US Military vs Coruscant

[NecronLord]

Yah but on geonosis they had dooko and palp clouding their vision, i havent noticed many sith in the USMC lately

[IDMR]

In addition, it would not take the military long to get samples of blasters and other military grade weaponry (if only from the local cops and even local criminals) for their own use - not to mention study. Also, down on the lower levels of Coruscant the use of Starfighters and other military attack craft would be greatly limited given the terrain - the troopers could always take cover in the buildings, and even if the buildings were blasted, rubble provides even better cover than a building for fighting positions. Any craft with shielding would be able to withstand Stinger attacks, but capture a few of the heavier blaster weapons from the locals and poof there goes a few of those starfighters.

Now, if clone troopers were sent in, then there could be some problems since their personal armor can probably stop most small arms. But that's what grenade launchers, etc. are for. There's a tripod mounted 40mm grenade launcher in use with the US Military that has a rate of fire high enough to scare the crap out of anyone - at least a sixty rounds a minute, perhaps more. Dual purpose HE/AP rounds would ruin a clone trooper's day.

And again, dead clone troopers = getting blasters, et al.

Would you care to confirm a point for me? Are you actually of the opinion that the USA stands a decent chance of reverse-engineering and then mass-producing blaster weaponry in time to make a difference?

Or do you just think that they can capture the said arms for their own use?

[Mr Bean]

Thats what he ment to say I think if I read his language and tone right IMDR

[willburns84]

Would you care to confirm a point for me? Are you actually of the opinion that the USA stands a decent chance of reverse-engineering and then mass-producing blaster weaponry in time to make a difference?

Or do you just think that they can capture the said arms for their own use?

My earlier reply... No, no, no, - I specifically mentioned that the US wouldn't be able to reverse engineer a blaster. The US would certainly try to do it, but would not be successful. Besides, some yahoo over there would easily show the group just how to use such weapons and teach them basic principles.

No. The USA would not be able to reverse-engineer anything of any military value. In terms of general principles our understanding would improve, but no, we wouldn't be able to produce blasters. My point was we would try. And locals would show us how to use the weapons...

[Pablo Sanchez]

For assault rifles killing Jedi: Slug-throwers are extremely easy to get, the SWEGWT makes reference to individual street gangs making their own. If that kind of weapon was useful against Jedi, then they would have been used. Why aren't they? Simply because Jedi have the capability to make shields against projectile weapons. They have telekinetic powers, after all.

At any rate, this is a simply ludicrous scenario. A population of one trillion for Coruscant is an incredible underestimate. It must be in the hundreds of trillions, at the least. Under Palpatine, the US Army is destroyed in a matter of days. In the Republic, they are probably contained by police forces until one of the vast armies being conscripted for the Clone Wars can be redirected to crush them.

I would compare this scenario to "the Vatican's 60 Swiss pikemen versus the People's Liberation Army."

[willburns84]

Yah but on geonosis they had dooko and palp clouding their vision, i havent noticed many sith in the USMC lately

Geonosis was just one example that I could bring up from the movies.

I guess without the Sith then no one would be able to kill a Jedi, since they can see the future. I thought Jedi and Force users had to concentrate a lot or dream or something before they could see into the future, and that's a possible future - Yoda with his "Always in motion, the future." If there's an instance where they see the future in the middle of combat, please let me know.

[willburns84]

I'll admit that in TPM, Obi-wan said - "I've a bad feeling about this."
Qui Gon - "I don't sense anything."
At the start of the movie when they landed on the Trade Federation battleship.

On the other hand, during AOTC, Obi-wan during his battle with Jango appeared (to me) taken by surprise when Boba opened up with the Slave 1 cannon...

[NecronLord]

I was actually talking about the uncocious thing that anakin does.
"He sees things before they happen, it's a jedi trait"

[Manji]

In the Republic era, they'll be facing the Coruscant police force.

These cops would probably typically use unshielded speeders - the SW equivelant of squad cars, to move around. A stinger or even 20mm cannon fire would destroy those.

You would have Chinooks, Sea Knights, Super Stallions, V22 Ospreys etc. surging forward to deposit USMC at strategic locations.

