Elminster vs Raistlin

[SirNitram]

See, that vexs me. Bane, according to 2nd Ed, and the novel Hand Of Bane, was split into his thirteen Banelichs(Truly badass Undead priests. We're talking powerful enough to blast a normal Lich out of existance, but recluses), and the Hand Of Bane. The Hand was stored in the City Of Doors, Sigil. In the novel, the Hand is destroyed, as well as one of the Banelichs.

You can see how this might impede Lord Bane's ressurection. Oh, and I'm sure Xvim is pissed he lost the throne.

On a final note, is Waukeen, Goddess of Fortune, still trapped in the Abyss?

[Dead on Arrival]

This might upset you, but the cosmology of the Forgotten Realms no longer includes the 'Great Wheel' or Sigil! The only way to reach another cosmology is through the Plane of Shadow, which connects the prime and alternate material planes. So, events that happened in certain novels need a little bit of retconning...

Also, Waukeen is no longer being held by Graz'zt. What novel did that happen in anyway?

[Dead on Arrival]

Was just reading through Monsters of Faerun about Banelichs. It says that every 50-60 years since he became a god Bane granted the ritual to one of his priests, and at least 35 were created. Xvim released something called the Tyrantfog (any idea what that is?) and destroyed most of them, with the handful remaining skulking about with there own agendas. They may have been crucial in his revival, but I can't find anything specific about it.

[SirNitram]

I forget the novel, but I know it was in 'Faiths and Avatars' and one of the adventures.

The plane of SHADOW?! The most connected Prime world in the Multiverse, and they wrap the Shadowplane around it? I'm taking the easy path and retconning that nonsense for my campaigns...

[Dead on Arrival]

I think they did it this way because they aren't updating Spelljammer for 3rd Edition. Rather than leave the different worlds (Aber-Toril, Athas, Oerth, Krynn, etc) in the same material plane they made each an alternate material plane with its own cosmology. The 'Great Wheel' is described in the new Manual of the Planes, and is the cosmology used by Oerth. I am considering whether I am going to retcon it as well, haven't made up my mind yet...

[Alyrium Denryle]

In response to the lack of planar traveing in dragonlance.

IIRC renegade mages are handled differently depending on what order thier captor belongs too.

White: captures them for exile on another world(toril or oerth are favored for this purpose)

Red: Captures them for later execution

Black:kills them on site.

[lgot]

Bad writing? Have you actually read Chronicles or Legends? It is leaps and bounds beyond the garbage that Ed Greenwood passes off in his Elminster novels. Also, for the most part Elminster's levels don't really provide him with that big of an advantage.

yeah, if he meant that way, it was such mistaken. Even the Salvatore's Drow books - which are usually the FR series people more respect - is not match for Weiss and Hickman's and all Raistlin, Tas, Soth, Kitiara, Dalamar, Flint, Caramom and Tika's skillet.

Before he used the Bloodstone Amulet on Fistandantilus Raistlin was 21st level, but after using it gained the 4 level difference...so 25th level.

And from where you got such idea ? Raistlin did not get 4 level difference...
1 - Fistandantilus was 23 level. Not 25.
2 - The bloodstone says "If the victim exceeded the wizard in level, the wizards attains the higer level, gaining the experience points of his new level". If give the wearer a new level, not the level difference.

Both Elminster and Raistlin have access to the same level of spells (9th), but Raistlin follows a faster spell progression than Elminster...was able to cast 9th level spells when he was 13th level!

eh ? Raistlin follow exactly the same spell progression of Elminster. The Wizard of High Sorcery progression is a copy of the PhB 2nd edition progression and both get 9th level spell when achive the 18th level.

When he used the Bloodstone Amulet he not only gained levels, but gained the power and knowledge of everyone that Fistandantilus had used it on. In doing so he gained the life experiences of countless mages, some of which were older than Elminster. So, Elminster's age does not provide any advantage over Raistlin.

The bloodstone description did not say that. In the Legends Raistlin did not say a thing about such thing. You are assuming things.

Elminster's character level provides him with alot of resources, but at the same time Raistlin has in his possession multiple artifacts. The Staff of the Magius, the Dragon Orb, and the Bloodstone Amulet.

