Wheel of Time "pilot" on youtube

[Guardsman Bass]

The other day, Red Eagle Entertainment (which currently has the rights to produce a television/movie/game adaptation of the Wheel of Time series) produced an ashcan "pilot episode" featuring Billy Zane*. Not because they're about to make it into a TV Series, although Red Eagle is claiming they want to do a Game of Thrones-esque series on it at some point (read below about any claims by them). They just did it because otherwise their rights would expire.

As to why this sucks, here's some back-story on Red Eagle. The long version is here, but essentially they've done nothing useful with the rights in the more than seven years that they've had them, and have mis-managed any potential projects that came up along the way. Barring successful legal action by Robert Jordan's estate (and that is undoubtedly in progress), they've now extended their control over the rights to continue doing nothing useful with them.

* I don't get why they bothered hiring Billy Zane for an ashcan copy, unless he's so desperate for work that he was willing to take SAG scale. Why not hire a bunch of unknowns and then recast everyone in case you do actually get a serious effort at a series?

EDIT: To add, Red Eagle is so bad that Robert Jordan spent a big chunk of the last blog post he ever wrote under his own name bashing them.

[FaxModem1]

The blog you linked to does not exist.

[Themightytom]

http://www.theverge.com/2015/2/9/800838 ... -pilot-fxx

[The Romulan Republic]

Wheel of Time may never be faithfully adapted. Even for a TV series, it would be fucking long. It would also require a massive budget and piss a lot of people off (there's simply no arguing that the series is sexist).

You could take some of the concepts and rework them into a very loose adaptation, but the fans wouldn't like that. So you're screwed either way.

Edit: As for this, a lot of it was badly acted and the special effects were wanting. And it could have been shorter.

[mr friendly guy]

Since the link doesn't work, can someone explain what exactly was Jordan's beef with Red Eagle Entertainment?

And I second Romulan Republic's statement about WoT being god forsakenly long, which would be difficult to do for Western audiences. *

*While some Asian television series are really long with the same basic story, routinely running 40-50 episodes and sometimes more, I am unaware of this being done for Western audiences. The closest is Game of Thrones.

[The Romulan Republic]

The one good thing about Wheel of Time's length is that a lot of that is characters' thoughts and scenery descriptions, which don't necessarily have to take up much time on film, and some of it is just straight up unnecessary.

[Jub]

The one good thing about Wheel of Time's length is that a lot of that is characters' thoughts and scenery descriptions, which don't necessarily have to take up much time on film, and some of it is just straight up unnecessary.

Yeah, it's a pretty good blessing for any potential show based on the license. Depending on how you want to go with it some books might be condensed down to an episode or two, the entire middle of the series with loads of politics and not much action for example could be a single season, while others like the first four books might be most of (or all of) a season on their own.

[Darth Holbytlan]

Working version of the broken link:

http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2015/02 ... ut-of.html

[Mr Bean]

Since the link doesn't work, can someone explain what exactly was Jordan's beef with Red Eagle Entertainment?

And I second Romulan Republic's statement about WoT being god forsakenly long, which would be difficult to do for Western audiences. *

*While some Asian television series are really long with the same basic story, routinely running 40-50 episodes and sometimes more, I am unaware of this being done for Western audiences. The closest is Game of Thrones.

Jordan's beef in short was that Red Eagle was massively incompetent. Like CEO of HP incompetent and the only reason Red Eagle was not more famous was because of HOW incompetent they were. They never built themselves up to a point that their failures lost a lot of money because they never managed to make any in the first place. Red Eagle was set up specifically to bring Wheel of Time to movies, TV shows and videos games. After almost a decade they failed to do any of those things not even an EA trash mobile game which yes they tried to do.

Also people think Wheel of Time is unfulfillable, I disagree, Game of Thrones has demonstrated this. We endless talk about how Book character is not Show character on Game of Thrones. The over all plot of Wheel of Time can be condensed the same way Game of Thrones was. I've seen charts (Can't find them) of how Eye of the World would take six episodes max to tell.

