Finally read the Halo books

[Alyeska]

A 30 MT gift on the surface for Convenant ships that move by was considered deadly.

What do you mean by this? Where did you get this from?

TFOR has John and his team leaving a present on the surface for any Covie ships to cross its path. IIRC it was in the mid MT range.

[Black Admiral]

TFOR has John and his team leaving a present on the surface for any Covie ships to cross its path. IIRC it was in the mid MT range.

The Chief just said it was going to be used for taking out a dropship.

And yes, it was 30MT.

[Darth Wong]

I scanned through all 15 pages of that thread and this is the only thing I found close to what you were saying. I never stated that the DarkTrooper couldn't hit MC as a result of this though - I don't know where you're getting that from...

It's possible I got you mixed up with The Kernel. I know one of you was claiming that the DT wouldn't be able to hit MC.

[Luzifer's right hand]

A 30 MT gift on the surface for Convenant ships that move by was considered deadly.

What do you mean by this? Where did you get this from?

TFOR has John and his team leaving a present on the surface for any Covie ships to cross its path. IIRC it was in the mid MT range.

An unshielded ship.

TFoR page 2:

Red Team would then plant a HAVOK tactical nuke.
When the next Covenant ship landed, dropped its shield, and started to unload its troops, they'd get a thirthy-megaton surprise.

[Darth Wong]

TFOR has John and his team leaving a present on the surface for any Covie ships to cross its path. IIRC it was in the mid MT range.

The Chief just said it was going to be used for taking out a dropship.

And yes, it was 30MT.

They crashed a fighter onto a Covenant ship (a big warship, not a dropship) and set off the nuke, destroying the vessel.

Proximity blasts from nukes also took out Covenant shields instantly. Not only that, but Cortana discovered that Covenant fusion reactors were actually less efficient than human ones.

[Black Admiral]

They crashed a fighter onto a Covenant ship (a big warship, not a dropship) and set off the nuke, destroying the vessel.

Yes, a Shiva nuke, which is a whole lot bigger than groundside tac-nukes. Also, that ship's shields reflected the blast inwards.

Proximity blasts from nukes also took out Covenant shields instantly.

No they didn't. During the battle of Reach four nuclear mines were detonated in the midst of the Covenant fleet, and the only ships affected were the ones that had already lost shields from the fleet's MAC fire.

Not only that, but Cortana discovered that Covenant fusion reactors were actually less efficient than human ones.

Page number?

[Darth Wong]

It's also noteworthy that direct hits from Covenant plasma weapons would damage but not destroy ships so small that 20 of them could form into a wall and hide behind a 1 square kilometre plate.

These ships have roughly 1.5 metres of "Titanium A" armour plating and no shields. How powerful can these plasma weapons really be, if they can't even take out unshielded vessels with a single hit?

[constantine]

They crashed a fighter onto a Covenant ship (a big warship, not a dropship) and set off the nuke, destroying the vessel.

Proximity blasts from nukes also took out Covenant shields instantly. Not only that, but Cortana discovered that Covenant fusion reactors were actually less efficient than human ones.

It sounds like you're thinking of the Shiva nuke - the yield for the Shiva is unknown.

[constantine]

It's also noteworthy that direct hits from Covenant plasma weapons would damage but not destroy ships so small that 20 of them could form into a wall and hide behind a 1 square kilometre plate.

Where did you get this from?
On pg 156, it says, "...three destroyers could be eclipsed by her shadow."

These ships have roughly 1.5 metres of "Titanium A" armour plating and no shields. How powerful can these plasma weapons really be, if they can't even take out unshielded vessels with a single hit?

When has a UNSC ship survived a plasma torpedo?

The only ship I can think of (besides the Pillar of Autumn) is the Commonwealth which had 2 meters of 'Titanium-A' and when it was hit, it had lost 5 whole decks. The Covenant plasma torpedo was also only 5 meters in diameter compared to other plasma torps that were described as being 100 meters in diameter.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, a Shiva nuke, which is a whole lot bigger than groundside tac-nukes. Also, that ship's shields reflected the blast inwards.

So? It's not one of those little HAVOK footballs, but it's not a teraton weapon, is it?

Proximity blasts from nukes also took out Covenant shields instantly.

No they didn't. During the battle of Reach four nuclear mines were detonated in the midst of the Covenant fleet, and the only ships affected were the ones that had already lost shields from the fleet's MAC fire.

No shit, since almost all of the ships would have been far, far from these nukes. We're talking about 314 ships spread over a 3000km wide area, for fuck's sake. At those ranges, my fucking car could survive 4 nukes going off. But in other battles, you can clearly see that a nuke will take out shields.

Not only that, but Cortana discovered that Covenant fusion reactors were actually less efficient than human ones.

Page number?