The Staff of Magius is a similar or ever minor variation of the Staff of the Mage, back in the second edition a magical item and only now labelled as a minor artifact. But yeah, Very good.
But When are you going to use Raistlin ?
After Legends he not more have any of those items (The Dragon orb is even lost). By what is seem in Dragons of Summer Flame he cannt and neither will wish to use the Bloodstone ever again.

As well, he has also CREATED artifacts...such as the device he built for Astinus. This feat is well beyond the ability of Elminster, or any other mage still walking the land of Aber-Toril. Raistlin has demonstrated significantly greater skill in the Art than Elminster h

eh ? The Crystall ball of Astinius os beyond what any mage in toril can do ??? Basead on what ? In The second edition any wizard could make magical items and now you just need the items creation feats. And plenty of Magic users in the new book of FR have such feats.
Raistlin is great, but Elminster is as well. After all, he had the higher level, which show his esperince being a mage is superior to those of raistlin.

We have his new statblock in the ELH. If you have characters above 20th level you use the ELH, how hard is that to comprehend? Incidentally, in the FRCS his caster level is only 25

You use the Epic rules and like the Epic rules says : you have to adapt the sheets of character in the FR book to those rules, because they did not used it all.
Second, to be epic, you must have Character level, not class level. Elminster is not only 25. When he reached the 20 lvl of character he could have kept his progression class as epic.

FRCS: (Chosen of Mystra) Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 20/Archmage 5/Epic 4 [caster level 25]
ELH: (Chosen of Mystra) Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5 [caster level 29]

The epic caster level only works for giving level and spells above 10. So does any casting level above 20. And the epic level is of caster level also (I doubt very much he was a epic fighter or rogue).
Since Archmage keep the progression he is in both 29th level caster of arcane magic.

Give Lord Shadow three levels of Improved Spellcasting and one level of Improved Metamagic so he can Empower Horrid Wilting 4 times to a 12th level equivalency. With one spell, of which he would have multiple he does ~50d8 damage with a Saving Throw that Elminster could not make. Well, ELH one might be able, but FRCS Elminster dries up into dust and then ends up at Safehold (his pocket dimension where he ends up when he 'dies').

Give ? What do you mean ? Get his stats and make it with the epic rules ?
butwatever, Lord Shadow is very powerful and is just one more arcane spellcaster of Toril with power to stand up with Raistlin, when in Krynn there is no such thing. Thanks for standing up for my point of how much FR is overpower compared to DL.

Yet, the mages and clerics in the Dark Queen's army were able to create floating citadels the likes of which is real 10th+ level magic on Toril. There are a TON of powerful mages/clerics on Krynn, which should be expected given at what level they can access the highest level spells. We don't see alot of them, because they are in the background while the story revolves around the heroes.

Its not 10th level. If she granted them this power she did it in a level less than 9th. So, in toril, if she shows up, she would do it in the same level.
There is not a ton of powerful mages/clerics.
About mages:
1 - Fistandantilus is called the most powerful wizard ever. He is just 23 lvl. All other, but Raistlin, are benneth him, so we know well the limitation of all other wizards of Krynn. (A 23lvl wizard in toril would be powerful, but hardly hardly the most powerful ever)
2 - In Raistlin time, we had the 3 leaders, which are the most powerful wizards them. Par-Salian is clearly labeled as such. Ladonna and Justarius are 17th level and Par-Salian 18th. Way Benneath Toril level.
3 - Dalamar was later seen as the potential head of the conclave for being the most powerful and Dalamar best sheet was above 18lvl. We know well the limitations of Krynn wizards (Note to say, a official story, which tell Dalamar, Elminster and Mordenkain used to plane travel to meet and chat and in such story, when Simbul shows up and dalamar start to cast to attack her, the other two mages stop him with a "do not angry her, she would defeat us all". )
4 - By that we see the top of Krynn is low, so all the powerful mages in the background is actually bellow that.
for clerics :
1 - There is no plenty of clerics. There was no clerics for centuries and Goldmoon was the first one. Then Elistan. We know they are the top for good clerics. Elistan when dies let clear Crysania was the most suited to replace him, because Crysania was the most powerful. And She was only 14th level when that happen. We see again the powerful cleric hiding are behind her and Goldmoon, both never displayed above 20th level.
2 - For evil, Ariakus was called the most powerful cleric of Tarkhisis and he is 23 lvl. We see here the limitation, all other evil clerics would be bellow him
And besides: You speculate. Tell me, show me such beings. They are not shown ? So, you just speculate their existence.

