Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

[Crazedwraith]

The thing I think Spekio has a point on (well one of the things. I see a lot of what he's talking about aside the unlike-able characters. It just doesn't bother me because I see Dresden Files as light fun than can be serious when it wants too. Like a well done action movie) is the rules of magic only affecting mortals.

There's two parts to it. There's that the rules only affect mortals and then there's the 'intent matters' clause. That to make magic work you have the believe in it and as harry often says 'that the magic should happen' which why Dark magic is outlawed. That dark magic once used twists your mind so use it more and more and become more and more evil. (which seems to be a on-steriods version of crime in real life)

But combining this: what happens when you say burn someone to ashes that you genuinely thought and believed to be say a vampire and turns out to be a regular human. That's certainly breaking the first law, but does actual count as use of dark magic that twist you?

The latest book, Cold Days sort of touches on this: Spoiler

Harry actually breaks the first law. Similarly to how I describes. He zaps a member of the wild hunt, a spectral hound, with a blast of magic so hard it breaks neck of the mortal that dog 'actually' was and Harry didn't realise.

I hope Skin Game is actually going to pick up this point.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The 'no killing with magic' only applies to humans. Animals and beings of the nevernever are not covered by that protection.

[Crazedwraith]

The 'no killing with magic' only applies to humans. Animals and beings of the nevernever are not covered by that protection.

...Yes. I know. That's what My post is about. What happens when you kill something you believe is non-human such as vampire and turns out it isn't? That's breaking the letter of the first law. But arguable not the spirit. Since the reason for the law is killing humans with magic is that that's dark magic and twists your mind. If you had no intent to kill a mortal though then you should be safe from the effects Dark magic will have on you.
Spoiler

Check pages 399- 400 of Cold Days. Harry blasts a member of the wild hunt. Turns out to be a human in disguise. That's the first law broken.

If that is what you're talking about.

[Scrib]

Perhaps knowing you killed a human washes back on you.Actions can have effects on your personality you didn't mean. Or running around blowing up buildings or creating situations where humans will almost certainly die counts? It would probably count to the WC since that is an incredibly easy loophole to abuse in theory (though in practice? meh)

[Ralin]

I suspect that the Laws of Magic began as more of a "Don't do this shit without a very good reason because it is extremely dangerous and unhealthy" set of guidelines and morphed into hardcore sacred and rigid rules later on.

I also suspect that if the White Council had the power to stop vampires and faeries and what not from using magic to twist minds and kill people they would regardless of the fact that they aren't mortals. But they don't, so they accept it.
Spoiler

Also Harry has his own special exemption from the Laws of Magic now. It's called "Fuck you, I'm the Winter Knight." Though that doesn't change the fact that the White Council's teachings on the responsible use of magic are essentially Harry's religion.

Also if I remember right there's some room for interpretation of the 'When I knocked him off a building with a conjured gust of wind it wasn't my magic that killed him, it was the ground" variety, but all the sources we have seem to agree that breaking the Laws of Magic does legit leave a mark on someone who does it. Given how concerned and haunted Harry was about having possibly incinerated some living mortals at the end of Grave Peril I expect that intent doesn't shield you from the consequences when you straight up direct kill someone with magic.

[Crazedwraith]

I suspect that the Laws of Magic began as more of a "Don't do this shit without a very good reason because it is extremely dangerous and unhealthy" set of guidelines and morphed into hardcore sacred and rigid rules later on.

That's probably right. interesting the order of them as well. Like the order they found out it was a bad idea

Spoiler

Also Harry has his own special exemption from the Laws of Magic now. It's called "Fuck you, I'm the Winter Knight." Though that doesn't change the fact that the White Council's teachings on the responsible use of magic are essentially Harry's religion.

Spoiler

As jokingly as you put that. It does work on a couple of levels. The White Council can't go after him without offending the Winter Court and they presumably still want to use winter's ways.

But of course, Harry is part of the Winter Court and the guy had associated himself with the faerie kingdoms. So its possibly it was magically 'legal' for Harry to kill him. That is the function of the winter knight after all.

I was suggesting the White council would go after him but I think its an issue that should bother Harry. Like shooting Corpsetaker did.

