Best/Worst military forces in Science Fiction

[Blayne]

I don't really buy that though, they spent billions of dollars on the Stargate program, notwithstanding the Daedalus program; they could have renovated the SGC if need be once the full scale of their task was known. It's not like NORAD was a natural cave system they hollowed out that mountain specifically for it.

[Batman]

They spent billions of dollars on the Stargate program as it was and that program was on several occasions a hair's breadth from being shut down because it wasn't worth the expense but you think they'd majorly reconstruct SGC so they can get tiny armoured vehicles of dubious utility through the Gate.
The size limit of the Gate is one hell of a logistical bottleneck. There's a reason the Tau'ri established exactly zero serious offworld outposts (even the Alpha sites were little more than semipermanent shacks and tents). You want to operate any serious vehicles offworld, you need to establish a support structure offworld, and the Gate makes that while not impossible incredibly inconvenient.

[Captain Seafort]

They spent billions of dollars on the Stargate program as it was and that program was on several occasions a hair's breadth from being shut down because it wasn't worth the expense but you think they'd majorly reconstruct SGC so they can get tiny armoured vehicles of dubious utility through the Gate.

A Bradley is hardly tiny, or of dubious utility. And it can get through the gate. Everything I've read gives the gate's diameter as 22 feet. A Bradley is about 11.85 feet wide and tall - maximum dimensions corner-to-corner of 16.8 feet. An Abrams would fit even easier (12x8 ft, max of 14.5 ft). The only limitations are getting them into the gate room.

[Blayne]

Also we have to presume that quite simply the show operated under budgetary restraints and scripted it in terms of being writers/producers; and didn't sit down with the Airforce and Army and seriously ask the question of "How would we fight a interplanetary war using just this wormhole?" The politics around the gate are for all intents and purposes a contrivance of next to zero plausibility that we ignored because it helped make for a good show.

I'm not asking for turning SG1 into SG1 As Interpreted by Michael Bay or You Know Who but forgive me for being disappointed that the Starship Trooper-esque opportunity for fully fleshed out military scifi as speculative fiction was missed.

Looking at it realistically I don't see how, considering the Post-9/11 political and security climate an *actual* existential threat to not only the United States but the entire world being dismissed, I see it's budget instead being radically stepped up as information comes in; and the capabilities for the rapid deployment of Marines and Allied Expeditionary forces being expanded to the point an entire division can be transported in less than an hour.

Look at how much we've poured into the GWoT which only exists to give money the to military-industrial complex and barely registers, objectively as a threat to national security? You honestly see the government and mil-ind lobbyists just *backing away* from this opportunity? Kah-ching.

I'm honestly not going Full Mil-Wank here, I'm not the kind of guy who honestly felt that "Star Trek would be better if the Federation destroyed planets more often just because." However I do feel that it at least would've been interesting if we saw the full potential and capability of the top world's militaries on display once in a while. We saw something kinda sorta like it in Stargate Universe when they went after the Lucian Alliance but it's a poor substitute.

Kinda why I really liked Battle for LA; I got my fix.

[Batman]

And we absolutely see no such thing in other televised SciFi-oh wait, we do, in none other than Trek itself, where murdereizing your superior officer is not only an admissible but expected part of both the Mirror Universe and TNG Klingon path of promotion.

And yet both these regimes lasted longer than the Empire.

Which has jack all to do with the topic of discussion?

I can't think of a time when a Klingon was executed for failure the way Vader did his thing. In Star Trek III, Kruge kills a guy, but it was for insubordination rather than failure; the guy took his "lucky shot" against orders to get prisoners. Other Klingon killings are justified somehow - there are laws of honor, vengence, cowardice, and so on.

Not that I see were Vader being a murderizing dick figures into the quality of the Imperial military in general (hint-there's exactly one of him) and I'm sorry, there's an incredibly amount of things that may make sense for a given culture to do yet be incredibly stupid militarily. You don't get to dismiss them being stupid just because it's a stupid thing they're expected to do.

In "A Matter of Honor" TNG, we see some of a Klingon ship's workings when Riker spends some time aboard one. There's a fight over insubordination, and a death threat over treason. When Riker relieves the Klingon captain, he had to justify it to the crew. The captain's revenge had to wait until Riker sneered at him.

So not all Klingon's are morons.

In a later episode, when Worf kills Duras, it wasn't just because he could. He had to justify it with Klingon law, following an accepted procedure for revenge.

