Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

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Scrib
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

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Spekio wrote:
Terralthra wrote:
Spekio wrote:I had to download a pdf for this.
Now imagine that instead of "Ivy" we got "Lin" because surely Harry couldn't call The Merlin Merlin. I call shenanigans.
Because The Merlin has a name, Arthur Langtry. A-duh.

The Archive never really had an identity all her own, since she became the archive as an infant and her mother killed herself. Harry never insults her or disrespects her knowledge, he simply thinks in addition to being a font of all human knowledge, she deserves to be a human, too.
Not sure if you are serious. She just called herself the archive - the incredibly powerful entity whom he just met - yet not only our protagonist is patronizing towards her, she just accepts. This is bad. There is no way she - the sum of all human knowledge - needed to be told or freed or even enabled by a supposedly small time wizard.

She is independent enough to hire a supernatural hitman and to ferry herself across the globe, kill highly powerfull vampires but needed a man whom she met for all of 10 minutes to give her an identity?
What she needed was for someone to be fine with her having a separate identity. Like you said: she hired Kincaid: he is not in a position to do that as an underling and he doesn't care. She kills vampires: they also see her as The Archive. Harry is just the sort of heedless asshole that meets an incredibly powerful being and wants to engage with it as a kid for just a moment. Who else would do that?

And yes, it is highly patronizing and Dresden did it because she's a girl. We might also draw some conclusions about what Butcher thinks is heartwarming but this seems like a relatively minor case tbh.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Spekio »

Crazedwraith wrote:I'm still not sure what you're getting at with the Ivy thing.

Now, to me Mary Sue is a nebulous and ill defined term. Especially when applied here since It is, or was originally, a fanfic term.

I'd agree that Harry has a lot of traits in common with the sort of Mary Sue you describe though. You even missed a few: Harry's amazing power for one so young. Harry's continual upgrades in power over the course of the series. Harry's super special pet dog and... Spoiler
his special destiny that gives him power over outsiders
But traits alone don't really make a Mary Sue. The writing of, and context of the traits do. To me, these traits (aside from that spoilered one, that dissappoints me) are given a lot of context, a lot of drawbacks and actually cost Harry an awful lot, so they keep him on the likeable side of Mary Sue. But then we come fully back to 'just a subjective opinion' thing.
About Ivy - see above.

Plus the fact that his long lost brother is the son of the leader of the white court of vampires? (Oh yeah, guess where high ranking members of a court of vampires also reside?) That he touches a corrupting artefact and ends empowered and with a new ally for no drawback at all? That a war he started hampered him significant way at all? That the serious damage he suffered in his hand harms him not at all and is healing because he is a wizard?

EDIT: Oh yeah, his vaguely defined dark-side from killing that, as I pointed out before, makes no sense.

And frankly, what is the deal with his fairy godmother? I forgot, and she seemingly was replaced with the Winter queen.
Scrib wrote:What she needed was for someone to be fine with her having a separate identity. Like you said: she hired Kincaid: he is not in a position to do that as an underling and he doesn't care. She kills vampires: they also see her as The Archive. Harry is just the sort of heedless asshole that meets an incredibly powerful being and wants to engage with it as a kid for just a moment. Who else would do that?

And yes, it is highly patronizing and Dresden did it because she's a girl. We might also draw some conclusions about what Butcher thinks is heartwarming but this seems like a relatively minor case tbh.
She has all of the human knowledge at her fingertips. Let that sink in for a minute. Then tell me why did she need "....was for someone to be fine with her having a separate identity". No one was telling her to do otherwise, she had no reason to think she shouldn't or couldn't, and even worse, she knew her mother and knew she was someone else before she received the construct.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

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Because the Archive was a huge part of her personality and it's how everyone treated her? It's easier to just go with that. It's a matter of frames of reference. She can do what she wants but everyone treats her like The Archive. Harry is one of the few that doesn't.

Also: what did it do in the end? It gave her a distinct name and endeared Harry to her. Not much else.

But honestly, I'm willing to concede this. It is a bit of sappy storytelling but w/e.