Also if I remember right there's some room for interpretation of the 'When I knocked him off a building with a conjured gust of wind it wasn't my magic that killed him, it was the ground" variety, but all the sources we have seem to agree that breaking the Laws of Magic does legit leave a mark on someone who does it. Given how concerned and haunted Harry was about having possibly incinerated some living mortals at the end of Grave Peril I expect that intent doesn't shield you from the consequences when you straight up direct kill someone with magic.

I can't remember that loop hole being stated bt you could be right. There's also the self-defense clause which you think would come up more.

I don't re-read Grave Peril very often. Were there actually magic consequences for what he did there? Or was it just Harry was very guilty because he's a good guy with a moral centre that doesn't like killing? Like when he shot Corpsetaker in the head.

[Gaidin]

I think the only Law where there's literally been a loophole stated is the First because that's the one where your mind can really up and say "self-defense...fair game" and come clean. They'll let you make a case for yourself there. The other Laws really do involve Magic where your mind has to invest in something that the Council has experienced the vast vast majority of the time as Black Magic, which corrupts, and they've said nope, you're going to be about a foot shorter at the end of the day once we find you.

[LadyTevar]

I will point out there is a HUGE reason why the Fae Courts are in Detroit. You find out in "Small Favors" why Chicago is so important.

[Ahriman238]

From what Ebenenzer said, the White Council had a hard time establishing itself, and much of that may have happened in his lifetime. He certainly feels there was a point in the none-too-distant past where dissent in any form would be harshly punished.

That said there is a certain conceptual elegance to the concept of the Blackstaff. They acknowledged that the rules could be easily used against them, and came up with a counter by giving one person immunity to the rules. And if you're going to set one man above the law who better than someone who deeply, fervently believes in the laws and their necessity, as seen by his teachings to Harry, and will not set them aside lightly? And is perfectly willing to tell the Council where to shove it if he doesn't feel this specific case is worthy of a killing.

I'd like to think, anyways, that it was by design that Ebenezer McCoy, the man least likely to abuse the position, is the one who got it.

[Ralin]

I don't re-read Grave Peril very often. Were there actually magic consequences for what he did there? Or was it just Harry was very guilty because he's a good guy with a moral centre that doesn't like killing? Like when he shot Corpsetaker in the head.

Dunno. Mostly the latter, but he was very specifically concerned about the possibility of having killed mortals with magic. And the loa in Death Masks smells black magic on him, though most of that probably comes from Justin DuMorne (which presumably means Harry really did kill him, by the way). But given how we're constantly told that black magic is addictive and twists the user's mind I'm leaning against the intent thing.

Bear in mind that the 1st Law isn't a moral thing, it's a mystical "A Jedi would never use the Force to directly murder him, even though he's perfectly okay with chopping them up with his laser sword" thing. It's bad because it's horrible and blasphemous to twist the forces of life itself into an instrument of murder. Seems to me that even if you didn't mean to kill someone the resulting corruption would be the same. Maybe less extreme if it's an accident, but still.

That's probably right. interesting the order of them as well. Like the order they found out it was a bad idea

Could just be the order of relevance on a day to day basis. Anyone with the ability to throw around magic fire is going to be tempted to burn someone they don't like alive at some point. Not a lot of people are going to be inclined to seek knowledge from beyond the Outer Gates.

Though I suppose if that was true the prohibition against mind-reading/control would come before the one about changing the form of another. Personally I don't think the order is particularly significant.

[White Haven]

The other advantage to focusing your 'we break the rules if we REALLY need to' into a position like the Blackstaff is that, given that a number of the Laws of Magic are based around avoiding potential sources of corruption, you're centralizing that in a single person that the entire rest of the Senior Council can watch like a hawk. As an added bonus, you also minimize who needs to know that there's something to be watched for at all since they only have one person to monitor with that level of scrutiny. It strikes me as a fairly decent kitbash to a problem that evolved in once the rules were codified and people started to try to use them against the Council; rather than say 'well...fuck, now we need to start closing loopholes and make all of these Laws into tomes of legalese,' people who fuck with edge cases and try to operate in t heir shadows just...vanish. Ugly, nasty, but very much in keeping with a early-days White Council.