SW ground Armies have never shown anything other than what can be described as shit-for-tactics. If that's what their actual militaries demonstrate, how much worse will their mere cops be?

The Coruscant Police Department would obviously have tactics that wouldn't even merit the description "amateur" compared to those of the US Army, never mind the rock-hard USMC, who would make them (the "CPD") look like a disorganised rabble.

For work between the buildings, Apaches, Cobras, and Harriers will probably be best (manouverability is needed there) while other aircraft could rise above the buildings and then maybe make runs down between them along straight paths.

Airpower can also be used to take out Jedi if they prove a problem. What's a Jedi going to do when attacked by an A-10 Thunderbolt firing its Avenger cannon? Die, of course.

[NecronLord]

Airpower can also be used to take out Jedi if they prove a problem. What's a Jedi going to do when attacked by an A-10 Thunderbolt firing its Avenger cannon? Die, of course

remembering that even luke skywalker can make tie pilots attack eachother, a fully trained republic jedi could easily make the pilot fly into a wall. or do something equally amusing

[willburns84]

American military Aircraft wouldn't be terribly useful in the confines of Coruscant (the lower levels at least) because speed of light weapons with devastating firepower can ruin any aircraft's day.

Wait.

How fast does a blaster bolt move?

I can see how various politicos have anti-Jedi sentiments in the various novels, now. With mind control and mind tricks, how to you really know that someone is truly acting of their own volition. How do you know someone isn't in the shadows wiggling their fingers, working that person over like a puppet? Jedi code? Power corrupts. And absolute power is actually pretty nice.

[Manji]

Airpower can also be used to take out Jedi if they prove a problem. What's a Jedi going to do when attacked by an A-10 Thunderbolt firing its Avenger cannon? Die, of course

remembering that even luke skywalker can make tie pilots attack eachother, a fully trained republic jedi could easily make the pilot fly into a wall. or do something equally amusing

Ah yes. Just like Obi Wan did on both occasions that he was attacked by Slave 1.


























Oh wait... he didn't.

Too bad.

Neither did he do it many years later aboard the Falcon when it was being attacked by TIEs.

Neither did Vader do it when Han attacked him in the Falcon during the trench run.

[Cpt_Frank]

Just a few things:
1. Coruscant's military defense force (not counting police forces or local resistance) is likely to number in the tens of millions, as such the US is outnumbered
2. Starfighters showed superior speed and maneuverability in comparison with today's aircraft, and they carry superior weapons (such as proton torps, for example).
3.SW ground armor surpasses today's ground armor in speed and armament, and an AT-AT, for example, has armor which is most likely to survive repeated hits from projectilve weapons such as artillery pieces or a main battle tank's gun.
4.Clonetrooper/Stormtrooper armor is said to be resistant to projectile weapons.
5.Jedi/Sith as an effective special force
Conclusion:
The US have a mighty military force. But they can't take Coruscant.

[Master of Ossus]

According to Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, the police on Coruscant (during the Republic era) also employ very heavily armed and shielded repulsor-life vehicles for use in bad neighborhoods. That would be a significant advantage over most American helicopters.

[willburns84]

According to Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, the police on Coruscant (during the Republic era) also employ very heavily armed and shielded repulsor-life vehicles for use in bad neighborhoods. That would be a significant advantage over most American helicopters.

That sounds like something right out of Cyberpunk 2020. Wow. That's amazing.

[Crazy_Vasey]

Depending on how low a level the US forces start on they might not be able to get any air forces into the battle as the really low levels are completely built over.

And there are some very unpleasant things down there.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Ah yes. Just like Obi Wan did on both occasions that he was attacked by Slave 1.

Perhaps you didn't notice the violent asteroid field he was flying through, or how he was being shot at. That sort of thing can hurt your ability to concentrate.

Neither did he do it many years later aboard the Falcon when it was being attacked by TIEs.

The Falcon was attacked by TIEs after he died, twit.

Neither did Vader do it when Han attacked him in the Falcon during the trench run.

Perhaps you haven't seen that movie in a few years, but Vader was kind of focussing on hitting Luke's fighter, and Han took him by surprise.

Manji, there is absolutely no possibility of the US Army winning this, or even lasting more than a matter of days.