1. Dragonmount to Bel Tine ending with the attack on Rand's Farm
2. Return to Emond's Field to Leaving Baerlon in the night
3. Entering Shadar Logoth and the first party split Rand portion ends with Whitebridge escape, while Perrin meets Elayis
4. Rand/Matt running the Darkfriend gauntlet to Caemlyn and ends with him in the garden, while Perrin meets and is saved from the Whitecloaks
5. Rest of Caemlyn plot and the last ten minutes are traveling the Ways
6. Shienar (Cut short) traveling the blight, meeting the Green man and battle.. end of book/mid season cliffhanger.

With some cutting that six can become five episodes, and The Great Hunt makes a good second part since the end of that book is Rand declaring himself the Dragon. The Dragon Reborn and Shadow Rising make a good season pair as that one ends with Rand breaking the Aiel and the Tower breaking. After that Fires of Heaven and Lord of Chaos might be with some subplot cutting another season pair and now you've done six books in three seasons.

Seriously greatly cut back some characters (Like Elaine) and it all fits nicely.

[Guardsman Bass]

Working version of the broken link:

http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2015/02 ... ut-of.html

Thanks. I don't know why the link didn't work.

Wheel of Time may never be faithfully adapted. Even for a TV series, it would be fucking long. It would also require a massive budget and piss a lot of people off (there's simply no arguing that the series is sexist).

I think they can make it work, especially if they keep the series focused on a handful of characters: Rand, Matt, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne (Min would be a much reduced minor character). It will especially work better because the show will presumably cut out all the damn braid tugging, plus some of the huge tangential plots in the later books.

In fact, you could cut a shit-ton out of the later books and probably do the entire series in 5-6 seasons.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Crossroads of Twilight would fit in a single episode, easy. It isn't going too far to say that roughly half the book is people reacting to the cleansing of saidin, right? Then there's all the waiting. Which, IIRC, is what the book starts out with. Someone waiting. Sign of things to come, it is.

Lots of stuff could be cut out or truncated at minimum. It would still be a fair bit of stuff to cover, unless you decided to cut out most of the succession crisis with Elayne. I could see people decrying that, though, considering she's one of the only women the series seems to consider important enough for her own major arc.

Honestly, I don't think it would make a great adaption. While there's a ton of fluff, a fair chunk at least does help with world building. Okay, the pages of costume porn and the rhinovirus epidemic going around among the ladies was a bit needless. To adapt it into something that would take a reasonable amount of time to tell in visual format you'd end up cutting things that give an idea of how the world works.


Now, The Eye of the World would be very workable as a self-contained series, or even mini-series depending on what you want to do. Hell, you could even just go with the first three books and call it good. Instead of "lol, it was Ishamael the entire time" thing, Rand actually won for reals.

[The Romulan Republic]

Working version of the broken link:

http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2015/02 ... ut-of.html

Thanks. I don't know why the link didn't work.

Wheel of Time may never be faithfully adapted. Even for a TV series, it would be fucking long. It would also require a massive budget and piss a lot of people off (there's simply no arguing that the series is sexist).

I think they can make it work, especially if they keep the series focused on a handful of characters: Rand, Matt, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne (Min would be a much reduced minor character). It will especially work better because the show will presumably cut out all the damn braid tugging, plus some of the huge tangential plots in the later books.

In fact, you could cut a shit-ton out of the later books and probably do the entire series in 5-6 seasons.

Unless there's a lot of important stuff I'm forgetting (there probably is), the only characters you really need to focus on for the main plot are Rand, Lews Therin, Ishamael, and Moiraine, and maybe Matt, Elayne, Perin, and Egwene.

[Jub]

Unless there's a lot of important stuff I'm forgetting (there probably is), the only characters you really need to focus on for the main plot are Rand, Lews Therin, Ishamael, and Moiraine, and maybe Matt, Elayne, Perin, and Egwene.