[Ralin]

I'm actually kinda curious why they specifically need a Blackstaff to begin with. A wetworks/troubleshooter, sure, but the Wardens manage to be very effective and very lethal despite the fact that they would reflexively decapitate themselves if they caught themselves even thinking about using black magic. Killing supernatural creatures with magic isn't a violation of the Laws of Magic and if the Council needs mortals dead humanity has provided them with abundant ways of going about making that happen. So I'm guessing that it's not just a "Well sometimes we need to drop a satellite on someone even if innocent bystanders get killed in the process" sort of thing.
Spoiler

And dealing with time travel and Outer Gates business is specifically under the Gatekeeper's purview, which leaves us with the other five Laws

Spoiler

I also still wonder who besides the Senior Council knew about the Blackstaff position. Luccio, presumably? Hard to imagine Morgan accepting something like that. And Luccio was the one who taught Morgan to be that way.

But on the other hand, not telling their highest ranking Wardens runs the risk of them finding out on their own. With predictably violent results.

[Gaidin]

Spoiler

And dealing with time travel and Outer Gates business is specifically under the Gatekeeper's purview, which leaves us with the other five Laws

Spoiler

I also still wonder who besides the Senior Council knew about the Blackstaff position. Luccio, presumably? Hard to imagine Morgan accepting something like that. And Luccio was the one who taught Morgan to be that way.

But on the other hand, not telling their highest ranking Wardens runs the risk of them finding out on their own. With predictably violent results.

Spoiler

The Gatekeeper doesn't get to summon demons from beyond the outer gates if deemed necessary. The Wardens don't get to kill with magic or otherwise break the laws of magic if deemed necessary. They're not wetworks agents when needed. They're law enforcement. Though a better word for the Gatekeeper after Cold Days revelations is actually diplomat and war officer.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Or because he just wants to keep his face from being seen on general principles due to the fact that he's in a shadowy super-secret society dedicated to destroying the White Council and summoning Outsiders or whatever the hell it is they want to do?

That hardly marks him out as unique, yet Cowl is the only character whose identity has been consistently concealed, and concealed in a way which draws attention to the fact that it is being concealed.

The only reason an author conceals something from the reader in this way is so that he can later reveal it, and revealing something that the audience has no reason to care about the revelation of is pointless.

It would be somewhat amusing if it turns out to be the Blackstaff or Merlin.
(Red herrings and betrayal by a mentor in the leu of TvTropes and all that). Heck, Harry even mentions that "Even McCoy had barely hit him as hard as that" regarding Cowl.

[Vendetta]

I'm actually kinda curious why they specifically need a Blackstaff to begin with. A wetworks/troubleshooter, sure, but the Wardens manage to be very effective and very lethal despite the fact that they would reflexively decapitate themselves if they caught themselves even thinking about using black magic. Killing supernatural creatures with magic isn't a violation of the Laws of Magic and if the Council needs mortals dead humanity has provided them with abundant ways of going about making that happen. So I'm guessing that it's not just a "Well sometimes we need to drop a satellite on someone even if innocent bystanders get killed in the process" sort of thing.

Spoiler

The Blackstaff is an artifact as well as a position. It shields the user from some of the consequences of killing with magic (whilst exerting consequences of its own), hence why there's a specific person chosen to carry and use it. Speculation is that it belonged to Mother Winter.

[Alkaloid]

I'm baffled Spekio? What deference to the Christian God? I'd say Harrys an atheist but he's entirely sure gods exist, but he doesn't worship them and outright states that he has no idea what created the universe but all creations myths are obviouusly not true. He steps cautiously around his agents because he is powerful as all get out and they are scary as fuck, but he's not Christian any more than he's wiccan, buddhist or a druid.

[Ralin]

Spoiler

The Blackstaff is an artifact as well as a position. It shields the user from some of the consequences of killing with magic (whilst exerting consequences of its own), hence why there's a specific person chosen to carry and use it. Speculation is that it belonged to Mother Winter.

Butcher has nixed that last part in interviews.

[Gaidin]

I'm baffled Spekio? What deference to the Christian God? I'd say Harrys an atheist but he's entirely sure gods exist, but he doesn't worship them and outright states that he has no idea what created the universe but all creations myths are obviouusly not true. He steps cautiously around his agents because he is powerful as all get out and they are scary as fuck, but he's not Christian any more than he's wiccan, buddhist or a druid.