Accepted procedure does not equal not stupid but as so far you've provided only anecdotal evidence I fail to see how this is relevant.

Whether it was commanders dishing out punishment or crew eyeing for promotion, there is some kind of governing law. It isn't based on arbitrary whim. Klingons follow their commanders out of respect, not fear. This is a more sustainable form of loyalty.

Which is why killing your Captain if you think he's a dick totally isn't an acceptable way to take his post...Oh wait.

Now, contrast that to the executions we see the Imperial regime carry out. Vader executes a Rebel prisoner shortly after storming the ship, just because he could. Vader used potentially deadly force on that guy who questioned his faith.... just because he could.

And Vader is naturally a representative example of how the Imperial Navy works in day-to-day matters.

Leia's execution order came from Tarkin's personal whim. At the beginning of the movie, she was in good legal standing. Between then and the "terminate her, immediately" order, she didn't actually do anything except give disinformation under distress, which pissed him off.

Which had absolutely no bearing on the Imperial Navy?

They eliminated potential intelligence assets just.... because. Another systemic problem. A military without intel sources isn't very effective.

And you gathered that being standard Imperial military procedure from...where, exactly? And just to be my onoxious self, they didn't eliminate her. Leia lived on to be a mother (unfortunately).

Moreover, the Imperial regime and the military are one in the same.

Says who?

Note Governor Tarkin has been military his whole career, but also has the civilian title and "direct control over his territories". A problem with their government is a problem with their military and vice versa.

Because-you say so.

Of course, in The Empire Strikes Back, Vader executes those two guys for screwing up. The captain who lost the Falcon... omg, that's Captain Needa, "apology accepted", lol. But anyway, what example does that set to other officers? If you make a mistake, don't try to learn and certainly don't apologize... you'd have better odds defecting to the rebellion!

Which tells us...nothing about the Empire military other than not being in the part of it that Skywalker Sr is currently in touch with is something very much to be desired?

In Return of the Jedi, the guy in charge of the Death Star construction, Jerjerrod iirc, made promises he couldn't keep because he feared Vader and the Emperor going wild on him.

Actually, we don't know that. Those darned Rebels blew it up so we never got to see wether or not Jerjerrod would have come through.

How are the commanders going to make informed decisions when they intimidate their people into telling them what they want to hear instead of getting forthright, honest estimates? How many blunders does this lead to?

A lot. Since this happens in every fucking military in exitence, including pretty much every SciFi one I know of, this makes Wars the worst how exactly?

Speaking of going by-the-book, what was it Kirk (the Federation's hero captain, at that) did in TWOK that damn near got his ship shot out from under him?

Yeah, the regulations exist for a reason. Had he followed it, things would have turned out differently.

Except he didn't. And that was a) when Kirk, who is admittedly not a stickler to rules, had every reason to follow them for a change, and b) during the era when Starfleet made no bones of being a military institution.

And if this is about the exhaust shaft you're full of it.

I'm talking about the big picture. The Imperial regime is highly centralized and single-minded. The Death Star represents this as a concept, not just as a specific design.

Which is why everybody but Tarkin (including Skywalker Sr, by the way) didn't consider the project a patently useless idea. Oh wait.

They put all their eggs in one basket, so to speak.

Given that either DS represented an infinitesimal fraction of the Empire's resources, no, I don't think they did.

Instead of having an egalitarian training process, you have commanders dishing out punishment for "failure", inventing strategies on personal whim, and factionalizing for personal gain. This means they don't work very well together, and if you lose one of your few exceptional officers, that's a stupendous problem, since you probably don't have someone to take his place.

Kinda like TNG Klingons, you mean? And I really like how you generalize from Vader doing it to that being standard procedure in the Imperial Military.

Instead of a comprehensive, holistic approach to building loyalty, they built an enormous Death Star. It can only be in one place at once, it can be defeated in a single blow, and it is part of the idiotic, self-defeating doctrine of fear.

The DS represented a minuscule fraction of the Empire's resources and it would have worked as intended if it hadn't been for a)Luke and b) Tarkin being a moron. Release the DS' whole TIE fighter complement-Luke is a fatality, Yavin IV gets blown to smithereens, end of the rebellion.

Imagine if the Empire had a different approach. Instead of "the Rebellion threatens our starfleet, BUILD BIGGER SHIPS. The Rebellion defeated our Death Star, BUILD BIGGER DEATH STAR", they went with "violence is helping the rebels, let's try food stamps."

