoI, more internal politics.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Is there a Union of Space Republics of you-know-what? *laughs* Sadly, no time to play. But I am content, because I'm translating Paradox Software's "Victoria 2". Which is basically SDNW translated into a game - less HoI, more internal politics.

Stas! Plese play!

Come over to the usergroup!

[DarthShady]

Stas! Join us, you know you want to.

Again, it's not slavery per se that ticked people off, it was the nose-rubbing and slavery being the only topic of all posts regarding Astaria.

Yep. I mean the story you made out of it was good, but the stuff he was doing, was going to get him killed eventually by someone. Shep and Stas were just the first on the long list of people who wanted to end him.

[Steve]

Is there a Union of Space Republics of you-know-what? *laughs* Sadly, no time to play. But I am content, because I'm translating Paradox Software's "Victoria 2". Which is basically SDNW translated into a game - less HoI, more internal politics.

Oh, that is a sweet gig. I'm trying not to have high hopes for Vicky 2, though, as Paradox's been losing their touch (HOI3's issues). Hopefully they'll do better with Vicky 2, and hopefully it'll make a profit and their CEO will shave his head as per the deal.

And no, no "union of Space Republics" yet, though I did mention in fluff that Commune-1 participated in the UN Warp Gate project.

[Simon_Jester]

What year is it at game start (yes, I know we have multiple calendars) again?

[Steve]

What year is it at game start (yes, I know we have multiple calendars) again?

3400.

[Coyote]

Okay, honestly, I think it comes down to this.

If you have a system where alien races under your control are treated like utter, complete shit, with any rebellion ruthlessly suppressed... you'd be an asshole and we'd hate you, but that's not in of itself justification for putting the "Kick Me" sign on your nation profile. I suppose you could even call them "slaves" to a point and this principle would hold...

How about something like with the Ood, in the new Doctor Who series? They're a slave race, openly acknowledged as such, generally treated well as house servants (although there is also use for them in mining and other hard-labor activities), but in the case of the Ood it is because they are partially lobotomized to be docile...

[Steve]

Not quite on topic with what I was saying. I believe Jester summed up the function rather well.

[PeZook]

Hmmm...one would think train windows in the 5th millenium would be a little bit tougher