Is the Emperor of Man Evil?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2006-05-07 12:42pm

The fluff states that the Emperor is aware even though he is plugged into his Golden Throne. Considering the state of the Imperium with its runaway corruption that grinds people under their medieval like boot heel you have to wonder why the Emperor hasn't intervened in some way. Just a telepathic audience with the Lords of Terra telling them "This has to stop." Would be enough.

However through his inaction is he giving a tacit approval to what the Imperium has become.

To be clear on my point, I am making a very basic assumption that under the Emperor's direct rule (pre Horus heresy) the Imperium wasn't run like a medieval insitution obssessed with his divinity and treating men like cogs in a great machine. If I'm wrong and the IoM was always like what we see in 'currrent' WH40K timeline then I have to wonder is the Emperor a heroic figure at all? Are all the factions villains then?

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2006-05-07 12:55pm

The latest Horus Heresy book mentions that while he was alive (as in 'normal' alive, not 'crippled and on life support' alive like he is now) he actively supressed the growing movement to venerate him as a god. Also his chosen representative (Horus) tended to use diplomacy first instead of violence and IIRC there was mention of alien protectorates (as opposed to the xenophobic IoM of the future).

I believe he was a good man, just that now he has evil people acting 'on his behalf' using what they believe were his intentions.

If he does have the power to tell the High Lords to stop, then my guess as to why he doesn't is that it would probably cause a schism. Most of the IoM is brainwashed into thinking what is happening now is his wish, so if someone suddenly comes along and says it isn't? There's going to be a good old believers vs unbelievers fight to the death. I'd also bet that the High Lords would be rather reluctanct to change a system that is working nicely for them.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-05-07 01:01pm

He was raised in prehistoric turkey, and has lived through all our fuedalism and general shitsticks. What's more, he's seen all social progressivism fail in his lifetime, I doubt he cares much about people being repressed peasants. Chances are, he considers it normal. And yes, he's evil - in that he is determined that his race should conquer all others regardless of consequences or suffering. He's caused the extermination of various entire sapient species. His innocent-deaths count, just from the crusade alone, must be thousands of times Stalin or Mao's.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2006-05-07 01:10pm

From what I've come to understand the GEoM is currently locked in constant battle with the Chaos Gods. This conflict is so overwhelmingly consuming of his time that he can't divert his attention from it.

Of course during that whole Vandire thing he raised a Warp Storm (well, it's attributed to him) and communicated with the Sisters of Battle.

I wonder if it isn't so much that he approves but is acting on knowledge we don't necessarily have access to, Eldar Farseers can see the future, and the GEoM has powers that should vastly outstrip theirs.

I also wonder if it's a possibility that the GEoM is being driven insane by his slow metamorphosis into a Chaos God.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2006-05-07 01:13pm

He seems (at least to me) not so much evil as he is utterly pitiless in the pursuit of his goal, which is to ensure that Mankind is dominant and doesn't get eaten alive by the chaos gods. In the pursuit of that goal, the well-being of any particular individual, or world, would seem like nothing to him.

Siege · Post by **Siege** » 2006-05-07 01:42pm

From what I've read, he struck me more as amoral than immoral. It just seems that in his pursuit to install mankind as the supreme power over, well, everything, everything and everyone is ultimately expendable. He's definately not a very nice person though.

Post by **Kuja** » 2006-05-07 01:45pm

He isn't actively evil. However, he IS an unsympathetic bastard akin to prequel Yoda who takes such a long view of things that he forgets the consequences of what he's doing to bring those goals about. I think his biggest mistake was forgetting that people are people: they are random, emotional, and sometimes broken somehow. Otherwise he would never have let primarchs like Alpharius and Night Haunter or Angron get away from him.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-05-07 01:46pm

Originally Posted by NecronLord:{/b]
He's caused the extermination of various entire sapient species. His innocent-deaths count, just from the crusade alone, must be thousands of times Stalin or Mao's.

Apart from the Laer, what other nameless alien races did the Emperor eradicate during the Great Crusads?

And wasn't the total destruction of the really Fulgrim's responsibility and not the Emperor's, plus their was earlier mention of certain alien races ending up in protectorates - heck even the Laer was going to be part of a protectorate until the pretentious, ultra xenophobic Fulgrim decided to jump the gun and slaughter them all with his own space marines.

The God Emperor of Man is certainly very evil by our present day standards; but in comparison to the Chaos gods, the C'Tan or the Tyranids he's a fucking saint. I wouldn't say that the Emperor's obsession for the total domination of humanity over others is really a good thing - Adolf Hitler was fatally obssessed for the total domination of the German Volk and he certainly not painted as a good guy in the history for believing that...