Which doesn't tell us beans about the competence of the Imperial military?

if any serious TIE Fighter screen would have been up.

Another failure of Imperial military doctrine. When Kirk screwed up, one of his officers reminded him of the written rule telling him he was in the wrong.

And guess what? Tarkin was informed there was a danger, and he blithely dismissed it.
[quote[Where was the Imperial Saavik?

Right there in ANH?

Either way, this shows a major problem. Tarkin's personal problem of overconfidence should have been corrected by a system of some sort.

Like Kirk's overconfidence was corrected in TWOK? Oh wait.

How, pray tell, did the Death Star fail? Yeah, it got blown up, but it nevertheless managed to blow up Alderaan first.

Blowing up Alderaan isn't success. Militaries don't exist just to blow stuff up. They are tools for politicians to use toward some particular goal.
The goal there was to crush the Rebellion, and the DS did the opposite. It was hailed as the Rebellion's major victory, the point where the war started to be won.

The operative term being 'it was hailed as'. As of TESB and ROTJ the Rebellion was still decidedly on the defensive, and even the ROTJ attack was a desperate all-or nothing gamble.

[Guardsman Bass]

Some of Halo's human incompetence in ground combat can be explained as almost all the prime resources, personnel, and planning being dedicated towards space combat, which is where the generation-long war was actually being decided (and which humanity was losing at). Ground combat research, planning, and technology got the short end of that, aside from what was left of the Spartan program.

As for the Death Stars, they made more sense in some of the EU, where it was a weapons platform designed to blast through planetary shields and avoid the sieges that had happened in the Clone Wars (such as the "Outer Rim Sieges" mentioned in Labyrinth of Evil and maybe Revenge of the Sith). It doesn't quite make sense that it would be built to be so resistant on its own against attack - what if Tarkin had gone nuts after Vader left, and decided he wants to blow the Emperor away and seize power?

[Blayne]

Isn't the whole Klingon promotion thing hinted at like in the books as the exception rather than the norm? Sure the *laws* and traditions are there but they are still rarely invoked because of the self fulfilling prophecy nature of the whole thing. Klingon commanders are generally seen to have earned their positions through merit and for SUPERIOR KLINGONISMO; and Klingons who get command positions are ones with a certain inborn drive, strength, cultural sense of versilmilitude and ambition to in general appear like their tough powerful Klingons; that coupled with presumably a decent general war college lead with enough respect and KLINGON HONAH that 90% of the time they hold their positions and only leave them when promoted or transferred.

With the actual *klingon promotions* happening for exceptional cases, with the laws and traditions on the books to justify it; sometimes we see this works out horribly and sometimes it works out well, heck Riker was able to, despite not being a Klingon hold his own and earn the respect of his surrogate Klingon crew. Clearly there's a lot of institutional inertia for a Klingon to respect authority and their commanders, to accept their decisions to offer only token questioning of it.

Because honestly how many times does it actually happen? Especially in DS9 where an endemic issue of Klingon Promotion would've crippled the Imperial fleet, no?

[Stark]

As a counterpoint to all these scifi militaries that fundamentally destroyed their own successes and collapsed from within, there was a collection of a few dozen space orbitals that very nearly conquered the entire world.



They lost in the end due to inescapable logistical and industrial factors, but they deserve points for a broadly successful 'alien invasion' that was driven by (and forced in their opponents) broad-ranging innovation and new technologies. If only powerful states didn't intrinsically crush their own elements of success in the shackles of gravity?

[Blayne]

I have to get back to Gundam one of these days, the last series I watched was SEED/DESTINY; which I liked it was a step up from Wing. I like the increasing emphasis on being something more like a military scifi thriller and less on MAGIC UNOBTANIUM SUPERWEAPONS; have any of them managed to tone down the Lensman arm race power creep? (Ironically Wing was the only one I've seen that wasn't *as* ridiculous as the end of Seed/Destiny)

Strategically what I *do* like about MS Gundam is that they kind seem to be ahead of the curve regarding military trends, like the "Island of Pearls" strategy that occurs in some of them and the notion that stealth, ECM and jamming technologies will get to the point to make BVR combat obsolete (Which is starting to happen *right now*). Also I like how the Japanese write military thrillers, at least when their writers get preachy its not as annoying as Clancy.

It's hard to think of specific examples of excellent militaries or incompetent ones in the MS metaverse from my limited experience with it, the more idiot decisions seem generally motivated when one side puts racial purity or hatreds above common sense and not really system to the institution or establishment. Destiny and Seed had a few memorable pitched battle engagements that were pretty damn memorable and had both sides responding intelligently, probably due to the lack of any superweapons on the field either time.