As for your Mary Sue thing: you're conflating creator provincialism-to make the story more interesting while not contradicting certain mechanics and/or genre tropes- with Mary Sue-ism. I can't accept that. It's a bit like making the same accusation because all the crazy shit in Scifi recently happens in America.

What good came of Thomas being his brother? Doesn't it mean that his mom was used by a White Court vampire and eventually lost to it and his brother is a constant problem and liability? See, if he was a Mary Sue he'd secretly be the son of some unique dragon (while also having Ice magic) while his brother was some sort of phoenix creature with all the benefits from that you can imagine. Nothing particularly untoward comes from this.

Hell, we don't need to imagine: there's a Harry Potter Dresden crossover that has Harry wielding the power of a Potterverse Wizard, a Denarian AND one of the three Swords from God. That right there is a a perfect summary of a Mary Sue! The author saves it by making the universe work but goddamn did he tease it.

Also:wizards having better healing is a thing for all wizards.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

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Scrib wrote:Because the Archive was a huge part of her personality and it's how everyone treated her? It's easier to just go with that. It's a matter of frames of reference. She can do what she wants but everyone treats her like The Archive. Harry is one of the few that doesn't.

Also: what did it do in the end? It gave her a distinct name and endeared Harry to her. Not much else.

But honestly, I'm willing to concede this. It is a bit of sappy storytelling but w/e.
Her reference has no frame....

As for your Mary Sue thing: you're conflating creator provincialism-to make the story more interesting while not contradicting certain mechanics and/or genre tropes- with Mary Sue-ism. I can't accept that. It's a bit like making the same accusation because all the crazy shit in Scifi recently happens in America.

What good came of Thomas being his brother? Doesn't it mean that his mom was used by a White Court vampire and eventually lost to it and his brother is a constant problem and liability? See, if he was a Mary Sue he'd secretly be the son of some unique dragon (while also having Ice magic) while his brother was some sort of phoenix creature with all the benefits from that you can imagine. Nothing particularly untoward comes from this.

Hell, we don't need to imagine: there's a Harry Potter Dresden crossover that has Harry wielding the power of a Potterverse Wizard, a Denarian AND one of the three Swords from God. That right there is a a perfect summary of a Mary Sue! The author saves it by making the universe work but goddamn did he tease it.

Also:wizards having better healing is a thing for all wizards.
Okay, so that is one - Let's agree Thomas is not a sueish trait. I'll conceed that. That leaves the rest.

His burnt hand was a good thing. I like when my characters hare injuries and have to deal with the repercussions. This token flaw did not inconvenienced Harry, not even a bit. And we learn right after, same book if I'm not mistaken, that it will heal. Harry, having studied under a powerful member of the White council did not know that?

But let's get back to my conflation of creator provincialism with Mary Sue-ism. This universe of cardboad cut-outs revolve arround Harry, and he does at he pleases with them because he is the protagonist. Things only happen because of him, and only close enough so he can participate. If the universe worked (as it apparently does in the aforementioned HP fanfic), it would be okay - it does not, since our author keeps patching the rules toward our protagonist (i.e. burnt hand). Our hero only does suceed because he is the protagonist, and if not by luck, by sheer specialness.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Ralin »

Spekio wrote:
He comes, personally, all the way to where our protagonist lives, to fuck with his head. I would have no problem if he sent wardens to do that, but he took time of his supposedly important business to be a petty cunt. It makes the world small, it made the Merlin another unimportant player to main character.

Seriously: It's like a president coming out and taking a shit in a reckless soldier's lawn and letting said soldier go unmolested. This is mary sue self insert bad.
The wizard community is a lot smaller than the US Army. Harry is in the top percentile of that community in terms natural magical power. And the Merlin's goal was a diplomatic solution, which he knew would only be feasible if he could offer up the guy who started the war in the first place as a sacrificial lamb.

And like the president the Merlin is not an absolute ruler who can order Harry killed on his own say-so without serious consequences.
It was never made clear wheter the laws of magic were natural laws or laws of the white council. Harry talks about how magic come from life and how it is unthinkable to kill with it, then we learn that it iss okay to break the first law in self-defense, but not in the defense of others? How does that work? If it has such serious consequences that every instance of murder is a capital punishment, how come self-defense is an exception? Is it not a gateway to the same vice?