I don't think you can cut the other two main leads without making enough changes that Wheel of Time is basically a marketing gimmick and naught else. I'm all for cutting some fluff, but I think some of the cuts being asked for here are a bit much. I'd actually go so far as to say that the three lead characters actually help the series. Think about it, with some reworking of the books you could ensure at any given time you can ensure that one of the three has something cool to do even if the other two are tied up with politics; that and Matt would always be good for a sex scene set in some tavern to keep the GoT feel up.

If I had a say in adapting this I'd see it done as a 12-14 episode a year, 1-hour run time series with a first half season second half season structure. I'd aim to get each book into no more than half a season, and fudge things where needed to make this happen. This should be easy enough to do for the first four books and, if successful, fans should be hooked enough that the less adaptable books will still keep people interested.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, I probably wouldn't cut Matt because he's got some of the best scenes in the series and there needs to be someone for the role of military commander for the Light (although with some rewriting Elayne could fill that role). And if you have Matt, you kind of have to have Perrin I suppose, though he doesn't really appeal to me as a character.

[Jub]

Well, I probably wouldn't cut Matt because he's got some of the best scenes in the series and there needs to be someone for the role of military commander for the Light (although with some rewriting Elayne could fill that role). And if you have Matt, you kind of have to have Perrin I suppose, though he doesn't really appeal to me as a character.

I think Perrin would be better on screen, because we won't need to spend pages with him and his thoughts. Instead he'll just be the big scary looking guy who doesn't talk much and seems deep and loyal. I actually think he might come off better than Matt in the show because if they cut a lot of the inner monologue Matt could wind up seeming more one dimensional than he actually is.

[Elheru Aran]

Wheel of Time has a lot of potential for television. As a movie series... hell no. But as a GoT-esque series? Absolutely.

As has been mentioned, there is a hellacious lot of material that pads the books out (extraneous description of scenery, internal monologues, braid-tugging... the damn braid-tugging, although that would probably be kept as one of Nynaeve's tics) that could easily be pruned near completely.

Mat is fairly important to the plot-- really, all the three male leads are-- but it's a long-term thing. Fortunately, unlike GoT, since the series has been completed there is an end in sight; it all depends on how long they want to string it out. So there is the possibility that, should some actor or other want time away from filming the series, it can be easily enough planned ahead of time as the various characters split up pretty sharply after book 4 or so.

[Guardsman Bass]

They should cut Perrin, although fans would likely howl if he was cut from the TV series. I looked up his story arc again - after leading the Two Rivers to victory in Book Four, there's basically nothing there that couldn't be cut completely, nothing that's so essential to the overall storyline that cutting it would do serious damage to the show as an adaptation.

I disagree with Jub on Mat. Mat could be really entertaining as a character if they cast the right actor for him - the gambling, the "bouncing girls on his lap", the Seanchan connection later on. Hopefully they'll cut out the part where he was raped and coerced into sex for most of a book, but other than that I think he'll be great on camera.

[Elheru Aran]

Ehh... as distasteful as it may be, I viewed that as something of a 'turnabout is fair play' moment, and one that actually helped shape Mat's character given that he had a real sentimental attachment to whatsherface. It was never quite clear whether it was entirely non-consensual, IMO, but it's been a pretty long time since I read through the series and I won't argue it. It's something they could play with for a couple of episodes. But I wouldn't shed any tears if they toned it down or removed that entirely.

Perrin could fade into the background for a while. His plot isn't terribly thick after he rescues the Two Rivers, but strategically he's fairly important as a component in Rand's plans-- he helps bring some various countries into the fight (all that trekking around wasn't for nothing). You could certainly, for a couple of seasons, reduce him to an occasional appearance along the lines of 'oh, what has that Perrin been doing lately?' /cut to Perrin kicking Shaido Aiel ass or signing treaties or trying to beat Berelain off with a frying pan... seriously, that lady was persistent/

Really, there are so many goddamn different plots going on.