Orbital Shock/Colony drop might seem like a good military decision to throw the enemy military in disarray, but on the other hand it's the friggin premise of virtually every gundam ever so it's hard to pin down.

[Simon_Jester]

Which has jack all to do with the topic of discussion?

It has everything to do with it. My main thrust is that the Imperial military was so broken that its own flaws led to the downfall of the regime it was supposed to protect, which makes it the worst military in sci-fi that I've seen. It's culture was destructive.

Now, now, there are other militaries that screwed up that badly.

Bad, totally, though.

Isn't the whole Klingon promotion thing hinted at like in the books as the exception rather than the norm? Sure the *laws* and traditions are there but they are still rarely invoked because of the self fulfilling prophecy nature of the whole thing. Klingon commanders are generally seen to have earned their positions through merit and for SUPERIOR KLINGONISMO; and Klingons who get command positions are ones with a certain inborn drive, strength, cultural sense of versilmilitude and ambition to in general appear like their tough powerful Klingons; that coupled with presumably a decent general war college lead with enough respect and KLINGON HONAH that 90% of the time they hold their positions and only leave them when promoted or transferred.

I'm reminded of Marine Corps senior officers, who tend to come across as tough hardboiled warrior-types, because that's the attitude the Marines promote in their officer corps and the ones who can't adopt it at least as protective camouflage don't get promoted because they don't really click with the other Marines.

I can imagine a situation where there are restrictions on when a junior officer is allowed to challenge a senior. Or when a junior officer who's unpopular or generally viewed as an asshole tries to challenge his senior, his peers quietly organize a beating for him so he can't show up to the duel. Or some other mechanism that, while nasty and unpleasant and arguably stupid, at least stops all the competent senior officers from getting killed by murderous underlings.

[Stark]

There's plenty of typical scifi stupidity around; lots of leaders mad with power, ignorant politicians, backstabbing corporations, shadow governments etc... but rather than something fans pick up on 20 years later, its intrinsic to the setting. Zeon's invasion and failure are part of mankind's story; the Zabi family and the military industrial complex are just players on that stage.

I've only watched UC stuff, and it doesn't have the super power attack DBZ power creep business that I hear about in the other varieties - but neither does 00. Indeed, the near future of the setting has no newtypes at all (Victory Gundam).

The IGLOO stuff this video is from has some great examples of the post-Minkovsky environment; guys using wire-guided missiles, where the interference is so intense that the missile can barely even fly straight and the target indicator leaps spastically around the screen. The shift to the type of combat they use is thus organic and effective rather than retarded self-handicapping, and directly leads to the perversion of newtypes that is so central to the personal conflicts. I just think the Zeon invasion is a good counterpoint to typical scifi failures; while there are better examples of professional or effective military actions (and certainly more ultimately successful ones), its the sort of grand scale much of scifi totally fails to achieve.

Oh, and they have sweet high-yield combat. :V

[Daefaron]

The correct way to approach a destroyed bridge is to just drive into the void and die.

So, let's look at this.

No combat air patrol/air superiority = let's roll in with slow, vulnerable tilt rotors with zero capacity to defend themselves or ground forces against enemy air cover.

Massive open plain to cross to engage = let's use unarmoured patrol vehicles to get there.

You know the location of the enemy LZ that you are sending your main force against, but you haven't tried to smash their beachhead with artillery/bombing/EVERYTHING why?

That's pretty fucking bad.

A: The main beachhead drop areas are covered by a shield.
B: The area had sensor jamming/blocking equipment, which hadn't been destroyed just yet.
C: Have you flown those tilt rotors? They are pretty dang effective against banshees. Also, those warthogs are also effective anti-air against banshees.
D: They had tanks as well.
E: Note how early on you destroy heavy AA guns. AKA, the bombers couldn't bomb the area without being shot out of the sky.
F: Actually, those 'unarmored patrol vehicles" are very nice for combat. Hell, I wouldn't depict them as so weak anyway, cause look how one takes a wraith blast directly infront of it. It flips, and keeps driving. The gunner was tossed out and killed, but the vehicle kept going.

Also, the assault rifle of halo does have sights.

The MA5B has concealed iron sights, although not seen in gameplay. It is used by Marines and other personnel with improper equipment to uploading a targeting reticule to the user's heads-up display or neural interface.