"the Covenant used an inefficient method to collect and direct the chaotic plasma into a controllable trajectory" p.171 First Strike. Cortana would quickly devise a far more efficient system on the fly, capable of destroying a Covenant cruiser with a single hit (whereas it would normally take two; one to take out its shields and a second to destroy the vessel outright).

"Alas, the Covenant's grasp of Maxwell's equations was ironically inferior to human technology." p.172 First Strike. Not good when you're trying to design nuclear fusion reactors.

I'm not sure exactly where the fusion reactor quote is; it was a throwaway line and it'll be harder to find. But it's pretty clear that the Covenant's grasp of electromagnetism (not exactly a minor component of fusion reactors) is inferior to that of humanity.

[Darth Wong]

It's also noteworthy that direct hits from Covenant plasma weapons would damage but not destroy ships so small that 20 of them could form into a wall and hide behind a 1 square kilometre plate.

Where did you get this from?
On pg 156, it says, "...three destroyers could be eclipsed by her shadow."

Oh, so 20 ships formed up into a wall and hid behind a 1 square kilometre repair station by overlapping each other?

These ships have roughly 1.5 metres of "Titanium A" armour plating and no shields. How powerful can these plasma weapons really be, if they can't even take out unshielded vessels with a single hit?

When has a UNSC ship survived a plasma torpedo?

You ask this and then go on to list two examples for me? What are you trying to prove?

The only ship I can think of (besides the Pillar of Autumn) is the Commonwealth which had 2 meters of 'Titanium-A' and when it was hit, it had lost 5 whole decks. The Covenant plasma torpedo was also only 5 meters in diameter compared to other plasma torps that were described as being 100 meters in diameter.

So? How does this change the fact that teraton yields are clearly far out of line for such ships, particularly when even the monster Unyielding Heirophant has nowhere near the power you would need to fire such a weapon?

[Black Admiral]

So? It's not one of those little HAVOK footballs, but it's not a teraton weapon, is it?

No, it isn't. It's possible to argue for it being GT-range though, based the description of the Super MACs as the UNSC's 'most powerful non-nuclear weapon.' (TFoR, page 296)

No shit, since almost all of the ships would have been far, far from these nukes. We're talking about 314 ships spread over a 3000km wide area, for fuck's sake. At those ranges, my fucking car could survive 4 nukes going off. But in other battles, you can clearly see that a nuke will take out shields.

When? The only time that's happened is when Keyes used a Shiva to EMP a pair of Covenant frigate's shields:

There was a flash of white, a crackle of lightning, and the two alien ships vanished as a cloud of destruction enveloped them. Waves of the EMP interacted with the magnetic field of Sigma Octanus IV - rippled with rainbow borealis. The cloud of vapor expanded and cooled, and cooled to yellow, orange, red, then black dust that scattered into space.

Both Covenant frigates, however, were intact. Their shields, however, flickered once... then went dead.

On on page 112, a Covenant frigate survives a Shiva detonating 100 meters from it:

"All sensors offline," the ops officer said. "Resetting backup computer. Hang on. Scanning now. A lot of debris. It's hot back there. All Longsword interceptors vaporised." He looked up, the color drained from his face. "Covenant ship... intact, sir."

"the Covenant used an inefficient method to collect and direct the chaotic plasma into a controllable trajectory" p.171 First Strike. Cortana would quickly devise a far more efficient system on the fly, capable of destroying a Covenant cruiser with a single hit (whereas it would normally take two; one to take out its shields and a second to destroy the vessel outright).

"Alas, the Covenant's grasp of Maxwell's equations was ironically inferior to human technology." p.172 First Strike. Not good when you're trying to design nuclear fusion reactors.

I'm not sure exactly where the fusion reactor quote is; it was a throwaway line and it'll be harder to find. But it's pretty clear that the Covenant's grasp of electromagnetism (not exactly a minor component of fusion reactors) is inferior to that of humanity.

Well then, point conceeded.

[constantine]

It's also noteworthy that direct hits from Covenant plasma weapons would damage but not destroy ships so small that 20 of them could form into a wall and hide behind a 1 square kilometre plate.

Where did you get this from?
On pg 156, it says, "...three destroyers could be eclipsed by her shadow."

Oh, so 20 ships formed up into a wall and hid behind a 1 square kilometre repair station by overlapping each other?

Wall? Am I understanding you correctly? It was described as a phalanx formation. The way you make it sound, they were stacked on top of each other and parallel...

The only ship I can think of (besides the Pillar of Autumn) is the Commonwealth which had 2 meters of 'Titanium-A' and when it was hit, it had lost 5 whole decks. The Covenant plasma torpedo was also only 5 meters in diameter compared to other plasma torps that were described as being 100 meters in diameter.

