B5 Shadows vs Empire

[Master of Ossus]

SW has more firepower, speed, protection, numbers and probably range than the Shadows do. They would clearly win the conflict.

All irrelevant. Shadow plague spread on outlying worlds and spread as traders and merchants go from planet to planet. Shadows win, and not a shot fired in anger...

And there are how many traders and such going 100,000 LY out of their way to bring no goods from B5 to the Empire? Your scenario is ridiculous and depends on far too many unproven factors to be an effective debate.

[Master of Ossus]

And yes, everyone, DOA just told us all that firepower, speed, armor, shields, numbers, AND range are irrelevent during a war.

[Dead on Arrival]

And yes, everyone, DOA just told us all that firepower, speed, armor, shields, numbers, AND range are irrelevent during a war.

When you never intent to engage your foe in direct combat, then yes they are all irrelevant. Don't try to twist my words into meaning something that they don't...

And there are how many traders and such going 100,000 LY out of their way to bring no goods from B5 to the Empire? Your scenario is ridiculous and depends on far too many unproven factors to be an effective debate.

Who said anything about traders in the B5 galaxy? I was referring to the plague being spread by Shadow vessels based in the SW galaxy.

[Crown]

Originally posted by Darth Wong
Worse yet, given the speculation that real objects cast disruptive mass shadows in B5 hyperspace (from b5tech.com; if anyone wishes to explain where they got this idea from, feel free), it seems likely that Imperial interdictors could pull Shadow ships out of hyperspace en route and attack them.

I don't believe that mass shadows would, necessary pull the shadows out of Hyperspace. After all in the B5 episode; 'The deconstruction of Stars' (I think that is the one where we are taken 1 million years into the future right?), we see that Sol goes nova. At first I just thought major screw up! however JMS stated that the reason that Sol went nova was because the humans at that point in time, who have now evolved and advanced to the likes of the Vorlon's and Shadows in tech and physical being, were opening jump points in the centre of Sol over the course of days in order to make it unstable. So my contention would be that if they can get close enough to Sol and still be in Hyperspace, I don't think that an Intredictor would have any affect on them.

However what I do believe would be a problem for the Shadows, would be navigation... I mean the YR use the jump gate beakon system, and although it has been shown and proven that the FO can navigated in Hyperspace without it, that is only inside the galaxy. So would they still be able to navigate as efficiently in unknown terrain? The Empire could concievably use the Indredictors as sort of 'mouse traps', I mean cast a gravity shadow, the Shadows register that in Hyperspace, thinking it is a planet, they jump into normal space, and get a bloody nose from the Imperial strike force waiting in ambush...

..Anyway, I will try and find the JMS quote if anyone wants it.

[Darth Wong]

All irrelevant. Shadow plague spread on outlying worlds and spread as traders and merchants go from planet to planet. Shadows win, and not a shot fired in anger...

I just love these fanboy tactics. It's like somebody projecting a war and using nukes as a first resort, not realizing what door is opened by that action.

BTW, range, speed, and firepower are hardly irrelevant. The Shadows may not even have the operational range to make the 100,000 light year journey. It will probably take years, even if they can do it at all. Their plague will be vapourized by planetary shields, which will be activated as soon as unidentified ships appear in orbit.

Meanwhile, if the Empire wants them, they can take them. If the Shadows attempted any such massive bioweapon attacks as you envision, they would only unify the entire SW galaxy against them, thus allowing the Empire to focus the industrial power and manpower of their civilization on the task of defeating the Shadows with few internal worries.

Imagine thousands of warships, each capable of planet-killing operations, ranging over the entirety of Shadow territory (which is small by their standards) on sorties every two or three days, blasting planets into oblivion until they find and eliminate every Shadow base. The Drakh? They would be captured, tortured, and Force-probed until they reveal all of the secrets that the Empire needs to know. And given the scenario (alternate timeline in which the Empire was victorious at Endor), this means they have DS2, and the Emperor and Vader or Luke is in charge, complete with foreknowledge of the future.