US air power could be easily neutralized by a handful of starfighters; considering that most of them can withstand a couple of multi-kiloton direct hits, the US would have to commit nuclear weapons to knock them down. Meanwhile, extremely powerful manpack SAMs are commercially available in the GE (ex. PLX-2M)

US armor is almost useless in the vast cityscape of Coruscant--besides which, they are completely outnumbered and outclassed by Coruscant forces.

US Infantry would be almost incapable of injuring the defenders, because Stormie and Clone armor is incredibly resistant to kinetic impacts. Probably nothing less than sustained fire from a M2HB would hurt one of them. The SW infantry simply has superior weaponry and technology to defend them.

US Artillery would be unwieldy in the cityscape. In that unique terrain, direct fire is king, and that's what the defenders would have in spades.

On Jedi Precognition: In battle, most Jedi can see a few seconds into the future. That is what allows them to block the light-saber thrusts and deflect blaster bolts. If you look closely, they've already got the saber in position to block before the attack is even launched.

[Master of Ossus]

Incidentally, Jango Fett is not nearly as weak minded as an average individual, and the difficulty of using Force techniques increases at long range, and without being able to make constant eye-contact with the subject. Obi-Wan was also not a Jedi Master. He was only a Jedi Knight, which he remained until he died.

[Manji]

Depending on how low a level the US forces start on they might not be able to get any air forces into the battle as the really low levels are completely built over.

And there are some very unpleasant things down there.

Umm... they blast/drill their way up out?

And anyway, given the size of Coruscant, there's bound to be openings/shafts/vents etc. in various locations, at which the lower levels are open to the outside air and the higher levels. The US military just needs to find the nearest one and move their assets up out. (That's if they don't just take the former solution I presented, drilling/blasting. Detonate a tacnuke in the lower levels, blasting away everything above it, creating a gaping hole hundreds of feet wide for them to move up through. Helicopters could rise right up through it and then on to their objectives in the higher regions.)

[Master of Ossus]

The highest levels of Coruscant are as high as the tallest mountains (ref. Illustrated Guide to the Star Wars Universe). Many helicopters cannot function at such altitudes, assuming that those mountains are of similar height to the tallest mountain peaks here on earth. Even military helicopters have problems at such altitudes, and there are no launching points for traditional aircraft except for the rare and comparatively ineffective VTOL ones. This is a significant advantage that SW forces would have against US forces.

[Manji]

Ah yes. Just like Obi Wan did on both occasions that he was attacked by Slave 1.

Perhaps you didn't notice the violent asteroid field he was flying through, or how he was being shot at. That sort of thing can hurt your ability to concentrate.

Neither did he do it many years later aboard the Falcon when it was being attacked by TIEs.

The Falcon was attacked by TIEs after he died, twit.

Neither did Vader do it when Han attacked him in the Falcon during the trench run.

Perhaps you haven't seen that movie in a few years, but Vader was kind of focussing on hitting Luke's fighter, and Han took him by surprise.

Manji, there is absolutely no possibility of the US Army winning this, or even lasting more than a matter of days.

US air power could be easily neutralized by a handful of starfighters; considering that most of them can withstand a couple of multi-kiloton direct hits, the US would have to commit nuclear weapons to knock them down. Meanwhile, extremely powerful manpack SAMs are commercially available in the GE (ex. PLX-2M)

Ah yes. Multi kiloton hits. Such as when Anakin's missed shots in the Naboo hangar hit the wall, vaporising Amidala, Obi Wan, Gui Gon, Maul, and everyone else in the hangar...

Oh wait..... they didn't.

US armor is almost useless in the vast cityscape of Coruscant--besides which, they are completely outnumbered and outclassed by Coruscant forces.

There actually seemed to be roadways and pathways with ground vehicles moving along them in AOTC... probably a sort of pseudo-surface several miles above the actual planetary surface. And there are also wide open spaces, presumably also on this level... such as the senate plaza.

MBTs may do OK there.

US Infantry would be almost incapable of injuring the defenders, because Stormie and Clone armor is incredibly resistant to kinetic impacts. Probably nothing less than sustained fire from a M2HB would hurt one of them. The SW infantry simply has superior weaponry and technology to defend them.