(source being, contact harvest)

They do have artillery tanks. Halo Wars showcases one of them. A few infact, if you take deployed cobra's as artillery.

The UNSC also hadn't fought any true wars for... close to 300 years before the rebels, then Covenant arrived.

That jump done in the warthog, while it may have been somewhat a stupid move, it was required. Note that down THAT path was the first heavy AA turret. Therefore, if they didn't try the jump, they wouldn't have tried at all to disable the AA blocking their air support and bombers from moving it.

Blayne's comment about the swapping of batteries for Covenant small arms was sarcasm of the "Cause the games don't show it therefore it can't happen."

It's canon system is now one of "Games do not auto-override books." Halo Reach and the Fall of Reach do match. It just takes thinking. At the same time, 343 has released items to cover the gaps.

Seriously, if you have questions about halo canon, toss them to me cause I know all the lore, or know somebody who can get the answers for things I can't answer myself.



Really, off the top of my head. Empire would be among the worst military. For a single reason, they went more for intimidation then usefulness. The ISD cannot bring it's heavy guns to bear forward, the Venator can. The Venator was a useful ship, retired only because it reminded people of the republic. Same for the AT-TE, which was far better (IMO), then the AT-AT as a primary walker. The LAAT was a superb gunship and dropship, yet was also discarded as a primary troop transport.

[Ford Prefect]

A: The main beachhead drop areas are covered by a shield.
B: The area had sensor jamming/blocking equipment, which hadn't been destroyed just yet.
C: Have you flown those tilt rotors? They are pretty dang effective against banshees. Also, those warthogs are also effective anti-air against banshees.
D: They had tanks as well.
E: Note how early on you destroy heavy AA guns. AKA, the bombers couldn't bomb the area without being shot out of the sky.
F: Actually, those 'unarmored patrol vehicles" are very nice for combat. Hell, I wouldn't depict them as so weak anyway, cause look how one takes a wraith blast directly infront of it. It flips, and keeps driving. The gunner was tossed out and killed, but the vehicle kept going.

G: The drove off the end of a broken bridge like lemmings.

[Daefaron]

Only two went over the bridge after it blew. The Spartans, and the following warthog. The one before the Spartans turned to rejoin the primary column of vehicles. The warthog behind the Spartans you see hitting the bridge most likely saw that the vehicle infront of it did manage to clear the jump. Or were forced into that path by a wraith blast. Regardless, your point is moot and restricted to a single, army, driver.

Also, since I apparently can't edit my last post. The warthogs do have titanium armor, though it's light.

And given they can have alt weapon sets (A gauss cannon or a missile pod), it is a decent vehicle for combat.

Infact, looking at the cutscene, I'd wager that shortly after the Spartan's warthog had landed, more of the bridge had collapsed. Thus if the following one didn't see/notice, and thought they could still clear it, they'd try and hit like they did.

[Alyrium Denryle]

A Bradley is hardly tiny, or of dubious utility. And it can get through the gate. Everything I've read gives the gate's diameter as 22 feet. A Bradley is about 11.85 feet wide and tall - maximum dimensions corner-to-corner of 16.8 feet. An Abrams would fit even easier (12x8 ft, max of 14.5 ft). The only limitations are getting them into the gate room.

The max diameter of the gate is not important. The diameter at point of entry is. They have to be able to fit that object through the gate, and have it make it out safely on the other end. To get a bradley or Abrams through the gate would require lifting said vehicle to the point that the wheel/trackbase will clear the gate, hope it fits through on the dorsal side as well, and then not have the machine damaged when it goes through on the other end and falls upon rematerialization.

Such vehicles are also of marginal utility. There are very few missions where they would be useful, given that many SG1 missions require more stealth and cunning than brute force. They hide, they attack from surprise etc. Very rare are frontal assaults, and most likely, they would not be effective anyway. You cannot hide a tank. And a tank or two would not be effective against an enemy with vast technological superiority.

There may be conditions where this is not true, perhaps we simply dont see them, but it is difficult for me right now, not having every episode laid out before me, to think of one where huge amounts of miltoys would matter for much.

Looking at it realistically I don't see how, considering the Post-9/11 political and security climate an *actual* existential threat to not only the United States but the entire world being dismissed, I see it's budget instead being radically stepped up as information comes in; and the capabilities for the rapid deployment of Marines and Allied Expeditionary forces being expanded to the point an entire division can be transported in less than an hour.

Did 9/11 even happen in Stargate?

