Ravengrim: Worthless Twat.

[Ravengrim]

I dont know why everyone gets so worked up about this. People have a right to be stupid, its not against the law, nor should it be. Let them be misguided if they want. Most of the arguments they have are completely ridiculous and most people will see them as such. Science is important, but its not the end-all and be-all of everything. People need opposing veiwpoints to make their own decision, even if you feel it is wrong. I feel that evolutionary theory is the most accurate explanation for most things of this nature, but I'll admit that I feel that it is flawed in some respects and doesnt make a complete, airtight case as many people seem to think it does. But that is just my opinion. Why should anyone else care what I think, or what those people think?

[Morilore]

I dont know why everyone gets so worked up about this. People have a right to be stupid, its not against the law, nor should it be. Let them be misguided if they want.

It's not just that they are stupid; they're teaching their stupidity to a further generation.

Most of the arguments they have are completely ridiculous and most people will see them as such.

Were that the case, the Kansas sticker would never have happened.

People need opposing veiwpoints to make their own decision, even if you feel it is wrong.

No. No, they don't. This line of reasoning only works with politics. And evolution isn't politics, it's science.

Teaching wrong ideas is bad.

I feel that evolutionary theory is the most accurate explanation for most things of this nature, but I'll admit that I feel that it is flawed in some respects and doesnt make a complete, airtight case as many people seem to think it does.

That's nice. I don't give a damn. Show me a degree and then maybe I'll listen.

But that is just my opinion. Why should anyone else care what I think, or what those people think?

Because they are teaching people that political activists know just as well as professional scientiests, and this precedent could potentially extend everywhere.

Think about it: science comes to a conclusion that makes them uncomfortable, so instead of facing reality, they try to vote it out of existence. They tried in the scientific community, they tried in the courts, and now they are trying it in the court of public opinion.

[General Zod]

I dont know why everyone gets so worked up about this. People have a right to be stupid, its not against the law, nor should it be. Let them be misguided if they want. Most of the arguments they have are completely ridiculous and most people will see them as such.

Maybe you're just dense, but you don't seem to be getting the point. Nobody's getting upset over people being stupid. They're getting upset over people wanting to get their stupidity officially sanctioned as fact and teach it to others.

Science is important, but its not the end-all and be-all of everything.
People need opposing veiwpoints to make their own decision, even if you feel it is wrong.

Opposing viewpoints are only valid when those viewpoints are legitimate theories. Creationism or ID are neither of these, and the only "controversy" that exists is the ones fundie morons are causing a shitstorm over. There isn't any in legitimate scientific communities.

I feel that evolutionary theory is the most accurate explanation for most things of this nature, but I'll admit that I feel that it is flawed in some respects and doesnt make a complete, airtight case as many people seem to think it does. But that is just my opinion. Why should anyone else care what I think, or what those people think?

There is a reason peer review exists. It keeps idiots from determining what is a legitimate scientific theory and limits it to those who know what they're doing. You wouldn't want imbeciles trying to get leeches passed off as a legitimate medical treatment for cancer because a handful of idiots cause a shitstorm would you? Then why the fuck would someone want idiots trying to get a fairy tale passed off as a legitimate answer to the origin of humanity?

[Ravengrim]

I cant show you a degree, I dont have one, at least not in biology. My point was not to convince you that I am right. My whole point was to state that, regardless of your despotic opinion, people have the right to believe what they want to believe. If evolution is an absolute truth, then no argument can stand against it and will eventually be shown as false, so why worry? My belief is that science should be concerned with bettering society and humanity in general, or else what is it good for? If tomorrow it were proven beyond all argument that evolution is absolutely true, what good would come of it? People still have to ge to work every day, they still have bills. There would still be hunger and disease and injustice. Basically both sides of the debate are fighting to be able to to point to the other and say 'HAH!! I TOLD you I was right!!!" Its a pointless argument that will never be won, unless we can go back in time and actually observe what happened. I just think its a lot of wasted energy that could be used somewhere else.

[General Zod]

>snip, blahblahblahblah<.

You're still not getting the point dimwit. There are no "absolute truths", but as it stands evolution is the best scientific theory that explains what's happened.

Yes, people have the right to be idiots. But people don't have the right to shove their idiocy onto someone else and try getting it proclaimed as fact. That's the whole fucking point.

[Quadlok]

I dont know why everyone gets so worked up about this. People have a right to be stupid, its not against the law, nor should it be. Let them be misguided if they want.

It's not just that they are stupid; they're teaching their stupidity to a further generation.

Exactly. As someone who was fed all this bullshit and more in grade school (it didn't stick, luckily) I can tell you that the way creationists present their arguements are quite convincing to impressionable young minds with a poor grasp of science.