Sorry, but the Shadows would be massacred. Moreover, the greater the threat they pose, the more violent the response would be. If they set out to commit such a huge act of mass-murder as you describe, the Emperor would foresee it and annihilate all of them. I wouldn't give them three weeks.

[Shadow WarChief]

1: Yes. In a conventional war the Shadows are fucked. Royally.

2: The way the plague was to be used was not for it to be distributed on a fringe B5 planet, but a fringe SW planet.

Yes it will take them an absurdly long time to make the extra 100,000 light year journey, but what are a few years to a species that has spent 1,000 years preparing for war?

Spreading the plague on an small, though not completely isolated world, such as tatooine, would be sufficient.

There is no fleet to destroy the Shadow vessels in time (ISDs were only there because they followed Leia/droids), and there's no planetary shield to stop the plague from entering the atmosphere.

As seen in ANH, smugglers and other criminals leave tatooine on a regular basis for other, more developed worlds.

All it would take would be 1 smuggler to get to a semi-populated word, infect it, and the next time someone left the planet, the plague would spread in the same way, using the vastly superior speed of SW hyperspace to spread it faster.'

Would the Imps be able to cure the plague?

But what of the Emperor's precog. Well let's see:

He was unable to forsee the MF destroying the DSII.
He was unable to forsee Vader's betrayal.
He was unable to forsee the part the Ewok's would play.
He was unable to forsee the Death of Darth Maul.
He was unable to forsee the destruction of the DS.
He was unable to forsee himself losing numerous times in the EU.
He was unable to forsee where the Rebels would run after ANH.
He was unable to forsee Leia putting 3P0 and R2 on Tatooine.


He was unable to forsee almost every crucial point.

[Master of Ossus]

But the Imperials and the New Republic are both familiar with bio-weapons, including plagues (ref. The Emperor's Plague, Darksaber, The Krytos Trap). I think they would be able to cure such a plague, and you don't know if Bacta could cure it.

[septesix]

A Few things:

First, Shadow has NO PROBLEM going outside their galaxy. In Fact, they did just that at the end of "Into The Fire"....

Second..Shadow Plague are actually very sophicate nano machines, they aren't biological entities.

[Dead on Arrival]

I just love these fanboy tactics. It's like somebody projecting a war and using nukes as a first resort, not realizing what door is opened by that action.

The Shadow Plague has an incubation period of roughly 5 years, during which time it is adapting itself to the host and spreading to non-infected humans, aliens, animals, etc. It manifests itself as any number of fatal diseases, viruses, etc to the host body. There is no ONE cure, you must neutralize the source...the resulting effect varies according to the infected body. In a galactic civilization, a few deaths from some disease on some backwater world will be easily overlooked. Scarily, a few million dead over millions of world is barely even worth mentioning. It is only when the Shadow Plague has fully adapted that a galactic panic would be noticed. However, what if the Shadow Plague finds a disease to which SW medical science cannot cure?

That said, the Shadows would not use this weapon first. However, in most Warsies eyes the first action the Empire will take is always hostile. Most assume that they will BDZ or even use the Death Star on Z'ha'dum, which would result in the Shadows resorting to such a tactic. Also, we can theorize that the incubation period of the Shadow Plague can be adjusted so that it doesn't take 5 years to find a fatal illness. Maybe.

If the Shadows did use such a weapon, unless the GE discovers it and somehow links it to them, they have a faceless enemy and no place to direct their retaliation.

BTW, range, speed, and firepower are hardly irrelevant. The Shadows may not even have the operational range to make the 100,000 light year journey.

What do speed, firepower, and weapon range have to do with operational range? If needed, the Shadows could establish refueling outposts inside of Hyperspace...called Regeneration Outposts by B5Wars.

It will probably take years, even if they can do it at all.