The ships of the human military were not designed with pure fighting in mind, lots of wasted space, giant weakpoints, weapon placements that look good but have to much overlap and blind spots.

Well, some of that is in design tradeoffs. I cannot comment on the wasted space, but take the Omega. Big rotating sections allow for longer deployment times etc, but introduce obvious blind spots in close-in weaponry and are an obvious target. That said, these ships do not have shields. None of them do, save for those ships built or designed by older races. The defense grid might attenuate incomming beam weapons, but our evidence for that is inconclusive. Either way, it does not take much to bring these ships down with weapons in the high megawatt (for anti-fighter pulse guns) to low terrawatt (anti-ship beam weapons and heavy plasma cannons) range, so the best option is concentrating fire on a single arc, and hope to bring your enemy down before they can shoot back. Unless I am seriously mistaken there. It is what I would likely do. These ships can also rotate on their own axes as if on a dime, while their acceleration is necessarily slow due to rotating sections. Lack of heavy weapons coverage might not be that big a detriment.

I'm sorry, Sheridan's whole career is only possible given staggering levels of incompetence by virtually everyone else, especially that civil war business, where his alliance to a species more hated on Earth than Al Quaeda is today in USA somehow wasn't spun into crippling propaganda defeat.

Are you high?

Minbari ships kick the shit out of earth ships, but it is not because of superior defensive capability against weapons that actually hit them. It is because their weapons are vastly superior, and because their jamming tech makes earth ships close to knife-fighting range under accurate fire from said superior weapons in order to engage. In order to target a Minbari ship, they have to get close enough to target from visuals. They get cut to bits before that happens. Multimegaton warheads are not at all equivalent to a couple of hand grenades. The trouble is getting them to their target. He mined an asteroid field. It worked.

As for their attitude toward the Minbari, it is not hate. There is SOME of that, but it is not all-consuming. The attitudes we see vary greatly, within both the military and civilian populations. Just like you would expect it to after ten years of peaceful and productive relations--even if after a war as horrifying as the Earth-Minbari war.

people treat guys speaking things that look outright ridiculous today (Technomages) seriously

Things get different when the crazy people can actually DO the things they claim to be able to do.

Why anyone in Babylon universe bothers with shooting pretty lasers when automated ships armed only with jump engines would quickly defeat every B5 universe navy, by either killing ships with jump points or killing fleets with 2 jump point collisions is beyond me. It's like US navy of WW2 vintage using nuclear bombs not to bomb, but merely to move their ships around somehow

A) Jump-points are not accurate enough to use in a combat situation. The Minbari could only do it in In The Beginning because they lured the humans to a pre-determined point.

B) Taking out jump gates destabilizes the beacon network, and can destroy interstellar travel for everyone.

[Captain Seafort]

The max diameter of the gate is not important. The diameter at point of entry is. They have to be able to fit that object through the gate, and have it make it out safely on the other end. To get a bradley or Abrams through the gate would require lifting said vehicle to the point that the wheel/trackbase will clear the gate, hope it fits through on the dorsal side as well, and then not have the machine damaged when it goes through on the other end and falls upon rematerialization.

Not difficult - send an ROV or dismounted infantry with a tape measure through ahead, check that the terrain and width of the ramp are suitable, and if so send your vehicles through. I've already demonstrated that they'll fit (the ring is a lot less than five feet wide), all you'd need to do would be to lower the aerials.

Such vehicles are also of marginal utility. There are very few missions where they would be useful, given that many SG1 missions require more stealth and cunning than brute force. They hide, they attack from surprise etc. Very rare are frontal assaults, and most likely, they would not be effective anyway. You cannot hide a tank. And a tank or two would not be effective against an enemy with vast technological superiority.

I'm not suggesting they send an armoured battlegroup through on every trip - merely that they maintain the capability to send heavy forces through if appropriate to the circumstances. Since most staff blasts do relatively little damage to people (they're usually fatal, but a glancing hit is survivable, and even a direct hit rarely even passes through the body) an armoured vehicle should be well-protected against anti-personnel weapons, in addition to near-misses from heavier stuff. Death Gliders are vulnerable to MANPADS (not sure about the heavier atmospheric vehicles) so air defence vehicles would be effective against them. Finally, they'd provide far superior mobility and firepower than any foot SG team could manage.

[RogueIce]

Did 9/11 even happen in Stargate?