Damnit, this bit is rapidly taking on Outrageous Okona levels of masturbatory fantasy. Stormtrooper and clonetrooper armor is resistant to kinetic impacts... Hey, so is a kevlar vest - it will stop a pistol round. A 5.56mm NATO rifle round however, will walk through it, and a 7.62mm SOVIET round will laugh at it. In all probability stormtrooper and clonetrooper armor is similar.

It really is sickening to me the heights of faith this belief has progressed to. "Stormtrooper armor protects against kinetic impacts, therfore a stormtrooper could stand in front of the muzzel of one of the USS Iowa's guns when it fired and not be hurt at all."

Remember Riker in Okona, and the laser that "wouldn't penetrate the navigational shields", and how it was taken out of all context by the moronic end of Trekkiedom to the point where shuttlecraft were laughing at the death star superlaser? I see the same thing being done with stormtrooper armor vs kinetic impacts.

I guess those stormies who fell down when the Ewoks dropped rocks on them were just play-acting for the fun of it.

US Artillery would be unwieldy in the cityscape. In that unique terrain, direct fire is king, and that's what the defenders would have in spades.

I'll give you that. But then the US has plenty of direct fire as well.

On Jedi Precognition: In battle, most Jedi can see a few seconds into the future. That is what allows them to block the light-saber thrusts and deflect blaster bolts. If you look closely, they've already got the saber in position to block before the attack is even launched.

None of which will help them against a battery of miniguns throwing a mountain of lead at them like raindrops in a storm.

[Manji]

The highest levels of Coruscant are as high as the tallest mountains (ref. Illustrated Guide to the Star Wars Universe). Many helicopters cannot function at such altitudes, assuming that those mountains are of similar height to the tallest mountain peaks here on earth. Even military helicopters have problems at such altitudes, and there are no launching points for traditional aircraft except for the rare and comparatively ineffective VTOL ones. This is a significant advantage that SW forces would have against US forces.

Yes but that is because on Earth at such altitudes air pressure is greatly reduced. However this is clearly not the case on Coruscant, for whatever reason - people, including people fresh from off-world, have no breathing difficulties whatsoever when out in the open air at such altitudes, even when engaging in strenuous activity (running, combat). Therefore the air pressure at the altitude of Coruscant's higher levels is equivelant to that at a much lower altitude on Earth - possibly maintained this way by artificial means.

[Graeme Dice]

[quote="Manji]Ah yes. Multi kiloton hits. Such as when Anakin's missed shots in the Naboo hangar hit the wall, vaporising Amidala, Obi Wan, Gui Gon, Maul, and everyone else in the hangar...[/quote]

That was a powering up starfighter, in its own hangar, with an unauthorized pilot, and a sentient droid and computer combo controlling it. The weapons were low power shots.

Damnit, this bit is rapidly taking on Outrageous Okona levels of masturbatory fantasy. Stormtrooper and clonetrooper armor is resistant to kinetic impacts... Hey, so is a kevlar vest - it will stop a pistol round. A 5.56mm NATO rifle round however, will walk through it, and a 7.62mm SOVIET round will laugh at it. In all probability stormtrooper and clonetrooper armor is similar.

No, in all probability it is not, and if you had done your homework you would know this. It is far, far superior to modern bullets. A spear point with a smaller impact than those bullets, and enough momentum to pick up a full-grown human and throw them into a wall put a chip in the armour surface. No 7.62mm round can even pick a person up, let alone throw them.

It really is sickening to me the heights of faith this belief has progressed to. "Stormtrooper armor protects against kinetic impacts, therfore a stormtrooper could stand in front of the muzzel of one of the USS Iowa's guns when it fired and not be hurt at all."

That is a bullshit strawman. Stormtrooper protects against a known level of impacts from physical projectiles. This level is superior to all rifles any modern military fields, with the possible exception of extremely powerful sniper rifles.

Remember Riker in Okona, and the laser that "wouldn't penetrate the navigational shields", and how it was taken out of all context by the moronic end of Trekkiedom to the point where shuttlecraft were laughing at the death star superlaser? I see the same thing being done with stormtrooper armor vs kinetic impacts.