Let's see... after Rand gets Callandor and defeats Ishamael, you have that bit where he goes with Mat to the Aiel and is trained by-- who was it, Asmodean? One of the male Forsaken anyway. Perrin starts his side excursion there. Then after they get back to their own land, Mat goes his way with the Band. In the middle of all that, you have Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne, each of whom has their own storyline (which tend to converge every now and then). Add to that an arseload of side plots such as Loial and the Ogier, Lan Mandragoran, Tuon and the Seanchan, High Lady Suroth's treacherous cycle, the Whitecloaks (Geofram Bornhald, Byar, Dain Bornhald, Asunawa and the Questioners, Galad Damodred)...

There is absolutely no shortage of material to adapt. Get bored of Rand talking to Lews Therin in his head? No problem, here's Egwene committing Accepted shenanigans! Need some distraction? Mat getting unnaturally lucky with the dice and has to fight his way out of the bar (again). Move over to Whitecloaks scheming to kill some Aes Sedai, throw in a convenient historic flashback to show that time they actually managed to take Tar Valon and hang the Amyrlin. Show some Forsaken bitching at each other.

It's a fucking soap opera, isn't it?

[Rogue 9]

Working version of the broken link:

http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2015/02 ... ut-of.html

Thanks. I don't know why the link didn't work.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that it's because you included that unnecessary quotation mark in the URL code.

[Guardsman Bass]

Ehh... as distasteful as it may be, I viewed that as something of a 'turnabout is fair play' moment, and one that actually helped shape Mat's character given that he had a real sentimental attachment to whatsherface. It was never quite clear whether it was entirely non-consensual, IMO, but it's been a pretty long time since I read through the series and I won't argue it. It's something they could play with for a couple of episodes. But I wouldn't shed any tears if they toned it down or removed that entirely.

She held a knife to his throat at one point when he was balking at her seduction. Sure, he got a little bit sentimental after a while, but he was still being coerced into sex. I can't imagine them keeping that scene in there and playing it straight.

You could certainly, for a couple of seasons, reduce him to an occasional appearance along the lines of 'oh, what has that Perrin been doing lately?' /cut to Perrin kicking Shaido Aiel ass or signing treaties or trying to beat Berelain off with a frying pan... seriously, that lady was persistent/

One thing that's going to change a lot from the books is that Rand is going to be in focus all of the time - they're not going to have him brood for a long time like he did in the books, especially since he'd likely be one of the highest-paid cast members. If that's the case, then I think you could still eliminate Perrin and fold most of what he did diplomatically and militarily into Rand and Mat's story arcs, or just heavily abbreviate it.

Oh, Berelain. She was so much more interesting than Faile - why couldn't he have hooked up with her instead?

It's a fucking soap opera, isn't it?

Yep. Probably not many flash-backs, though.

Trollocs pose an interesting issue here. The way they're depicted in the books - 10-feet tall, muscular, beast heads - would either require a ton of make-up and prosthetics or CGI. They'd shrink them down to human size and keep the beast masks, so they can have nameless extras play them (and minimize scenes where there are tons of CGI trollocs swarming to save on budget costs).

[The Romulan Republic]

Ehh... as distasteful as it may be, I viewed that as something of a 'turnabout is fair play' moment, and one that actually helped shape Mat's character given that he had a real sentimental attachment to whatsherface. It was never quite clear whether it was entirely non-consensual, IMO, but it's been a pretty long time since I read through the series and I won't argue it. It's something they could play with for a couple of episodes. But I wouldn't shed any tears if they toned it down or removed that entirely.

I don't think we need a show with a message that rape is okay.

Unfortunately, Wheel of Time has a creepy sexual violence thing running through it. Its one of my main issues with the series, and one of the things I'd be inclined to slash ruthlessly if I was adapting it.