I don't recall if they ever mentioned 9/11 directly, but part of Sheppard's backstory in SGA has him doing missions in Afghanistan, so probably yes.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Not difficult - send an ROV or dismounted infantry with a tape measure through ahead, check that the terrain and width of the ramp are suitable, and if so send your vehicles through. I've already demonstrated that they'll fit (the ring is a lot less than five feet wide), all you'd need to do would be to lower the aerials.

Lower them how? You cannot do it through the gate, and what will you do, build a crane mechanism or mechanically complicated ramp that can support the mass? If there is a mission that would require that level of firepower, your beach-head becomes a massive target.

Death Gliders are vulnerable to MANPADS (not sure about the heavier atmospheric vehicles) so air defence vehicles would be effective against them

Al'kesh are shielded.

[Captain Seafort]

Lower them how?

Unscrew them and lay them on the back of the vehicle. Screw them back in when you get to the other side of the gate.

If there is a mission that would require that level of firepower, your beach-head becomes a massive target.

I'm not suggesting they hang around long enough to become a target, or establish a bridgehead - go through, duff up the local Goauld, accomplish whatever mission you have to and get out. As I said, it won't be suitable for every trip through the gate, but I fail to see how having the capability to deploy a force with vastly superior firepower, mobility, protection and cargo capacity than a foot SG team is a bad thing.

Al'kesh are shielded.

Then you either try and avoid them, hope sufficient simultaneous hits can punch through the shields, or rig a SAM version of the Falcon and stay buttoned up. At the very least armoured vehicles are both more mobile and less vulnerable to near misses than people on foot.

[Alkaloid]

No, but they're not trained for offworld missions, they're not carrying anything in equipment except for their ready ammunition (whatever that may be for what is essentially a glorified door guard), they're not trained nor outfitted to do much besides call in an alert and open fire if they're told to/there's obvious hostiles coming through the Gate. People going through the Gate need to be able to deal with the Gate closing on them for a considerable time, not to mention interact with the natives. SG teams are trained for that. The Gate guards are not. I can't think of a single instance where the measly adition in firepower offered by the Gate guards would have made a difference in a mission. Heavily armed reinforcements, hell yes, but not those poor sods whose only advantage is they're already in the Gate room.

They don't need to be, they aren't doing an offworld mission where they are going to be out of contact or isolated for any period of time unless they're already dead. I can think of a few examples, the most specific one being the Heroes two parter, where there is an SG team offworld, presently under fire, and Hammond orders three SG teams sent to assist. No unusually heavy gear, less trained troops, less people overall, and taking the extra time to assemble and arm people who are not on standby, in the room, ready to go. It's all well and good to say they are just glorified gate guards, but they are still trained professionals who should at least be capable of going up against Jaffa or Ori troops. There is no reason not to use them, especially when you know whats on the other side and whether or not they are going to get bottlenecked at the gate exit and you plan is to send infantry through anyway.

I'm not suggesting they send an armoured battlegroup through on every trip - merely that they maintain the capability to send heavy forces through if appropriate to the circumstances. Since most staff blasts do relatively little damage to people (they're usually fatal, but a glancing hit is survivable, and even a direct hit rarely even passes through the body) an armoured vehicle should be well-protected against anti-personnel weapons, in addition to near-misses from heavier stuff. Death Gliders are vulnerable to MANPADS (not sure about the heavier atmospheric vehicles) so air defence vehicles would be effective against them. Finally, they'd provide far superior mobility and firepower than any foot SG team could manage.

Two problems with that. First, the gate is where it is for a reason, that reason being that they have no idea what is in most of the galaxy and has access to the gate network, and if something comes through and everything goes to shit having it under a mountain means they can literally drop a whole damn mountain on the thing to plug it up. Having a standing force of vehicles ready to go through means you need a lot of space around it just for storage, workshops and garage space, not to mention an assembly area in front of the gate, which means that you cannot have the gate underground and are thus more vulnerable to attacks through it.
Second, they are actively trying to avoid escalating the conflict with the Goa'uld. Four enemy soldiers escaping your elite guard is annoying. An armoured battlegroup rolling through your elite guard and freeing those four soldiers is an existential threat to your forces and needs to be countered aggressively and Earth was for most of the show incapable of taking out one Ha'tak without a whole lot of luck or outside assistance. I personally wouldn't rely on every ship coming at you having an undefended stargate on board to send saboteurs through. That assumes your armoured battlegroup isn't ripped apart by death gliders and Al'kesh given you have no way to get air support through, and conventional weapons can't scratch Al'kesh anyway.