The YR are restricted to following beacons and cannot go 'deep' into Hyperspace, the Shadows have no such problem. There vessels are significantly faster than YR in Hyperspace, and also have access to alternate forms of FTL transport. The 'funnel' seen in the 2nd T-M trilogy novel, was two gates linked to one another allowing rapid transit from one part of the galaxy to the other. It should be possible for them to build a series of them in Hyperspace to allow rapid transport, as in SW Hyperdrive speeds if needed.

Their plague will be vapourized by planetary shields, which will be activated as soon as unidentified ships appear in orbit.

This is true if the vessel in question appears in orbit. However, not all worlds have planetary shields or active sensors to alert of incoming ships, etc. The targets would be worlds like Tattoine (sp?), where a ship could land in relative obscurity. However, if a planet with a shield was to be hit with the Plague the Shadow Vessel in Hyperspace can release a 'fighter' or two and let them 'phase' under the shield into the planet's atmosphere. In an episode of Crusade we saw that the 'fighters' could be used to spread the Plague if needed.

snip a wonderful battleplan

Palpatine is not omniscient, and the ability to predict or foresee the future is not perfect. In addition, there are telepaths in B5 that possess similiar abilities of foresight, clairvoyance, or whatever you want to label it as. The Drakh share a telepathic hive mind, what one sees they all see, regardless of the space in between. This suggests that the Shadows, who engineered the Drakh and other servitor races, understand telepathy on a very, large scale. Another example of this might be the Eye of Z'ha'dum, which was able to detect and nearly 'capture' Ivanova when she was exploring Sigma-957 through the Great Machine. With all of the above, the Shadows might be forewarned of an invasion and be able to react or shield themselves from being detected. Maybe.

All of the First Ones, including the Shadows, are highly telepathic entities and can deal with attempted mental scans in various ways. Scanning the mind of a Shadow was likened to falling into a Black Hole by Talia Winters, a P5 that was augmented by Ironheart before he 'ascended'. The Shadows have weapons designed to kill other telepaths, which vary in strength dependant upon the mind trapped and then destroyed. When scanned by a P5 one such device destroyed a reinforced testing chamber and the bulk of the adjoining room, as well as mind-shreding every P5 within several miles of the blast. Were a Sith or Jedi to be snared by such a device, I would expect the effect to be much more devastating.

Were it so easy for the Sith to rip information from the mind of a subject, why was Vader unsuccessful in ANH? If a latant talent such as Leia's is enough to shield one's mind, what chance does a Sith have against beings which have layer upon layer of mental blocks in place just to keep the sea of mental noise out? We know that there are beings in the SW galaxy that cannot be effected by Jedi Mind Tricks, I would assume the same would be in the B5 galaxy. I would also assume that the Shadows and there minions being highly telepathic would be extremely resistant if not immune, and would add that scanning a Shadow could be potentially fatal in its own right.

All that said, what the Shadows do would be totally dependant upon the actions of the GE and the timeframe of there emergence. The Shadows or there minions would not be openly hostile against the GE, and depending upon the timeframe they may be 'sleeping'. Sadly I agree that the GE is too much for the Shadow Remnant to handle, which is why unless the GE attacks first the Shadows won't openly fight them. However, if the GE goes after the Younger Races I would expect the GE to be facing the combined forces of every First One ever born and 'gone beyond the rim'. There role as Guardians of the Younger Races is about all that holds them there...

[Dead on Arrival]

In regards to the Emperor's force precognition, I am reminded of the abilities of the Sword of Kas from D&D: Greyhawk. This powerful sword was made by the Lich-King, now God, Vecna for his Lieutenant Kas. Kas was a powerful warrior, who was slowly influenced by the sword to attack Vecna and seize his empire for himself. When Kas confronted Vecna he found to his dismay the sword was powerless against its creator, failing at the moment at which he needed it the most. The Sword of Kas is the Dark Side of the Force, a powerful artifact of unimaginable power. It fails the Emperor when even its awesome power cannot overcome its foe. What is it fighting? Fate.