Then you are ignorant of the nature of physical impacts.

I guess those stormies who fell down when the Ewoks dropped rocks on them were just play-acting for the fun of it.

Another useless argument. Bullets and spear points are not 40+ pound rocks. Stormtrooper armour is lightweight and not designed to absorb the impact of a large weight without moving the head around and causing concussions.

Here's the real clincher that the fanboys are desperate to ignore. The population of Coruscant outnumbers the U.S. at the minimum by 4000 to 1. At the realistic levels, it outnumbers them around 500,000 to 1.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Ah yes. Multi kiloton hits. Such as when Anakin's missed shots in the Naboo hangar hit the wall, vaporising Amidala, Obi Wan, Gui Gon, Maul, and everyone else in the hangar...

Oh wait..... they didn't.

Perhaps you've never considered the possibility that the starfighter laser cannons have their firepower directed in one direction, in order to maximise penetration at the point of impact and minimize collateral damage.

And perhaps the hangar, being in a military installation and right next to Theed's primary generator, was a hardened structure, perhaps even designed to absorb laser shots.

(Note: Don't be condescending. If we're going to debate, we can debate. If you want to be an ass, I won't stop you. But there's no point.)

There actually seemed to be roadways and pathways with ground vehicles moving along them in AOTC... probably a sort of pseudo-surface several miles above the actual planetary surface. And there are also wide open spaces, presumably also on this level... such as the senate plaza.

MBTs may do OK there.

In a very limited space, they could be useful. I'll give you that.

Damnit, this bit is rapidly taking on Outrageous Okona levels of masturbatory fantasy. Stormtrooper and clonetrooper armor is resistant to kinetic impacts... Hey, so is a kevlar vest - it will stop a pistol round. A 5.56mm NATO rifle round however, will walk through it, and a 7.62mm SOVIET round will laugh at it. In all probability stormtrooper and clonetrooper armor is similar.

Do you know what the source of this "fantasy" is? I'll post it here for you:

From M. Wong's page:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... sc-SW.html

Body Armor Section

"Qorl stood inside the training chamber holding a wicked-looking spear in his black-wrapped left hand. His droid replacement gripped the gleaming shaft with enough force to dent the metal."
...
"He cocked his droid arm back - and hurled the deadly weapon ..."
"Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness."
...
"He looked down at his chest in amazement and saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck."

From an official novel, and therefore true unless in contradiction with canon.

The spear that Qorl threw at Norys carried much more momentum and impact force than any infantry weapon currently in service with any army. Not even a .50cal delivers anything close to that much energy. Stormtrooper armor is obviously designed to protect them from the wide range of projectile weapons which are easily produced or obtained by criminals and rebels.

US Army troops would have to use HEAT or other heavy weapons to hurt troopers so protected.

"Stormtrooper armor protects against kinetic impacts, therfore a stormtrooper could stand in front of the muzzel of one of the USS Iowa's guns when it fired and not be hurt at all."

Strawman, I never suggested that.

I guess those stormies who fell down when the Ewoks dropped rocks on them were just play-acting for the fun of it.

You can be concussed and knocked unconscious by that sort of impact right through your helmet. Being hit in the head by a fifty pound rock will knock almost anyone unconscious, and the clubs and smaller rocks in slings would disorient someone in armor at the least.

But look at those scenes again. The Stormtrooper armor is never actually penetrated by any of the Ewok attacks. All combat losses are apparently suffered due to blunt trauma.

I'll give you that. But then the US has plenty of direct fire as well.

Naturally.

None of which will help them against a battery of miniguns throwing a mountain of lead at them like raindrops in a storm.

Sure it would. If there was some very sturdy cover nearby, they could dive behind it before being shot.

Besides which, this is a red herring. Setting up a battery of miniguns, with accompanying ammo and batteries takes a lot of time and effort. It would require a lot of planning and luck for the US Army to set up an ambush powerful enough to take out the Jedi, which you have tacitly admitted here.