You implied he had knowledge of Netherse magic, which is not true. He might have knowledge of there history or culture, but no mortal mage has knowledge of access to higher than 9th level spells. Epic spells are not the same, and in most cases pale reflections of what the Netherese or Elven High Magic can accomplish.

well, I never said he could cast it, but I reckon i used all in the same phrase, therefore is possible the confusion.
Also i never said epic high level spells are the same. I just pointed how Toril shows more power by the simple fact there happened wizards able to do so, before the epics spells coming out.

Almost all of Elminster's power comes from his novels, his stats are a pale reflection of some of his deeds. However, as I have already shown his stats don't provide any real advantages over Raistlin, and Raistlin has shown considerable more power in the Art than Elminster ever has.

Likewise, Raistlin power come from his novels. Raistlin had for example only 17 of inteligence. You know what would mean ? No 9th level.

Huh? He discarded her long before the Dark Queen ran out of forces to throw at him.

Funny, but he left her, say the he have hurry and that he will challenge her. Next step he is talking with the Dark Queen. There is not long before,as Raistlin himself stats he had short time and nothing else is shown about what is done between. You speculate again.
And besides, Raistlin admits that facing just her personal guards "He lived...Just barely". He did not walked by like was his home like you claim. He was so weak that he could not cast a spell after leaving there.That Dalamar stats.

Did what? The Dark Queen LET them escape, hence the whole bit where Tas sees the landscape change into an image of Raistlin's mother with the message for him.

You said no other mortal could go there. Just in this book we have four: Caramon, Crysania, Tas and the Gnome.
Not to say, that if you play Planescape you see that is possible to do it. Plane shift do it and its just a5th lvl cleric spell.

So what? His ability to travel to different planes doesn't give him any kind of advantage over Raistlin. Krynn's cosmology is different to Oerth or Toril.

eh ? The planes rules are the same. They use the same Manual of PLanes, Planescape. etc. Their Gods can be found in the Elysium, Pangea, etc.

So, what you are saying is...where Elminster would tread lightly, Raistlin barreled through with raw power?

You know that means that mortals can travel by the planes, not only him. They just need the knowledge. Raistlin would never do it, for everyone knew his intentions.

Read it again. Upon drawing her to the material plane, Krynn itself would provide the power he needed to defeat her...the feat was in actually being able to wield said power. The other gods, except perhaps the three moons of magic, had nothing to do with it.

Raistlin: "The God themselves would answer his call, for the Queen appering in the world with all her might and majesty would bring down the wraith of heavens". Seems like he wanted the gods to fight with her.
Not to say the Dark Queen do not die until he became a God himself.

After he destroyed the Dark Queen, he then destroyed the other gods. Also, even in a weakened state she could still smite him and everyone for miles in an instant. A mortal being cannot destory a D&D divinity, it is impossible

You wrong. When he was already a God, the Dark Queen still alive. Only her, Paladin and Astinius. He say that. Also he does not go and kill her, he say she fade away.
Plus, How is impossible for a mortal to kill a god if we...Have Raistlin who did it, have the gods killed in athas, have Midnight , which was a mortal yet , to kill one also. Very hard, but not impossible.

LOL! Yeah right. If you are talking about the avatar trilogy, then I will again point out that weakened avatarforms don't represent a god. He also never defeated any of them, as I also pointed out.

No, he defeated the God of Mages of Toril in an Wizard competition.

They are not the same being. They may be based upon the same Babylonian myth, but they are not the same god. Both Tiamat and Bahamut are Lesser Gods in Deities and Demigods, while there is another force also known as Tiamat that rules in the Muhlorandi pantheon on Aber-Toril. Same names, but they are not the same gods.

The writters of Dragolance say she is the same. Not me.

In response to the lack of planar traveing in dragonlance.

I must point out that i never said they do not travel in planes, but that they show inferior knowledge, which means they do not study the planes more often. Plus the Planescape setting let clear the FR is the material plane where it happens more often.