Perrin could fade into the background for a while. His plot isn't terribly thick after he rescues the Two Rivers, but strategically he's fairly important as a component in Rand's plans-- he helps bring some various countries into the fight (all that trekking around wasn't for nothing). You could certainly, for a couple of seasons, reduce him to an occasional appearance along the lines of 'oh, what has that Perrin been doing lately?' /cut to Perrin kicking Shaido Aiel ass or signing treaties or trying to beat Berelain off with a frying pan... seriously, that lady was persistent/

Really, there are so many goddamn different plots going on.

Some of which must be cut, though I might not cut Perrin altogether.

Let's see... after Rand gets Callandor and defeats Ishamael, you have that bit where he goes with Mat to the Aiel and is trained by-- who was it, Asmodean? One of the male Forsaken anyway. Perrin starts his side excursion there. Then after they get back to their own land, Mat goes his way with the Band. In the middle of all that, you have Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne, each of whom has their own storyline (which tend to converge every now and then). Add to that an arseload of side plots such as Loial and the Ogier, Lan Mandragoran, Tuon and the Seanchan, High Lady Suroth's treacherous cycle, the Whitecloaks (Geofram Bornhald, Byar, Dain Bornhald, Asunawa and the Questioners, Galad Damodred)...

There is absolutely no shortage of material to adapt. Get bored of Rand talking to Lews Therin in his head? No problem, here's Egwene committing Accepted shenanigans! Need some distraction? Mat getting unnaturally lucky with the dice and has to fight his way out of the bar (again). Move over to Whitecloaks scheming to kill some Aes Sedai, throw in a convenient historic flashback to show that time they actually managed to take Tar Valon and hang the Amyrlin. Show some Forsaken bitching at each other.

It's a fucking soap opera, isn't it?

When did the Whitecloaks take Tar Valon? I don't remember that. Since the Trollocs and that emperor who conquered a big chunk of the world couldn't pull it off, I'm skeptical that the Whitecloaks could, considering they're a smaller force that's pretty much all cavalry and don't strike me as paragons of military skill.

Edit: Besides, wouldn't the Whitecloaks have razed it while they had the chance?

[The Romulan Republic]

The Whitecloaks are something I'd be inclined to keep in some form, incidentally. The idea of a faction committed to fighting for the Light that also hates Aes Sedai/channellers is interesting, as is the idea that this faction that is supposedly on the good side has become so zealous and corrupt that its now a threat to ordinary people as well. Its an interesting twist and layer to the usual Light vs Dark scenario.

And I guess that's a reason to keep Perrin, because his story is very closely intertwined with the Whitecloaks.

[Elheru Aran]

Ehh... as distasteful as it may be, I viewed that as something of a 'turnabout is fair play' moment, and one that actually helped shape Mat's character given that he had a real sentimental attachment to whatsherface. It was never quite clear whether it was entirely non-consensual, IMO, but it's been a pretty long time since I read through the series and I won't argue it. It's something they could play with for a couple of episodes. But I wouldn't shed any tears if they toned it down or removed that entirely.

She held a knife to his throat at one point when he was balking at her seduction. Sure, he got a little bit sentimental after a while, but he was still being coerced into sex. I can't imagine them keeping that scene in there and playing it straight.

I don't know that she would have actually killed him... but then, he didn't know, either. I can see them incorporating it as a throwaway line ("you could've refused!" "she held a knife to my neck!") but putting it onscreen might make for a bit of furor. Thinking along the lines of Jaime Lannister taking his own sister in the series versus the book. Like I said, I won't argue it and if they cut it, it's not a big deal.

You could certainly, for a couple of seasons, reduce him to an occasional appearance along the lines of 'oh, what has that Perrin been doing lately?' /cut to Perrin kicking Shaido Aiel ass or signing treaties or trying to beat Berelain off with a frying pan... seriously, that lady was persistent/

One thing that's going to change a lot from the books is that Rand is going to be in focus all of the time - they're not going to have him brood for a long time like he did in the books, especially since he'd likely be one of the highest-paid cast members. If that's the case, then I think you could still eliminate Perrin and fold most of what he did diplomatically and militarily into Rand and Mat's story arcs, or just heavily abbreviate it.