Hehe, I am such an insomniac. So that may or may not make sense, but maybe it will make you go look up some lore on Vecna. Awesome fellow, actually escaped from Ravenloft he did!

[Dead on Arrival]

and you don't know if Bacta could cure it.

taken from www.starwars.com

The containment cylinder fills with rejuvenating bacta fluid that is capable of healing even the most grievous wounds. The translucent red fluid nurtures the growth of a bacterial medium that seeks out traumatized tissue and promotes regeneration and growth to rapidly heal wounds with minimal or no scarring. Medical droids closely monitor the patient, who is suspended in the fluid.

...

The insectoid Vratix of Thyferra invented bacta by mixing alazhi salve with a synthetic liquid chemical called kavam. This concoction is further mixed with a colorless viscous liquid called ambori. During the Galactic Civil War, the Empire realized the importance of bacta and shut down all satellite manufacturing centers, allowing the bacta plants on Thyferra to have a total monopoly on production. Two manufacturers reigned supreme, the Zaltin and Xucphra corporations.

...

Luke Skywalker spent time in a bacta tank, recovering from exposure and dormo-shock suffered from spending a night in a Hoth blizzard.

taken from http://www1.theforce.net/CUSWE/default.asp

a rejuvenatory fluid that circulates healing bacteria around a wound to speed recovery, bacta was originally created by the Vratix. The fluid contained living organisms that help speed a patient's recovery by latching onto a wound and aiding in the regeneration process. It was first created by the Vratix, on Thyferra, by combining the chemical kavam with the organic lotion alazhi. The small human population on Thyferra was placed in charge of two corporations, Zaltin and Xucphra, and their small human management teams controlled huge populations of Vratix laborers. When Palpatine became Emperor, he decreed that the two corporations would be the sole providers of bacta for the galaxy, giving them a monopoly on its production but indebting them both to the Empire. Because of the monopoly and the prices they could charge, the corporations created an export-quality bacta and a Thyferran version. The Thyferran version was much more potent than its export version, which had lesser healing properties to drive up the demand. During the early years of the New Republic, Ysanne Isard tried to cripple the Republic by restricting the availability of bacta in two ways: first, she let loose the Krytos virus on Coruscant; second, she took control of the planet Thyferra. The Republic began taking great strides to preserve its supply of bacta, including reclaiming any unused bacta from patients who were immersed in a bacta tank. This practice continued for another 15 to 20 years until bacta production could be fully re-established under New Republic auspices. There was a rumor of a band of renegade Twi'lek pirates who would immerse their captives in bacta during interrogation sessions. They would then run electricity through the bacta, torturing their victims to the point of death, and then remove the electricity. They would allow the bacta to heal the victim, then start the electricity again.

I don't see what good something like that would be against Ebola, or something even nastier...

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

The Shadow Plague has an incubation period of roughly 5 years, during which time it is adapting itself to the host and spreading to non-infected humans, aliens, animals, etc. It manifests itself as any number of fatal diseases, viruses, etc to the host body. There is no ONE cure, you must neutralize the source...the resulting effect varies according to the infected body. In a galactic civilization, a few deaths from some disease on some backwater world will be easily overlooked. Scarily, a few million dead over millions of world is barely even worth mentioning. It is only when the Shadow Plague has fully adapted that a galactic panic would be noticed. However, what if the Shadow Plague finds a disease to which SW medical science cannot cure?

Leap of logic. The fact that Shadow Plague can adapt to the host and manifest itself in various forms *doesn't* mean that it is incurable. Reminds me to "Borg can adapt to anything" argument. "There is no ONE cure"???? Awww, puh-leezeeee.....

That said, the Shadows would not use this weapon first. However, in most Warsies eyes the first action the Empire will take is always hostile. Most assume that they will BDZ or even use the Death Star on Z'ha'dum, which would result in the Shadows resorting to such a tactic. Also, we can theorize that the incubation period of the Shadow Plague can be adjusted so that it doesn't take 5 years to find a fatal illness. Maybe.