It seems porly thought out, all that talk about how magic is a tool of and for life, yet we hid it and don't stop killers with it.
Probably because they know better than to expect their people to follow a law that prevents them from defending themselves if their lives are in danger?

And it’s not just a matter of self-defense, it specifically applies to defending oneself against the black arts, i.e., warlocks and the like. Stands to reason that if a warlock can use magic to kill wizards with impunity but wizards are afraid to respond in kind because they know their own people will execute them afterward that the wizards are going to come out holding the short straw in any conflict with rival groups of practitioners. The White Council has a long and presumably very violent history and I have zero doubt they’ve had to deal with other groups of wizards who rejected their authority before.
Spoiler
I still think there’s something significant to the way Ebenezar reacted when he first heard Harry use the name “Black Council”
(Also, does anyone thinks this withe god is an asshole for giving the magical sword to a developed nation suburban dad instead of the people on vampire island?)
Not really. We know the Knights travel, and it’s not like there aren’t supernatural evils in America that need to be beaten down before they grow too big. Plus one of the previous Knights was some dude called “the Egyptian,” and besides Michael wasn’t a suburban dad when he started the job.

And being a successful business owner in America does give Michael the funds to be mobile as needed. I’d have to check, but I’m guessing that an American passport gets you visa-free entry to more countries than a Russian or Japanese passport.

He’s using his privilege to help people less fortunate!

I was actually wondering just the other day what Sanya and Shiro did for a living.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

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Spekio wrote:
Scrib wrote:Because the Archive was a huge part of her personality and it's how everyone treated her? It's easier to just go with that. It's a matter of frames of reference. She can do what she wants but everyone treats her like The Archive. Harry is one of the few that doesn't.

Also: what did it do in the end? It gave her a distinct name and endeared Harry to her. Not much else.

But honestly, I'm willing to concede this. It is a bit of sappy storytelling but w/e.
Her reference has no frame....
Yes, it does require us to buy into the conceit that people can intellectually know something yet act in a manner that fits their circumstances. A bit problematic but not outlandish to me, but YMMV.
Okay, so that is one - Let's agree Thomas is not a sueish trait. I'll conceed that. That leaves the rest.

His burnt hand was a good thing. I like when my characters hare injuries and have to deal with the repercussions. This token flaw did not inconvenienced Harry, not even a bit. And we learn right after, same book if I'm not mistaken, that it will heal. Harry, having studied under a powerful member of the White council did not know that?
Wasn't Harry traumatised by the experience?
But let's get back to my conflation of creator provincialism with Mary Sue-ism. This universe of cardboad cut-outs revolve arround Harry, and he does at he pleases with them because he is the protagonist. Things only happen because of him, and only close enough so he can participate. If the universe worked (as it apparently does in the aforementioned HP fanfic), it would be okay - it does not, since our author keeps patching the rules toward our protagonist (i.e. burnt hand). Our hero only does suceed because he is the protagonist, and if not by luck, by sheer specialness.
You're going to need to give some examples. Because "things happen close to him" was a sure thing in the early books and now it's more "things happen close to him or close to the NeverNever" but what you're saying goes far beyond that. I don't see how things happen because of him and him alone to be honest. A ton of shit happens that he didn't cause, he's often just reacting.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Ahriman238 »

I do use the term Mary Sue seriously, as an obvious author avatar who has no, or token, flaws, is treated as the special thing ever the world revolves around, excels in all things, never has to suffer the logical consequences of their actions or suffer at all, really, and is nearly universally loved, except by villains. Harry Dresden... is none of these.

Harry's character flaws are legion, he'd be quite an unlikable character if he didn't consistently try and do the right thing. He panics during a fight at least once a book, he's absurdly insensitive about some things, he has a temper problem that isolates him from his friends. For all that Harry has taken a pivotal role in world-shaking events, starting a war, securing passage through Faerie, killing the Summer Lady and a bunch of would-be gods, and countless more badass stunts, he remains a very little fish in a big pond. His greatest victories always came from crazy preparedness or insane outside-the-box thinking. He's as vulnerable to an unexpected half-brick in a sock as any other man, and people like Nicodemus, the Merlin or Mab could crush him like a bug in a stand up fight.