[Master of Ossus]

Wong's calculations are here. http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/index.html

The relevent section is here:

"Sigh ... I suppose I might as well explain elementary high school kinematics, since if IXJac is any indication, our education system has obviously failed us completely. The force produced by a collision is not simply its momentum with the units magically changed from kg*m/s to N. In order to calculate force, you need to divide the momentum change by the time duration. I've said before that there's more than one way to skin a cat, so I am about to show how you perform an impact analysis using momentum and velocity alone.

Let's say you're wearing rigid armour with no travel, and a projectile hits you with 10 kg*m/s of momentum. In order to determine the reaction force, you need to figure out how long it will take to stop (let's neglect your own acceleration, since it will be negligible compared to the bullet's velocity). In this idealized scenario, the armour doesn't deform at all, so the entire deceleration zone must be in the bullet itself. Suppose the tip squashes so that the bullet becomes 6 mm shorter during the impact (I just made that figure up; if you're a firearms geek, I'm sure you can get more accurate figures). This gives you 6 mm of deceleration space, and if the initial velocity was 1000 m/s, you have all the information you need. Simply remember that displacement = ½at², perform some substitutions, and you'll find that the bullet must stop in roughly 12 microseconds.

Divide the momentum by 12 microseconds, and you'll find that you need to apply more than 800 kN to stop that bullet! That's a bit higher than IXJac's 10 N figure, isn't it? Now, let's go back to that 3 mm wide impact area. The bearing stress on that area would be 800 kN divided by 7E-6 m², or more than 100 GPa! Since the strongest alloys in the world can handle less than 2 GPa, it's no wonder a rifle bullet will put a dent in just about anything, eh? But in order to punch out a hole clean through the plate, you've got to do a bit more work. You need shear out an 8 mm wide hole (wide enough for the 7.62mm bullet to pass through), and if it's a 5mm thick plate, the load-bearing area is roughly 18 times larger, so the shear stress drops to about 6 GPa. Unfortunately, this is still too large, which is why you need a bit of "give" in your body armour.

Realistically, the armour doesn't fit perfectly on your body. Moreover, your body is not rigid (even the armour isn't rigid). The combination of body armour, thickness, and deflection, in conjunction with your body's temporary deformation will all add some breathing room (let's say 1.5 inches). This would increase the deceleration zone from 6 mm to 44 mm, thus increasing the deceleration time from 12 microseconds to 88 microseconds. The reaction force would drop from 800 kN to 114 kN, the bearing stress would drop to 16 GPa, and the shear stress would drop to less than 900 MPa, which is within the limits of modern steel alloys. Mind you, this is still an idealized analysis; I am neglecting the effect of bending moment and the time of travel through the armour, both of which would further decrease the load. Moreover, I am using a fixed deformation on the part of the bullet, when realistically, you must compare the bullet's mechanical strength to the armour's mechanical strength to see which one will take the brunt of the damage. As I mentioned before, high speed photography shows rifle bullets disintegrating upon impact with very hard armour, so virtually all of their KE actually ends up going into self-destruction.

In the case of the spear-throwing incident, the tiny nick on the armour indicates that it is much stronger and tougher than the metallic spear, otherwise there should have been more damage. The human brain can withstand up to 300 G's of transient (as opposed to sustained) acceleration without injury, and the subject nearly lost consciousness from the impact against the far wall despite his padded helmet, so it seems likely that he was near the threshold. If we assume 1 inch of deflection from the helmet padding (which you can see in the SWVD), this means his head must stop in roughly 4 ms, and he was moving at speeds of up to 12 m/s, even if we disregard the braking effect of his feet sliding across the floor beneath him before impact. This gives him around 1000 kg*m/s of momentum (assuming 80 kg body weight). Even if the spear's mass was quite large (say, 10 pounds), it would still have to be moving at 220 m/s (around 500 miles per hour!) in order to send him flying backwards so violently. Small wonder they used a robot instead of a human to throw the spear, eh? Given the same 44 mm deflection, the reaction force exceeds 2.5 MN (although according to IXJac, force is completely irrelevant ... snicker). When you plug these figures into the equations used above for the bullet, keeping in mind how little damage was done to the armour and what a tiny contact area the "nick" would have been, you will see why I concluded that stormtrooper armour can deflect small-arms fire, even if it wasn't intuitively obvious to you before."