[Ravengrim]

My point, again, is why the fuck do you care what they believe? If I could teach that the universe was shit out by an enormous turtle and convert millions of people to beleive that, WHY DO YOU CARE? Science has a knee-jerk reaction to any theory that it feels is unvalid. Your sentiments are no different than these creationist morons, and that is that yours is the only right theory, the only one worthy of consideration and the only one that people should hear. There are two sides of the argument, but the arrogance and intolerance is about the same on both sides.

[General Zod]

My point, again, is why the fuck do you care what they believe? If I could teach that the universe was shit out by an enormous turtle and convert millions of people to beleive that, WHY DO YOU CARE? Science has a knee-jerk reaction to any theory that it feels is unvalid. Your sentiments are no different than these creationist morons, and that is that yours is the only right theory, the only one worthy of consideration and the only one that people should hear. There are two sides of the argument, but the arrogance and intolerance is about the same on both sides.

Okay, you really are dense. For those that can't read, I'll try writing in bigger text.

NOBODY IS BITCHING ABOUT WHAT IDIOTS BELIEVE IN

There. Does that explain things a little better, or would you prefer mono-syllabic words?

[Quadlok]

My point, again, is why the fuck do you care what they believe? If I could teach that the universe was shit out by an enormous turtle and convert millions of people to beleive that, WHY DO YOU CARE? Science has a knee-jerk reaction to any theory that it feels is unvalid. Your sentiments are no different than these creationist morons, and that is that yours is the only right theory, the only one worthy of consideration and the only one that people should hear. There are two sides of the argument, but the arrogance and intolerance is about the same on both sides.

Jackass, their arguement is demonstrably false. The issue is that a false theory has no place being taught in schools, which is what these people want. The more converts they can get from misleading little tourists traps like this, the more likely their dream is to be realised, and then our country is fucked sideways in terms of science education.

[SirNitram]

If I could teach that the universe was shit out by an enormous turtle and convert millions of people to beleive that, WHY DO YOU CARE?

It's primitively simple, you worthless inbreed. You know all that medical brilliance we have? Yea, it's from science. Not bullshit like this crap they're spewing. Alot of it comes from understanding evolution and the mechanisms behind it. Do you get it yet? This shit saves lives. Throw in that teaching bullshit instead of science is going to kill the US economically in the long run, and maybe it'll get through.

[FedRebel]

My point was not to convince you that I am right. My whole point was to state that, regardless of your despotic opinion, people have the right to believe what they want to believe.

But do they have the right to force their beliefs on others?

What we're doing is color commentary and pointing and laughing.

These people (creationists in the article) Are actively trying to make others believe that their view is the correct one, and that the evil scientists are wrong.

If evolution is an absolute truth, then no argument can stand against it and will eventually be shown as false,

Evolution is not absolute, it's the best picture we have but it's a blurry one.

We tend to favor evolution because it has stood the test time and criticism and it does have the support of some tangable evidence.

Where as the Bible is one book lacking anything corporeal to support it.

so why worry?

Did you get to the dark ages and inquisitions in history class?

My belief is that science should be concerned with bettering society and humanity in general, or else what is it good for?

I think that is it's intent, but science and religon do have a shakey past.

And religon does have a simmilar goal only it's in the name of a particular diety or dieties

If tomorrow it were proven beyond all argument that evolution is absolutely true, what good would come of it?

If that were to happen individuals would desperately try to ratioonalize it with religion and churches would scramble to try and keep up attendance and deter pastuers from leaving.

Basically both sides of the debate are fighting to be able to to point to the other and say 'HAH!! I TOLD you I was right!!!" Its a pointless argument that will never be won,

The reason for the argument is the origin of life

the 'creationists' believe that TEH WORD is correct and feel that the alternative means that there is no God

the otherside just wants to find out how we came in existance and they have developed a resonable picture that they believe suppports evolution

unless we can go back in time and actually observe what happened. I just think its a lot of wasted energy that could be used somewhere else.

human biengs in general aren't the sharpest pencils in the box, so don't expect humanity to go about things logically

[Max]

Don't be afraid kids! It's only strawberries, the T-rex's favorite snack!

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5001/5001_01.asp

[Guardsman Bass]

Nice picture, mplsjocc. Like I said earlier, how the hell could those morons imagine these things would be just "hiding" in caves secret enough to make dragon-legends? Christ, the thing is 18 feet tall, and monstrous; hunting it would be a serious pain in the ass for a group of hunter-gatherers, assuming they could pull off the hunt at all.

[Darth Fanboy]

Ive been to those Dinsoaurs! Leave it to fundies to ruin the best tacky gift shop/toy store in the middle of the desert.

[Captain Cyran]

<Snip image>

Don't be afraid kids! It's only strawberries, the T-rex's favorite snack!