Harry's magical skills are quite limited compared to his peers in the White Council, he says himself that he's good mostly at finding stuff and fighting, and even there he needs magical devices more experienced wizards would eschew. Harry started a war between vampires and wizards over a matter of love and principle, and the Council was perfectly happy to disavow him and throw him to the wolves to stop it, plus he had to endure dozens of attempts on his life, actually fight in said war, and mentor young Wardens only to see them be eaten by ghouls. He saves his namesake from the coin, but has to put up with Lash in his head for years and years afterwards. I can't say he gets a free ride.

As for being universally loved, or at least respected? The Chicago police treat him as a bad joke, the White Council isn't much better. The only people who respect Harry are his small circle of close friends and family.




Now, the battle at the train station was intense, though the sprinklers idea occurred to me a bit before Harry caught on. And Tiny Goat Gruff has an even bigger brother? Yikes. And all this time, kidnapping Marcone, it was all a ploy to get Ivy? Don't get me wrong, she's a fine prize particularly if they can turn her with a coin, but she's probably the one person with more experience and knowledge of magic than them. How do they plan to contain her? Not to mention even capture will be a dicey prospect with Harry, Luccio, and Kincaid on the scene.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

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Ralin wrote: The wizard community is a lot smaller than the US Army. Harry is in the top percentile of that community in terms natural magical power. And the Merlin's goal was a diplomatic solution, which he knew would only be feasible if he could offer up the guy who started the war in the first place as a sacrificial lamb.

And like the president the Merlin is not an absolute ruler who can order Harry killed on his own say-so without serious consequences.
Why is he not doing that? What he did is not at all a realistic approach. Harry's standing in the council was "precarious", and the deaths he caused would be more than enough to drum support for handing him over - even if he did the right thing. Merlin's actions were the equivalent of a temper tantrum - seriously... exchange the reckless soldier for snowden in my revious analogy.

"Say, why wasn't Merlin in the monastery when the Red Court attacked? Oh, giving that boy Dresden a lesson by executing a random kid in front of him".

Really? Middle of a war and he decides to join people for a little get togheter?
Probably because they know better than to expect their people to follow a law that prevents them from defending themselves if their lives are in danger?

And it’s not just a matter of self-defense, it specifically applies to defending oneself against the black arts, i.e., warlocks and the like. Stands to reason that if a warlock can use magic to kill wizards with impunity but wizards are afraid to respond in kind because they know their own people will execute them afterward that the wizards are going to come out holding the short straw in any conflict with rival groups of practitioners. The White Council has a long and presumably very violent history and I have zero doubt they’ve had to deal with other groups of wizards who rejected their authority before.
Spoiler
I still think there’s something significant to the way Ebenezar reacted when he first heard Harry use the name “Black Council”
Okay, so, we are to assume that if a warlock blasted into some house, started killing his kids with magic but did not attemp to harm the wizard himself at all he would be barred from using magic to stop said warlock? Good luck enforcing that. And if said exception is tolerated, why not in defense of strangers?

Then we get with the death curse (that is also a blatant retcon). So, killing people with magic is bad unless you are dying? Again, how does this work?
(Also, does anyone thinks this withe god is an asshole for giving the magical sword to a developed nation suburban dad instead of the people on vampire island?)
Not really. We know the Knights travel, and it’s not like there aren’t supernatural evils in America that need to be beaten down before they grow too big. Plus one of the previous Knights was some dude called “the Egyptian,” and besides Michael wasn’t a suburban dad when he started the job.

And being a successful business owner in America does give Michael the funds to be mobile as needed. I’d have to check, but I’m guessing that an American passport gets you visa-free entry to more countries than a Russian or Japanese passport.

He’s using his privilege to help people less fortunate!

I was actually wondering just the other day what Sanya and Shiro did for a living.
Good job he did protecting those in vampire south-american island.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

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Scrib wrote:Because the Archive was a huge part of her personality...
I have a hard time believing she would act simultaniously as the entity and a little girl, and requiring a man to "free" her. But okay, let's agree to disagree.