Spoiler

Harry's not an atheist so much as he think's the god's power revolves around the level of worship they get. To wit, the powerhouse Odin might have been much more powerful in Norse times. I'm not totally clear on his position of what the Christian god is as an entity from memory, but he thinks it's there, especially with how he's seen Michael be able to handle himself with and without the Sword. We might not be able to call him an atheist in the pure sense, but we might be able to call him one in the sense of 'I don't follow any of the gods'. Harry's method is essentially summed up as 'we stay out of each other's way'. He's got the endorsement of an archangel of god that can be said to be fairly utilitarian in that sense and he's actually had a debate with the archangel on this in a short story to a limited extent I believe. The archangel's limited response can be summed up as 'I don't care what you believe or who you follow, you do what's right, that's enough for me'.

Note: In spoilers because, not sure if Odin's nature as 'yes he's there' is fair game to just up and reveal yet.

[Alkaloid]

Yeah man, I get that, it's why I'm confused. Harry is no more deferential to the white god (his term for what is more or less YHWE) than any other being of similar power, so how is this being deferential to the catholic god?

[Gaidin]

He's only deferential in the sense that he doesn't seek to piss off any given god unless that god is doing something he wants to stop. To him it's kind of like playing with a very big atomic bomb. You step carefully and don't touch unless you have a very good reason not to. In that sense I think Spekio sort of got that analysis wrong.

[Vendetta]

I think he's more talking about the fact that the White God exists and is presumably very powerful (given that he has servants that are as beefy as the beefiest entities thus far encountered).

Which, y'know, would be strange if he didn't since every other mythological being including the kitchen sink exists.

[Gaidin]

Given most mythology I'm aware of has that the White God working through presumably very powerful servants like Uriel I think Butcher is handling that one spot on, but that one's me. If it ever gets bad enough that the White God reaches through and bitch smacks someone himself we be in big trouble.

Though, that might happen if we ever go to a place like Eden. I wonder if Eden exists in the Nevernever. Hmmm...

[SAMAS]

Spoiler

Not to mention his deliberate fucking up of the peace in order to save his girlfriend. A significant portion of his Order died because Harry is a fucking moron, you think that slides? We're literally talking about the difference between some sort of autonomous human civilization and a planet full of chattel. For one reporter. (And no, the issues that later come to light are no excuse because Harry didn't know of them)

And him being petty is not at all a meaningful critique in the first place.

Spoiler

He didn't trigger the war to save Susan (IIRC, she was standing right next to him at the time). He did it to save Michael's holy sword Amoracchius,

Spoiler

a.k.a. Exclalibur,

Spoiler

which the Red Court was about to destroy by using it to kill an innocent. It was literally a choice between starting a war and both letting an innocent girl die while losing one of the most potent forces of Good in the world.

[Scrib]

Spoiler

Not to mention his deliberate fucking up of the peace in order to save his girlfriend. A significant portion of his Order died because Harry is a fucking moron, you think that slides? We're literally talking about the difference between some sort of autonomous human civilization and a planet full of chattel. For one reporter. (And no, the issues that later come to light are no excuse because Harry didn't know of them)

And him being petty is not at all a meaningful critique in the first place.

Spoiler

He didn't trigger the war to save Susan (IIRC, she was standing right next to him at the time). He did it to save Michael's holy sword Amoracchius,

Spoiler

a.k.a. Exclalibur,

Spoiler

which the Red Court was about to destroy by using it to kill an innocent. It was literally a choice between starting a war and both letting an innocent girl die while losing one of the most potent forces of Good in the world.

Uh...maybe the timeline is messed up? Spoiler

Because,as I recall, Bianca offered him an out in exchange for Susan and Susan alone and he tried to burn the place down.

Do you mean that he attacked Bianca earlier when she was trying to destroy the sword thereby causing a war even though she later offered him a truce which he then rejected?

[Ralin]

Spoiler

You're kidding yourself if you think that protecting Amoracchius was higher on Dresden's priority list than stopping Susan from being turned into a vampire. He even outright says he started the war to save his girlfriend at various points!