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5001/5001_01.asp

Worst part is... I can actually see them using something along those exact lines.

And Grim, like everyone has pointed out. We don't give a damn that they're stupid. Sure it's annoying but, oh well, they exist. It's the fact that they're trying to pass their fucked up delusions as the truth, and they want to teach it to future generations.

[Lord of the Abyss]

I cant show you a degree, I dont have one, at least not in biology. My point was not to convince you that I am right. My whole point was to state that, regardless of your despotic opinion, people have the right to believe what they want to believe. If evolution is an absolute truth, then no argument can stand against it and will eventually be shown as false, so why worry? My belief is that science should be concerned with bettering society and humanity in general, or else what is it good for? If tomorrow it were proven beyond all argument that evolution is absolutely true, what good would come of it? People still have to ge to work every day, they still have bills. There would still be hunger and disease and injustice. Basically both sides of the debate are fighting to be able to to point to the other and say 'HAH!! I TOLD you I was right!!!" Its a pointless argument that will never be won, unless we can go back in time and actually observe what happened. I just think its a lot of wasted energy that could be used somewhere else.

Evolutionary theory is a basic part of modern biological science, and therefore refusing to believe in it - or banning it Soviet style - would have all sorts of bad consequences.
The growing resistance of bacteria to antibiotics is a form of evolution; I'm sure these people would cheerfully ban research into new antibiotics. After all, such research is an implicit admission of evolution, and therefore sinful. The same goes for the resistance of insects to pesticides; evolution again.
Then there's cancer. When cancer cells breed out of control and rapidly mutate, they begin to evolve. This is a consideration in chemotherapy, since an imperfect treatment will kill the more vulnerable cells and let then more resistant replace them. Evolution in action. Should we let these people screw with people's chemotherapy because it's partly based on evolution.
Evolution is simply pervasive in modern biological science, and quite important in medicine. Forbidding it's mention or convincing people to ignore it is like eliminating entropy from physics. The result will be a crippled "science" with little relation to reality.

My point, again, is why the fuck do you care what they believe? If I could teach that the universe was shit out by an enormous turtle and convert millions of people to beleive that, WHY DO YOU CARE? Science has a knee-jerk reaction to any theory that it feels is unvalid. Your sentiments are no different than these creationist morons, and that is that yours is the only right theory, the only one worthy of consideration and the only one that people should hear. There are two sides of the argument, but the arrogance and intolerance is about the same on both sides.

Why do I care ? Besides the above reasons, evolution is right and creationism is wrong; wrong to the point of being stupid and dangerous. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming, the evidence for creationism zero. You might as well claim Star Wars was a documentery. In terms of facts, there is no "other side of the arguement"; evolution has the only ammo. Putting creationism up as a valid alternative is just stupid.

If these people would leave the rest of us alone, I wouldn't care; I'd let them wallow in ignorance and ban germ theory among themselves or whatever new silliness they come with next. They won't leave us alone; they won't stop until they drag everyone on Earth back into the Dark Ages.

[Max]

One more:

[Bob the Gunslinger]

The sad thing is that I used to stop at the CA dino pit stop every time I went to Palm Springs. Now I can't do that anymore... I guess all my pit-stop money's going to Hadley's.

Another childhood memory truned sour.

[Ravengrim]

I never said I dont agree with evolution. I never said that the fundies were right. I certainly dont feel that creationism should be taught in science classes, but I feel that some sort of religious history or philosophy should be taught in schools in an objective manner. Knowledge is never a bad thing, and the more information someone has the better their ability to form a decision. Now speaking practically, I can see a million ways this could go horribly wrong, but I think that something similar should be in place.

And about creation being demonstrably false, it has been brought up that there is no such thing as an absolute truth. If I control the rules of evidence I can prove or disprove anything, fundies have been doing it for years, remember? True and false are simply a point of view. Anyway, I was more wondering why people get so worked up about thier antics? If the government passed a law saying that creationism is law, would you convert? The wonderful thing about being a human is no one can control what you think or believe.

Id like to thank FedRebel for actually replying to my post like an adult. Probably the main reason I dont understand as well as I'd like to is that the minute you bring up any evolution objections, most evolutionists fly off the handle and begin making personal attacks. Pretty lame for people who claim to believe in a measured, logical thing like science.

[Zero]

My point, again, is why the fuck do you care what they believe? If I could teach that the universe was shit out by an enormous turtle and convert millions of people to beleive that, WHY DO YOU CARE? Science has a knee-jerk reaction to any theory that it feels is unvalid. Your sentiments are no different than these creationist morons, and that is that yours is the only right theory, the only one worthy of consideration and the only one that people should hear. There are two sides of the argument, but the arrogance and intolerance is about the same on both sides.