Wasn't Harry traumatised by the experience?
For the life of me I can't remember when that "trauma" had any negative impact in his actions. I could be mistaken - I don't remember it at all.
You're going to need to give some examples. Because "things happen close to him" was a sure thing in the early books and now it's more "things happen close to him or close to the NeverNever" but what you're saying goes far beyond that. I don't see how things happen because of him and him alone to be honest. A ton of shit happens that he didn't cause, he's often just reacting.
Let me ask you one thing: I read up to Dead Beat. Why was Bob formerly the super necromancer's skull? You expect me to believe that while it was in the posession of the Justin DuMorne, the DARK WIZARD, he would forget that knowledge? And that Harry would not only be unaware, but in possession of Bob with the knowledge of the council after standing trial?

This is once more a retcon. When I mean the universe revolves arround Harry in a Meta sense. And yes, the old adage that one should always write about the character in the most interesting part of his/her life, but this setting would be a lot more interesting, and, more importantly, credible, were not everything important to the setting at that point happening to or near Harry. I'll repeat myself once again: Dresden Files' world is small.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

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Ahriman238 wrote:I do use the term Mary Sue seriously, as an obvious author avatar who has no, or token, flaws, is treated as the special thing ever the world revolves around, excels in all things, never has to suffer the logical consequences of their actions or suffer at all, really, and is nearly universally loved, except by villains. Harry Dresden... is none of these.
My understanding of Mary Sue was wrong.
1Harry's character flaws are legion, he'd be quite an unlikable character if he didn't consistently try and do the right thing. He panics during a fight at least once a book, he's absurdly insensitive about some things, he has a temper problem that isolates him from his friends. For all that Harry has taken a pivotal role in world-shaking events, starting a war, securing passage through Faerie, killing the Summer Lady and a bunch of would-be gods, and countless more badass stunts, he 2remains a very little fish in a big pond. His greatest victories always came from crazy preparedness or insane outside-the-box thinking. H3e's as vulnerable to an unexpected half-brick in a sock as any other man, and people like Nicodemus, the Merlin or Mab could crush him like a bug in a stand up fight.
1: Token flaws, mostly. What is his fatal flaw? How does that affect him negatively in a serious way?

2: He does all that yet his life does not change. Where are the repercussions of his actions? What does he lose? Like previously stated, the series retained it's formulaic nature up to the point I just gave up.

3: Why don't they? He makes a lot of enemies yet not one single sniper shot to the head?
1Harry's magical skills are quite limited compared to his peers in the White Council, he says himself that he's good mostly at finding stuff and fighting, and even there he needs magical devices more experienced wizards would eschew. Harry started a war between vampires and wizards over a matter of love and principle, and the Council was perfectly happy to disavow him and throw him to the wolves to stop it,2 plus he had to endure dozens of attempts on his life, actually fight in said war, and mentor young Wardens only to see them be eaten by ghouls. He saves his namesake from the coin, but has to put up with Lash in his head for years and years afterwards. I can't say he gets a free ride.
1:So vaguely defined to the point of being meaningless.

2: WHY DIDN'T THEY? I saw no good reason for refusing to comply with the red court demands, nor how could harry, outcast, would get enough support not to get dispatched.

Up to the point I read, he remained at large. Other than the duel, I remeber no attemps on his life in a serious capacity, nor he fighting said war. If he did fight, good for him, Butcher at least improved.... sadly past the point anyone should care.

As for being universally loved, or at least respected? The Chicago police treat him as a bad joke, the White Council isn't much better. The only people who respect Harry are his small circle of close friends and family.
Yes, how wonderful that the city had the Black Cat cases, FBI agents used magic, Harry could show them some flash magic but does not. Seriously, this make no sense.

The white council disdain of him made no impact.


Now, the battle at the train station was intense, though the sprinklers idea occurred to me a bit before Harry caught on. And Tiny Goat Gruff has an even bigger brother? Yikes. And all this time, kidnapping Marcone, it was all a ploy to get Ivy? Don't get me wrong, she's a fine prize particularly if they can turn her with a coin, but she's probably the one person with more experience and knowledge of magic than them. How do they plan to contain her? Not to mention even capture will be a dicey prospect with Harry, Luccio, and Kincaid on the scene.
Never got to this part.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

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Spekio wrote:2: WHY DIDN'T THEY? I saw no good reason for refusing to comply with the red court demands, nor how could harry, outcast, would get enough support not to get dispatched.
I know one. How about because they're not Satan Himself-levels of evil? Seriously, handing somebody over to man-eating monstrosities? You don't do that.