So the Empire has the initiative. Bad news for Shadows. How many planets it takes to be BDZed until Shadows decide to deploy Shadow Plague?

What do speed, firepower, and weapon range have to do with operational range? If needed, the Shadows could establish refueling outposts inside of Hyperspace...called Regeneration Outposts by B5Wars.

Still, it needs 11 months for the Shadow to reach SW galaxy. 11 months is plenty of time for the Empire......

If the Shadows did use such a weapon, unless the GE discovers it and somehow links it to them, they have a faceless enemy and no place to direct their retaliation.

Ok. Let's say it's the most powerful weapon in the universe . Even though you hold the most powerful weapon in the universe, it would be totally *useless* if you are annihilated first.

The YR are restricted to following beacons and cannot go 'deep' into Hyperspace, the Shadows have no such problem. There vessels are significantly faster than YR in Hyperspace, and also have access to alternate forms of FTL transport. The 'funnel' seen in the 2nd T-M trilogy novel, was two gates linked to one another allowing rapid transit from one part of the galaxy to the other. It should be possible for them to build a series of them in Hyperspace to allow rapid transport, as in SW Hyperdrive speeds if needed.

How fast it is? Is it as fast as SW hyperdrive? Anyway, how long it takes to build a series of gates? How many gates should be build?

Palpatine is not omniscient, and the ability to predict or foresee the future is not perfect. In addition, there are telepaths in B5 that possess similiar abilities of foresight, clairvoyance, or whatever you want to label it as. The Drakh share a telepathic hive mind, what one sees they all see, regardless of the space in between. This suggests that the Shadows, who engineered the Drakh and other servitor races, understand telepathy on a very, large scale. Another example of this might be the Eye of Z'ha'dum, which was able to detect and nearly 'capture' Ivanova when she was exploring Sigma-957 through the Great Machine. With all of the above, the Shadows might be forewarned of an invasion and be able to react or shield themselves from being detected. Maybe.

All of the First Ones, including the Shadows, are highly telepathic entities and can deal with attempted mental scans in various ways. Scanning the mind of a Shadow was likened to falling into a Black Hole by Talia Winters, a P5 that was augmented by Ironheart before he 'ascended'. The Shadows have weapons designed to kill other telepaths, which vary in strength dependant upon the mind trapped and then destroyed. When scanned by a P5 one such device destroyed a reinforced testing chamber and the bulk of the adjoining room, as well as mind-shreding every P5 within several miles of the blast. Were a Sith or Jedi to be snared by such a device, I would expect the effect to be much more devastating.

Were it so easy for the Sith to rip information from the mind of a subject, why was Vader unsuccessful in ANH? If a latant talent such as Leia's is enough to shield one's mind, what chance does a Sith have against beings which have layer upon layer of mental blocks in place just to keep the sea of mental noise out? We know that there are beings in the SW galaxy that cannot be effected by Jedi Mind Tricks, I would assume the same would be in the B5 galaxy. I would also assume that the Shadows and there minions being highly telepathic would be extremely resistant if not immune, and would add that scanning a Shadow could be potentially fatal in its own right.

Yup. Palpatine and Vader is not perfect. Does it automatically translate that the Shadows will win over the Empire? Who need telepathy when all you need is range, speed, and firepower?

DOA, have you conveniently forgotten the premise that started this thread? Both sides discover each other, when a shadow probe, and Imperial probe both meet each other, at the wormhole. From there its up in the air. So let say, after their mutual knowledge about each other's existence, they start to annihilate each other. "Oh, commander, but we need to *reach the enemy first* before annihilating them". Big deal. The Empire needs 16 hours, the Shadow needs 11 months. Let's see who's eradicated first.