Base Delta Zero · Post by **Base Delta Zero** » 2006-05-07 01:46pm

He seems (at least to me) not so much evil as he is utterly pitiless in the pursuit of his goal, which is to ensure that Mankind is dominant and doesn't get eaten alive by the chaos gods. In the pursuit of that goal, the well-being of any particular individual, or world, would seem like nothing to him.

That's pretty much textbook evil, considering, not just a few individuals or worlds are screwed, but the entire thing is messed up.

But anyways, I doubt the High Lords really care what the Emperor wants - I got the impression they're in it solely for themselves. Do we really even know whether he's ever given someone a telepathic message while in the golden throne, besides what some people say?

Of course, it could be that the Emperor can see the future, and knows that the Imperium will get better once chaos is defeated etc (can chaos be defeated?), so for now, it's opression is 'acceptable'

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2006-05-07 01:54pm

Long ago the Emperor decided, 'The End justifys the Means.' Looking at him from our point of view he can be construed as 'evil' - at least to an extent. From the internal point of view of 40k he's fairly 'good' - at least from mankinds perspective. If you're a filthy Xenos then he's not so hot.

Personally I'll always think of the Emperor as good. Doing everything he can to ensure the survival of mankind & making sure we become top-dogs in a Galaxy full of nasty, horrible, things that want to see us all dead.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2006-05-07 02:09pm

Stravo wrote: If I'm wrong and the IoM was always like what we see in 'currrent' WH40K timeline then I have to wonder is the Emperor a heroic figure at all? Are all the factions villains then?

During the last World wide campaign Games Workshop did not have Good/Evil or Evil Light-Dark as the designations for the 40K factions. It was Order and Disorder. In 40K it's really a choice between Evil and EVIL. Between being crushed under the heels of a beurcratic machine or being Slaughtered for fun by a bunch of nutjobs.

The Imperium is bad really bad, and maybe the Emps gives his if not support then at least his consent to a brutal regime the likes of which has not been seen before, BUT it's still better than the Chaos alternative. (No Really it is, Traitor General shows us what the Chaos alternative is.

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2006-05-07 03:12pm

The Emperor is evil in that he is a callous bastard who doesn't care for the individual or alien races. He's good in the fact that he is stopping at nothing to ensure that mankind survives and doesn't have to worry about being threatened by destruction from anything no matter what it costs.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-05-07 03:34pm

From OUR perspective, as humans, the Emperor is a good guy. He's looking out for the survival of humanity, in a way you could say he's a humanist extremist.

But by the same token, he's evil from every OTHER race's perspective.

Though he is not, from what i know, opposed to letting races other than humans survive if they are quiet and not dangerous at all.

In the long run he cant do anything though because he's using every fiber of his being to fight against Chaos and so he cant stop the Imperium. But the Imperium as it is is not what he wanted, in a way its the opposite of what he intended.

He didnt intend to be worshiped, or to have technological backsliding, or to have stagnation or such brutality. These things are AGAINST human survival not for it, he wouldnt have gone for anything against human survival.

He's the Warp God of Mankind, his only goal in life is to see to the survival of the human race and the fulfilments of our needs above all else. Including the lives of any other race, or any human who could place our future in danger.

So, as i personally see no problem in looking out for mankind first and aliens second, i wouldnt say he's "evil" just that he's very narrow minded.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-05-07 04:00pm

Originally Posted by 18-Till-I-Die:
So, as i personally see no problem in looking out for mankind first and aliens second, i wouldnt say he's "evil" just that he's very narrow minded.

But Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler and Reinhard Heydrich were all very narrow minded and so were the worst dictatorships in human history; how can the Emperor of Mankind be any better?

And he caused destruction on an epic and galaxy wide scale, even though he's supposedly doing it for the good of humanity. But WH40K is all about moral relativism anyway and the Emperor is not pure, outright evil in comparison to the C'Tan or Chaos gods.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-05-07 04:07pm

Big Orange wrote:
Originally Posted by 18-Till-I-Die:
So, as i personally see no problem in looking out for mankind first and aliens second, i wouldnt say he's "evil" just that he's very narrow minded.
But Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler and Reinhard Heydrich were all very narrow minded and so were the worst dictatorships in human history; how can the Emperor of Mankind be any better?

Because they werent trying to ensure humanity's survival they were trying to get power. There is a difference in the goals of Hitler and the goals of the Emperor.

And dont start with that calling me a Nazi shit.

Do i want to exterminate all alien life, no. Am i going to get horribly upset if humanity conquers the galaxy, also no.