If people believed that jumping off of cliffs brought them happiness, I would take issue, because others are being harmed. In this case, undereducated children are subjected to lies and misleading information to make them believe in something that's a complete lie, and the educational state of our contry takes several steps backwards. That creates a problem for many people in the US, not just those who are being stupid.

Do you not see why truth should be valued? Do you not see why oppinion shouldn't have anything to do with what's displayed as science? If you don't, then you may seriously want to think about why you're on this board, and if you should stay.

[SirNitram]

Id like to thank FedRebel for actually replying to my post like an adult. Probably the main reason I dont understand as well as I'd like to is that the minute you bring up any evolution objections, most evolutionists fly off the handle and begin making personal attacks. Pretty lame for people who claim to believe in a measured, logical thing like science.

'OH NOZ, YOU SAID DER BAD WORDZ!' Really, are you dickwad newbies even reading the announcements here anymore?

As for 'No absolute truth' and 'demonstratably false', are you even literate? Just because something cannot be proven to be absolutely true, this does not mean it's impossible to demonstrate something to be false. Or do you just think that lying is gonna make you some sort of debate points?

[Noble Ire]

Anyway, I was more wondering why people get so worked up about thier antics? If the government passed a law saying that creationism is law, would you convert? The wonderful thing about being a human is no one can control what you think or believe.

If the Fundies were able to actual gain enough control to enact such a policy, do you think it would stop with simply making Creationism "official"? No, belief in Creationism means the partial or full rejection of a great many of the scientific fields, including medicine. That would be disasterous for our standard of living, economic stability, and hope for future scientific advancement. A government may not be able to control one's own beliefs fully, but they can repress those who oppose them, and spread their viewpoint over newer generations. Even barring this complete takeover, the spread of Creationism and the ignorance it entails can be nothing but destructive.


Probably the main reason I dont understand as well as I'd like to is that the minute you bring up any evolution objections, most evolutionists fly off the handle and begin making personal attacks. Pretty lame for people who claim to believe in a measured, logical thing like science.

You do realize that typically, "Evolutionist" is a derogatory term. HOw can you claim to have some "mature" high ground when you spew vitirol yourself?

[Lord of the Abyss]

I never said I dont agree with evolution. I never said that the fundies were right. I certainly dont feel that creationism should be taught in science classes, but I feel that some sort of religious history or philosophy should be taught in schools in an objective manner. Knowledge is never a bad thing, and the more information someone has the better their ability to form a decision. Now speaking practically, I can see a million ways this could go horribly wrong, but I think that something similar should be in place.

If someone tried that, the fundies would scream like banshees. They don't want religious history or philosophy or anything else taught in an objective manner. They want all children taught their way and their beliefs are the only truth, and you'll BURN IN HELL !! if you disagree.

And about creation being demonstrably false, it has been brought up that there is no such thing as an absolute truth. If I control the rules of evidence I can prove or disprove anything, fundies have been doing it for years, remember? True and false are simply a point of view. Anyway, I was more wondering why people get so worked up about thier antics? If the government passed a law saying that creationism is law, would you convert? The wonderful thing about being a human is no one can control what you think or believe.

Absolute truth, outside of pure mathematics is unknowable. True beyond a reasonable doubt we can do; we can also show that something is false beyond a reasonable doubt. Evolution is the first; creationism is the second.

Since you failed to hear me the first time creationism can kill people. False biology is a bad thing to base medicine on. And no, I wouldn't convert. The government can push all the religious lies it want, I'm not stupid enough to believe it.

Id like to thank FedRebel for actually replying to my post like an adult. Probably the main reason I dont understand as well as I'd like to is that the minute you bring up any evolution objections, most evolutionists fly off the handle and begin making personal attacks. Pretty lame for people who claim to believe in a measured, logical thing like science.

We get angry because, scientifically, this debate was over decades ago. Evolutionists call creationists names because if you are a creationist you are, by definition, a fool.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The T-Rex was a vegetarian? I wonder what kind of plants they ate in order to need teeth like theirs.

[Surlethe]

And about creation being demonstrably false, it has been brought up that there is no such thing as an absolute truth. If I control the rules of evidence I can prove or disprove anything, fundies have been doing it for years, remember? True and false are simply a point of view.

Go read up on the scientific method before you spout sophistry.

Id like to thank FedRebel for actually replying to my post like an adult. Probably the main reason I dont understand as well as I'd like to is that the minute you bring up any evolution objections, most evolutionists fly off the handle and begin making personal attacks. Pretty lame for people who claim to believe in a measured, logical thing like science.

"Evolutionists"? As far as I've seen, only creationists use that term. So, the question: are you a creationist?