You mentioned about the <ooohh> Shadow Plague . Sorry, you cannot deploy your horrible plague if you're annihilated first. That's why range, speed, and firepower are *hardly* irrelevant.
You also suggest that the Shadow can sneak their plague to the SW galaxy. Again, have you conveniently forgotten the premise started this thread? Both discover each other's existance on the same time.
As last resort, you pointed that the Emperor and Vader are not perfect. So what? Let's say their ability to forseen the future is far from perfect, so a perfect battleplan cannot be made. So what? You don't need a 'perfect' battleplan if your speed, range, and firepower greatly exceeds your enemy.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I don't see what good something like that would be against Ebola, or something even nastier...

Go ahead. Quote as much as you can about technical specification about bacta tank, without even trying to proof yourself why bacta cannot cure Ebola, or in this case, Shadow Plague.

What are you implying, by the way????

Even IF bacta cannot cure Shadow Plague, please proof that bacta is *the only way* to cure diseases in Star Wars galaxy.

Even IF Shadow Plague is currently incurable in Star Wars galaxy, there is a way to prevent incurable disease from spreading. It is called "QUARANTINE".

[Raxmei]

A possibly relevent situation occurred in one of the SW books. The Caridan ambassador infected Mon Mothma with a nanoplague. Bacta was not enough to cure it.

[SirNitram]

Most amusing. Well, since the Empire has -everything- mentioned in Canon and Official, the Sun Crusher will decimate Shadow Territory all by itself, as a squadron of ISD-II's, supported by multiple Golan-III battlestations, blockade the wormhole. Shadow Plague is never deployed because the Shadow's never get to the SW Galaxy.

Or I could just pull out the Obliterator-Class SD...

[Smiling Bandit]

Yes it will take them an absurdly long time to make the extra 100,000 light year journey, but what are a few years to a species that has spent 1,000 years preparing for war?

Its a lot of time if they are all dead, dead, dead first.

A possibly relevent situation occurred in one of the SW books. The Caridan ambassador infected Mon Mothma with a nanoplague. Bacta was not enough to cure it.

But that was one person, with a short (no more than matter of weeks) lead time before death, designed specifically to hit Mon Mothma alone, and was beaten by one cheap Jedi trainee in a few hours of *physically* plucking each nanite and pulling it outside Mothma's person.

[septesix]

Most amusing is the idea of "How many planet does the Empire need to BDZ before Shadow use the plague" or "The Suncrusher and some escort will defeat the shadow by themselve"....

PLEASE...Shadow has no need for planets. They can just as easily live out their lives in Hyperspace , have their home base there (DoA can fill in the blank of an example Shadow base in Hyperspace). All the empire's weapon is not going to do a lot of good unless they can get to the Shadows, which they can not..

As for Proving that there are no other way to cure the plague.....

Shouldn't it be the Wars' side to prove that they can cure it? Unless you guys can do that, you might as well admit that Wars' are powerless against this plague...

[Omega-13]

Sorry, I'd just like to say a few things before this gets more out of control,
it was mentioned that the emperor didn't see these things take place, um prove it, he saw a lot of stuff, just because something isn't going to go his way, doesn't mean he didn't see it, in the SW universe, destiny, exists, that cannot change, it was his destiny to die, he coudn't change it, he understands this, just like yoda and vader understand it,

so, again, PROVE he didn't see them, instead of guessing

[Omega-13]

Most amusing is the idea of "How many planet does the Empire need to BDZ before Shadow use the plague" or "The Suncrusher and some escort will defeat the shadow by themselve"....

PLEASE...Shadow has no need for planets. They can just as easily live out their lives in Hyperspace , have their home base there (DoA can fill in the blank of an example Shadow base in Hyperspace). All the empire's weapon is not going to do a lot of good unless they can get to the Shadows, which they can not..

As for Proving that there are no other way to cure the plague.....