Besides, then they vamp him and have a vampire wizard running around. That's what we call bad juju.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Spekio »

Rogue 9 wrote: I know one. How about because they're not Satan Himself-levels of evil? Seriously, handing somebody over to man-eating monstrosities? You don't do that.
They are perfectly fine with letting them reign free in a lot of places. They kill and island full of inocents because vamps ruled it. The White Council does not care about exterminating vamps, but coexisting with them.
Besides, then they vamp him and have a vampire wizard running around. That's what we call bad juju.
Again, the rules of magic are so vaguely defined and retconny that we do not know this to be the case - but since "magic comes from life" and vampires cease to be human, would he still be able to cast magic?

Not that they give this reason at all, mind you.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

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The White Council doesn't care about exterminating vamps because they can't. This is why they have peace:it's all they can get. We all saw what happened in a long war: they got the shit kicked out of them. And we saw what happened when a single high level wizard like Lucchio was...inconvenienced for a time: an important tool of theirs was lost. Completely. (This is stupid but it was after a war and that's how Butcher wanted it).

Even without Murphy's Law in effect the losses would have been horrendous and they would be against an enemy that could reproduce much faster and they'd lose what little policing ability they had. And this is assuming that some other faction doesn't jump in and end them opportunistically. Boom- humanity is done.

Also:Human magic comes from life. There are vampire wizards with black magic iirc. Spoiler
When vampires take you alive, it isn't so that they can treat you to ice cream. That was one of the really nightmarish facets of the war with the Red Court. If the enemy got you, they could do worse than kill you.
They could make you one of their own.
If they managed to turn a Warden, especially one of the senior commanders, it would give them access to a treasury of knowledge and secrets—to say nothing of the fact that they would effectively gain, in many ways, a wizard of their own. Vampires didn't use magic in the same way that mortal wizards did. They tapped into the same nauseating well of power that Kemmler and those like him used. But from what I understood of it, the skills carried over. A turned wizard would be a deadly threat to the Wardens, the Council, and mortals alike. We never talked about it, but there was a sort of silent understanding among wizards that we would never be taken alive. And an equally silent fear that we might be.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

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Scrib wrote:(This is stupid but that's how Butcher wanted it).
Fixed for you.

In all seriousness, would power as a wizard equate to power as a vampire? This is a part I sorta liked. It's a shame that Butcher hints at better story hooks a better writer would pick on yet never develops on them.
Even without Murphy's Law in effect the losses would have been horrendous and they would be against an enemy that could reproduce much faster and they'd lose what little policing ability they had. And this is assuming that some other faction doesn't jump in and end them opportunistically. Boom- humanity is done.
That said, why the secrecy? It only adds to the fact it makes no sense to remain hidden from the public at large (Only it's established it's not really secret when we have FBI agents with magic belts, except by author fiat.)
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Scrib »

I've added a quote that explains the wizard-vamp thing.

As for secrecy:Probably an old tradition. Probably distrust of morals and their...overreactions. Everyone might get it if they're revealed. And can you count on them to do the right thing when faced with the wrong supernatural threat (i.e. something not obviously evil like the Red Court)

Perhaps a cold war thing. Right now a lot of people are vying for control of the relatively pliant mortals for stability's sake. You make your moves in peace because everyone signed the Accords. Once you make it open then everyone starts overreacting. People start dying and creatures like vamps that can spread very fast have every incentive to just try to blob and carve out sections of the globe. And this will almost certainly mean war. Or a horrible new equilibrium.

The previous one was: you get to feed but you stay in the shadows. The new one will be:you get South America and the third world while we try to protect whatever remains by fighting a cold war that will also possibly lead to an actual war.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Coop D'etat »

Scrib wrote:I've added a quote that explains the wizard-vamp thing.