Oh, Berelain. She was so much more interesting than Faile - why couldn't he have hooked up with her instead?

No comment on Berelain, she mostly just annoyed me... along with something like 80% of the other women in the story... but you seem awfully certain that they would focus upon Rand for the primary viewpoint character rather than going with multiple viewpoints like Game of Thrones has since Sean Bean got topped (and even in the first season, they had plenty of alternative viewpoints during the various episodes). Certainly he's the primary mover of the storyline, but I would think it might work better to present an overall picture of how the plot is leading the world towards the ultimate climax of the series.

Seriously, the more I think about it, this show is Days of Our Lives making an incestuous child of Game of Thrones. Rand could appear in every episode, sure, but some episodes he's just standing on a balcony waving at people or yelling at Cadsuane or whatever while the main action is taken care of by other characters.

Say you have an episode or two just after Egwene and the rebel Aes Sedai take the Tower back. It's mostly about the Aes Sedai getting back on their feet and dusting themselves off and sorting things out. Rand shows up for five minutes when he does his whole 'submit to the Dragon or else' visit. Cut to Mat scheming to enter the Tower of Ghenjej, and so forth.

Perrin isn't a *major* character for most of the later half of the series... but you can't just ignore him, either. If he vanishes after book 4 and then shows up at the end with a big beard and a hammer, that'll throw people off in a big way. Glimpses of him, the occasional feature episode, a battle or two will help along the way.

[quote
Trollocs pose an interesting issue here. The way they're depicted in the books - 10-feet tall, muscular, beast heads - would either require a ton of make-up and prosthetics or CGI. They'd shrink them down to human size and keep the beast masks, so they can have nameless extras play them (and minimize scenes where there are tons of CGI trollocs swarming to save on budget costs).[/quote]

That is certainly an issue. They could use some heavy-duty prosthetics for special characters that build up their height and all. Otherwise it's just a casting call for half of the third string of the NBA. I'm thinking perspective tricks might help as well. They're basically free and just need some set-up and extras. I'd be afraid of them Sci-Fi Channeling it with the CGI...

What would be more difficult on an episode-by-episode basis is depicting channeling in a believable way. Externally, it's like the Force-- stuff just happens, that can be set up with careful special effects. But you'd want plenty of sequences, especially in the early part of the show, where people are visualizing the Power moving in order to channel it. And later on you have some really funky stuff like gateways and Travelling.

At least the rest of the series wouldn't require more special effects than the occasional explosive, period clothing, appropriate landscape and some mud...

RR: The Whitecloaks taking Tar Valon was one of their historic victories. There's a mural of it in their headquarters. It's mentioned in the background as one of the books goes on. I actually may be wrong and they may not have taken Tar Valon, but they did definitely kill an Amyrlin once. They're not the greatest military unit in the world, but they're competent enough, heavily armed, and they do actually have some decent leadership. So they're pretty helpful at the end there.

[The Romulan Republic]

I can buy them assassinating an Amyrlin, and I seem to recall that they did that. But I can't buy them actually taking Tar Valon. They might have the leadership to do it if their corruption and fanaticism doesn't get in the way of competence (as I recall their leader at the start of the series was considered one of the "Great Captains"), but they do not have the numbers. In terms of military strength, Tar Valon is basically Minas Tirith (only stronger) if it was garrisoned by an army of Galadriel and Aragorn clones.

[Elheru Aran]

They did attack Tar Valon a few times, it mentions them besieging the city, but the only one to actually take it was Artur Hawkwing, and he was the Emperor of the entire continent (with an anti-Aes Sedai streak, thanks to Ishamael). The Whitecloaks' numbers have fluctated over time. Bear in mind that we have something like 4-5,000 years of history to contend with here since the Breaking, I think...