Shouldn't it be the Wars' side to prove that they can cure it? Unless you guys can do that, you might as well admit that Wars' are powerless against this plague...

its not going to be hard for the empire to obtain jump gate technology from the YR races, after they bitch slap them around for technology

[adam warlock]

its not going to be hard for the empire to obtain jump gate technology from the YR races, after they bitch slap them around for technology

theres still the problem of navigation, and that that the first ones have no need of navigating beacons (they did leave the galaxy via hyperspace in the end)

nevermind that first ones are also capable of manipulating hyperspace to their advantage, e.g. vorlons were able to fold vast portions of b5 hyperspace around their 10,000 strong fleet (including planet killer) to avoid detection.. ivanova and marcus only detected them because the whitestar is partly vorlon tech.

[Omega-13]

i don't remember them ever mentioning that they folded hyperspace around the ship, are you talking about the fleet that was going to take out the centari homeworld? I don't remember them ever mentioning it,

also, navigation is all in the computer of the YR races ships, its not hard to take candy from a baby, hook up a lot of navigation droids and protocol droids to the computer, and they'll be able to figure it out given some time

[Master of Ossus]

Sorry, I'd just like to say a few things before this gets more out of control,
it was mentioned that the emperor didn't see these things take place, um prove it, he saw a lot of stuff, just because something isn't going to go his way, doesn't mean he didn't see it, in the SW universe, destiny, exists, that cannot change, it was his destiny to die, he coudn't change it, he understands this, just like yoda and vader understand it,

so, again, PROVE he didn't see them, instead of guessing

Always in motion, is the Future. Seeing far into the future is VERY difficult, even for exceptionally skilled Jedi. The Emperor is very powerful. He can see trends and directions (he knew, as Obi-Wan did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him). He just was not able to predict any specifics, because of the shifting nature of the Universe.

[Omega-13]

Sorry, I'd just like to say a few things before this gets more out of control,
it was mentioned that the emperor didn't see these things take place, um prove it, he saw a lot of stuff, just because something isn't going to go his way, doesn't mean he didn't see it, in the SW universe, destiny, exists, that cannot change, it was his destiny to die, he coudn't change it, he understands this, just like yoda and vader understand it,

so, again, PROVE he didn't see them, instead of guessing

Always in motion, is the Future. Seeing far into the future is VERY difficult, even for exceptionally skilled Jedi. The Emperor is very powerful. He can see trends and directions (he knew, as Obi-Wan did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him). He just was not able to predict any specifics, because of the shifting nature of the Universe.

yep and I agree completely, doesn't disprove he didn't see what happened

[Dead on Arrival]

Leap of logic. The fact that Shadow Plague can adapt to the host and manifest itself in various forms *doesn't* mean that it is incurable. Reminds me to "Borg can adapt to anything" argument. "There is no ONE cure" ???? Awww, puh-leezeeee.....

Will a cure for HIV work on Ebola? Same principle, only on a much larger scale. The Plague mutates itself into a lethal disease, but during the 5 year incubation period it will find fatal diseases and cause deaths before finding what it deems to be the 'right' one. If you know the Shadow Plague is there, you may be able to remove it. However, since it manifests itself in the form of other diseases...why would you assume it is there?

So the Empire has the initiative. Bad news for Shadows. How many planets it takes to be BDZed until Shadows decide to deploy Shadow Plague?

You prove my point better than I ever could. If the Empire attacks them, the Shadows will retaliate. However, there vengeance will not be swift but it will be total.

Still, it needs 11 months for the Shadow to reach SW galaxy. 11 months is plenty of time for the Empire......

11 months? Where are you pulling this figure from? Even normal mode of Hyperspace transport is faster on average than that. Factor in the 'funnel' gates I mentioned, and they can cover that distance rather rapidly. Not as fast SW high-end Hyperdrive I will admit, but fast enough.

Ok. Let's say it's the most powerful weapon in the universe . Even though you hold the most powerful weapon in the universe, it would be totally *useless* if you are annihilated first.