YOU are a human, what do you think the Eldar will do to you? Blow you kisses? How about the Orks? The Nids? Necrons?

Face it, in 40k, maybe even in the real universe, its survival of the fittest. If humanity remained content to hold the cock of every ET we ever met we'd end up exterminated by someone just as bad as the current Imperium.

We NEED the Emperor's brutality to fucking survive.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-05-07 04:10pm

BTW notice thats what i said also, "I dont have any problem putting humanity's survival as my first priority"

In other words, i will look out for YOU and ME before i try protecting little green men from the Astartes.

Do i value human life over aliens? Sure. I dont want aliens exterminated like teh current Imperium, or think they should be enslaved like the Galactic Empire, but i sure as hell dont want them to get the upper hand on us either.

Know why? Because i'm HUMAN i dont want my species to become extinct trying to play fair when everyone else is cheating.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-05-07 04:24pm

As usual, I will point out that there's no proof that the C'tan eat people at anything like the rate the Emperor does. The evidence suggests their raids are ultra-rare.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2006-05-07 05:05pm

As I see it, the Imperium is doing, in broad, what the Emperor needs it to do. It is:

1. Ensuring humanity's physical survival through military and diplomatic means.

2. Controlling psykers by destroying the ones which are out of control and training those which can be controlled.

3. Maintaining the Astronomican.

These are the things which need to be done if the Emperor is to attain his goal: shepherding humanity into its new form as a psychic race, one with the warp and free of the pernicious influence of the Chaos Gods. The Imperium is doing its job; maybe not the best job possible, but if it ain't broke...

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-05-07 08:15pm

Personally the first thing I thought when I read about the Emperor in the Golden Throne was that he wasn't giving any orders whatsoever, and those carrying out "his will" are really just carrying out their own while pretending to speak for him- like the Papacy.

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2006-05-07 08:36pm

Vympel wrote:Personally the first thing I thought when I read about the Emperor in the Golden Throne was that he wasn't giving any orders whatsoever, and those carrying out "his will" are really just carrying out their own while pretending to speak for him- like the Papacy.

For the vast majority of cases, that is the situation. The High Lords "interperate" the will of the Emperor and issues edicts in His name.
For a brief time after his incarceration in the Throne he was able to speak on occasions, possibly ordering the Grey Knights at this time, then he lost the ability.

As for being evil, you have to consider the galaxy that the IoM exists in. You try to be nice there, give every citizen the rights and freedoms we do, treat aliens as neighbours etc. and in a very short time the Imperium will be destroyed and deamons will be running rampant through all the unstable psykers who are now left alive.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-05-07 09:17pm

I choose to believe he's good, overall, in a harsh universe, in a galaxy full of war, he's looking out for us, taking the fight to the forces of hell in their domain, and like Jack Bauer, he understands the sorts of sacrifices you've got to make in order to get to the best goal. He'd kill his own children for the sake of the rest of us.

He is probably apathetic of common suffering because he's seen the terrors of the warp, he's known them for millennia. Normal life being made slightly better becomes a totally unimportant goal when you've looked chaos in the eye. Survival against that is what truly matters, and that can be best brought about by human dominance in the galaxy.

It's possible that if all went to plan, the humans are supreme and he got a new body, he'd be alright to talk to, if he wasn't irreparably scarred by his extremely long experience, and would help kittens out of trees and such for little girls.

If he did fix the galaxy of all antihuman threats, what would his next goal be? A culture-like utopia? Or would he make an intergalactic fleet and continue the fight against the beings in new galaxies?

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2006-05-07 11:46pm

The survival of the human race is the ultimate moral imperative.

Zor · Post by **Zor** » 2006-05-08 12:38am

Just wondering, was the Imperium under the Emperor in favor of exterminating every single alien in existance? I ask because i know the more evil stuff in the Imperium is not the Emperor's fault but that of the High Lords.

Zor

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2006-05-08 01:20am

Has anyone noticed that the current state of the IoM, and the state it's been in for thousands of years, is not assuring humanity's survival? The IoM has been in continual decline since practically the Heresy. The Tyranids are coming up, the C'tan are loose, and the Traitor Legions and the Forces of Chaos are, if anything, stronger than the times of the Heresy (as far as I know they aren't declining anyway.)

The IoM is corrupt (both by humans, Chaos, and C'tan), running out of irreplaceable technology and resources (gene-seed), and out-numbered by the Tyranids.

Unless GW actively does something humanity is totally fucked.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-05-08 01:31am

In 40K everyone is totally fucked in some capacity or another.

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Is the Emperor of Man Evil?

Is the Emperor of Man Evil?

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