[Captain Seafort]

Having a standing force of vehicles ready to go through means you need a lot of space around it just for storage, workshops and garage space, not to mention an assembly area in front of the gate, which means that you cannot have the gate underground and are thus more vulnerable to attacks through it.

Not necessarily - just dig out additional space under the mountain. I can't see it being a bigger job than digging out a big enough hole to build the Prometheus in, in secret.

Second, they are actively trying to avoid escalating the conflict with the Goa'uld. Four enemy soldiers escaping your elite guard is annoying. An armoured battlegroup rolling through your elite guard and freeing those four soldiers is an existential threat to your forces and needs to be countered aggressively and Earth was for most of the show incapable of taking out one Ha'tak without a whole lot of luck or outside assistance.

Apophis sent a couple of Ha'taks to Earth as a result of those minor raids. The fact is that the Goauld tend to react strongly to any form of resistance, so I really don't see the point of holding back, if all that means is that your forces are less effective for no particular benefit.

That assumes your armoured battlegroup isn't ripped apart by death gliders and Al'kesh given you have no way to get air support through, and conventional weapons can't scratch Al'kesh anyway.

As I said, Al'kesh are a problem, and a response to any appearance by them needs to be considered before deploying. Death Gliders are no more serious a threat than the close air support a decent Earth air force could put up.

[Metahive]

Apophis sent a couple of Ha'taks to Earth as a result of those minor raids. The fact is that the Goauld tend to react strongly to any form of resistance, so I really don't see the point of holding back, if all that means is that your forces are less effective for no particular benefit.

They weren't minor, one raid involved SG-1 killing an entire batch of larval Goa'uld not to speak of them nearly capturing Apophis on the Nox planet. A retaliatory strike by him was only a question of time after that. Also, if the Ta'uri had made any louder noise, the System Lords would have intervened collectively as they already threatened when SG-1 killed Hathor and Seth, two rogue Goa'uld.
What's the benefit of bringing an IFV to, say, Chulak when that means dozens of Ha'taks making a beeline to Earth to wipe it clean?

[Blayne]

Thanks for the backup Daefaron! Luv you!

By that standard thought (re: Empire) I think the Gould and the Ori are pretty terrible, or at least woefully inefficient. It's almost like Battleschool (Ender's Game) territory of stagnation where none of the System Lords dare rock the boat or try anything new because anything new might spread to their enemies (Yes I know there's exceptions but its been like 15,000 years before Apothsis and Anubis came along. They're a space faring neofeudal civilization whose entire sticht is intimidation and theatrics to keeping the ignorant peasants in line.

I think they only "beat" Earth generally is because of the advantage of the space high ground and numbers. I think a Hind would probably be able to shrug off their staff blasts.

[lord Martiya]

Is the Race seriously on this list as a contender for a GOOD army? And nobody has called that out yet? The same Race that only ever wins anything because they have 21st century level military technology and are clueless about tactics and have no idea how to adapt to the simplest of changing or unexpected circumstances?

As a science-fiction army, yes: they use combined arms tactics, have realistic tactics and strategies, have the common sense of using efficient propaganda, and realize the importance of logistics (something most sci-fi militaries don't) and take care of the issue by bringing with them much more they expected to have to use (and this way of thinking is apparently so ingrained that they consider insane not going at war against an expected middle age world without nukes and anti-tank and anti-air weapons, just in case someone invaded their target first).
Sure, they're complacent and slow adapting and paid for this, but in their defence it worked well in the two previous planetary conquests, their target was much more difficult than they expected (evolved enough to have weapons capable to hurt them and working radios and radars but primitive enough that their electronics weren't fried by the EMP pulse they used just before invading), they couldn't possibly have anticipated the effects of ginger and they did adapt (see what happened to the navies of the world as soon as they realized they were actually a danger, or their reaction to chemical warfare: issuing sealed radiation suits to the frontline troops as a stopgap while they adapted proper defenses).
And, finally, during the invasion they held back: they could have obliterated both Axis and Allies with nukes, but choose not to not ruin the planet for the colonists. Just look at how fast Nazi Germany was obliterated in the 1965 war (after their technology had vastly improved since WWII), and ask yourself what would have happened if Atvar accepted Straha's advice to nuke the major powers into submission.

[Simon_Jester]

[Reads Stark-talk about gundams]

We need a versus thread: Zeon (Zeonians? Zeonites? I do not know) against Iron Sky Moon Nazis.

I think I'm joking.