The Empire has to find the Shadows first, which is not a given at all. The Shadows have at least base located in deep space, as well as the ability to place installations and forces in Hyperspace.

How fast it is? Is it as fast as SW hyperdrive? Anyway, how long it takes to build a series of gates? How many gates should be build?

Beats me. The Drakh dug one up on a Centauri world, and used it to reach the now destroyed base of Xha'dam where they were able to activate a ready Death Cloud and almost complete another before the base was destroyed by Vir and a cabal of Techno-mages. The gates seemed to be similiar to standard jump gates in overall size, so building them shouldn't take too long. As for speed, they were able to cover hundreds/thousands of light years in minutes through the equivalent of a wormhole through HS.

Yup. Palpatine and Vader is not perfect. Does it automatically translate that the Shadows will win over the Empire? Who need telepathy when all you need is range, speed, and firepower?

I was speculating on whether the Shadows could handle the Emperor in a battle of minds if came to that, and who needs range, speed, and firepower when you never intent to directly face your opponent?

DOA, have you conveniently forgotten the premise that started this thread? Both sides discover each other, when a shadow probe, and Imperial probe both meet each other, at the wormhole. From there its up in the air . So let say, after their mutual knowledge about each other's existence, they start to annihilate each other. "Oh, commander, but we need to *reach the enemy first* before annihilating them". Big deal. The Empire needs 16 hours, the Shadow needs 11 months. Let's see who's eradicated first.

I have forgotten nothing, and I will point out that no timeframe was given for the Shadows. That said, the Shadows will know the instant the probe detects the other probe and most likely order it to investigate the other side of the wormhole. I am not going to arbitrarily assume the Shadows will be hostile, because that is not how they are. The Empire may have a speed advantage, but they still have no clue where the Shadow Remnant worlds are located. It will take them time to find them, during which the Shadows will be planning and most likely relocating.

You mentioned about the <ooohh> Shadow Plague . Sorry, you cannot deploy your horrible plague if you're annihilated first. That's why range, speed, and firepower are *hardly* irrelevant.

Why are you assuming the Shadows will engage forces which they can easily tell are superior to there own? The Empire will take time to find the worlds upon which the Shadows dwell, during which time they will likely move to more secure surroundings. They are irrelevant, because fighting that type of war only favors the Empire and the Shadows will wage war on there own terms. Galactic terrorists...

You also suggest that the Shadow can sneak their plague to the SW galaxy. Again, have you conveniently forgotten the premise started this thread? Both discover each other's existance on the same time.

How does that stop the Plague from being spread by a single ship that is sent through to the SW galaxy? It only needs to hit one world, and then the effect will spread quickly to most inhabited worlds.

As last resort, you pointed that the Emperor and Vader are not perfect. So what? Let's say their ability to forseen the future is far from perfect, so a perfect battleplan cannot be made. So what? You don't need a 'perfect' battleplan if your speed, range, and firepower greatly exceeds your enemy.

You have to find your enemy first, and that is not a given at all.

[Dead on Arrival]

Go ahead. Quote as much as you can about technical specification about bacta tank, without even trying to proof yourself why bacta cannot cure Ebola, or in this case, Shadow Plague.

Read the description of what Bacta does. It is a regenerative salve, that works great against simple wounds, exposure, etc. Against something that destroys cellular bonds or DNA it would next than useless, requireing real treatment beyond its abilities.

What are you implying, by the way????

Was showing why Bacta wouldn't be helpful against diseases like HIV, Ebola, etc in response to Master of Ossus's statement.

Even IF bacta cannot cure Shadow Plague, please proof that bacta is *the only way* to cure diseases in Star Wars galaxy.

I never said it was, but its not my job to prove the SW galaxy can cure something. That is yours...

Even IF Shadow Plague is currently incurable in Star Wars galaxy, there is a way to prevent incurable disease from spreading. It is called "QUARANTINE".

Which will be too late, because by the time it is an epidemic...the Plague will be on thousands/millions of worlds already.