So? How does this change the fact that teraton yields are clearly far out of line for such ships, particularly when even the monster Unyielding Heirophant has nowhere near the power you would need to fire such a weapon?

I don't know...
I couldn't answer that when Connor asked the same question.

[constantine]

It's also noteworthy that direct hits from Covenant plasma weapons would damage but not destroy ships so small that 20 of them could form into a wall and hide behind a 1 square kilometre plate.

Where did you get this from?
On pg 156, it says, "...three destroyers could be eclipsed by her shadow."

Oh, so 20 ships formed up into a wall and hid behind a 1 square kilometre repair station by overlapping each other?

Actually, I don't know why I'm arguing with you here...that sounds about right...

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

It's also noteworthy that direct hits from Covenant plasma weapons would damage but not destroy ships so small that 20 of them could form into a wall and hide behind a 1 square kilometre plate.

These ships have roughly 1.5 metres of "Titanium A" armour plating and no shields. How powerful can these plasma weapons really be, if they can't even take out unshielded vessels with a single hit?

Well Mike they were obviously "holding back"


No, but seriously though, there is some evidence to support this idea, specifically at the end of First Strike. I also believe one of the characters stated (either Keynes or MC, I forget which) that they believed the only reason they won was because the Covenant wanted them to....

[Black Admiral]

No, but seriously though, there is some evidence to support this idea, specifically at the end of First Strike. I also believe one of the characters stated (either Keynes or MC, I forget which) that they believed the only reason they won was because the Covenant wanted them to....

That's in The Fall of Reach actually, after the 2nd battle of Octanus IV, and it was Keyes.

[Darth Wong]

Well Mike they were obviously "holding back"

*bzzzt* you have been fined one credit for a violation of the "no holding back excuse" statute.

No, but seriously though, there is some evidence to support this idea, specifically at the end of First Strike. I also believe one of the characters stated (either Keynes or MC, I forget which) that they believed the only reason they won was because the Covenant wanted them to....

Are you referring to the part where they had the Holy Light and the Covies wouldn't shoot at them because they didn't want to destroy it?

[Black Admiral]

Are you referring to the part where they had the Holy Light and the Covies wouldn't shoot at them because they didn't want to destroy it?

The part where Keyes says that, in his opinion, the only reason that the UNSC won at Octanus IV was because the Covenant weren't trying to win, I think.

[Darth Wong]

Are you referring to the part where they had the Holy Light and the Covies wouldn't shoot at them because they didn't want to destroy it?

The part where Keyes says that, in his opinion, the only reason that the UNSC won at Octanus IV was because the Covenant weren't trying to win, I think.

Oh THAT; well, that was because the Covenant's mission objective was something other than the total destruction of the Earth fleet. Basically, he felt that any time the Covenant withdrew rather than fighting to the last man, they must have not been fighting to win. But there was one incident where they left a homing device that attached itself to the Iroquois; obviously, in that case they didn't want to destroy every Earth ship.

[Connor MacLeod]

TFoR 117:

He slid under barbed wire as bullets zinged over his head. He stood, and let the rounds deflect off the armor. To his amazment, he actually dodged one or two of the rounds.

This sounds more liked fire from stationary weapons to keep the heads of the users of the course down.

He also sounds surprised at actually having actually done it (even though he only "dodged" a few.. most just hit him.), which tends to suggest the "misses" were accidental - not that he actually saw the bullets in flight moving towards him and stepped aside before they reached him. If he "dodged" he could have stepped out of the way of the gun, rather than the bullet.

Another problem is that for MC to dodge bullets, he needs to be capable of accelerating at tens or hundreds of gees minimum (Mike's covered this long ago and why its bullshit.) Foot traction is totally incapable of generating this degree of acceleration, which means that he either has telekinesis or some sort of forcefield technology to provide both the acceleration as well as the inertial damping effects (since a huuman body cannot withstand that level of acceleration in most circumstnaces.) - yet if he had either, he could more easily shield himself against the bullets (hell, he has shielding and armor that is relatively bullet proof already.)

Moreover, IIRC MC's speed is already established in other sources, and that speed suggests he is perhaps rather incapable of moving at supersonic/hypersonic speeds, much less rapidly accelerating to those speeds.

[Alyeska]

Such G forces to dodge a bullet are impossible and this is demonstrated by the Spartans who died or where otherwise injurred in their free wall from the sky.

[Dragannia]

Moreover, IIRC MC's speed is already established in other sources, and that speed suggests he is perhaps rather incapable of moving at supersonic/hypersonic speeds, much less rapidly accelerating to those speeds.

I doubt anyone could move at supersonic/hypersonic speeds on foot. MC dodging bullets like Agent Smith is just ridiculous.

[Kuja]

As for First Strike, I found that more compelling than Fall of Reach, so I'd say 8/10.

I'll bet you just loved the Covenant Engineers.