As for secrecy:Probably an old tradition. Probably distrust of morals and their...overreactions. Everyone might get it if they're revealed. And can you count on them to do the right thing when faced with the wrong supernatural threat (i.e. something not obviously evil like the Red Court)

Perhaps a cold war thing. Right now a lot of people are vying for control of the relatively pliant mortals for stability's sake. You make your moves in peace because everyone signed the Accords. Once you make it open then everyone starts overreacting. People start dying and creatures like vamps that can spread very fast have every incentive to just try to blob and carve out sections of the globe. And this will almost certainly mean war. Or a horrible new equilibrium.

The previous one was: you get to feed but you stay in the shadows. The new one will be:you get South America and the third world while we try to protect whatever remains by fighting a cold war that will also possibly lead to an actual war.

Its talked about explicitly in the books, in the magical world vanilla humans are considered to be like cattle. Individually, they are food and beasts of burden, but a if a mob of them get riled up they can ruin anyone's day. The Black Court vampires are considered a cautionary tale in that regard, once a great power, now close to extinct because enough angry villagers became aware of them and the methods to take them out. That invoking mortal authorities is considered akin to using nuclear weapons has been brought up a couple times in the books to my recollection.

Its also been a recurring theme that the recent human population growth has caught the White Council stretched too thin due how it take a normal human lifetime for a wizard to reach "maturity" so the WC is trying to contol a 21th century world with 18-19th century institutions staffed at a levels porportionate to 19th-early 20th century population. Consequently the "masquerade" is being increasingly stretched at the fringes. That isn't even factoring in the distablising effect modern technology is having on the supernatural world either.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Ahriman238 »

For the life of me I can't remember when that "trauma" had any negative impact in his actions. I could be mistaken - I don't remember it at all.
There was a whole subplot for the next book about how Harry is now afraid to conjure fire, and because of this effectively cannot. He does get over it, but not easily.

1: Token flaws, mostly. What is his fatal flaw? How does that affect him negatively in a serious way?
He's impulsive, emotional, a sucker for a lady with teary eyes, and generally pretty easy to manipulate if you understand him. He, again, starts a war that nearly gets him killed several times, nearly gets his loved ones killed several times, and does kill several teenagers for whom he had assumed responsibility. He was set up to be coined by Nicodemus, who again in the book I'm on manipulated him into calling the Archive to mediate their dispute specifically so the Denarians could hit the Archive. Elaine played him like a fiddle in Summer Knight. He was manipulated into assaulting Arctis Tor, and we haven't seen all the bad news coming his way from that.

3: Why don't they? He makes a lot of enemies yet not one single sniper shot to the head?
Mab and Nicodemus see him as a resource and recruit, not a rival. The Merlin isn't going to just throw down with him in a magical brawl. Lara Raith and Marcone try and keep their people out of Harry's way, and he is sometimes useful to them. The vamps, AFAIK has never tried a sniper. But they have tried multiple ambushes by gunmen, a car bomb, a duel to the death, a massive ghoul strike force, and on one memorable occasion, delivery of a claymore pizza.

Kincaid points out (and in his head, Harry agrees) that a sniper rifle is a fine way to take out a wizard so quickly he can't even get off a death-spell. Why it's not more commonly used, I can't say.

2: WHY DIDN'T THEY? I saw no good reason for refusing to comply with the red court demands, nor how could harry, outcast, would get enough support not to get dispatched.
Because by vote in that same meeting Ebenezer McCoy was elevated to the Senior Council, and he lobbied long and hard to get Ancient Mai and Injun Joe on Harry's side?

Up to the point I read, he remained at large. Other than the duel, I remeber no attemps on his life in a serious capacity, nor he fighting said war. If he did fight, good for him, Butcher at least improved.... sadly past the point anyone should care.
There's a bit of Summer Knight where Harry describes some of the attempts made so far, and his growing paranoia of leaving his warded home. In Dead Beat Harry gets sort of drafted into the Wardens, because the war took a serious bad turn and there are now less a dozen in North America. In fact, he becomes one of four Warden Commanders in the US. After this there is much discussion of his fighting, after the events of White Night he helps set up a network of minor practioners to gang up on threats or pass along information, the Paranet.

But he really gets serious about the thing after the Battle of Camp Kaboom, where Harry and Ramirez were training young recruits in battle magic, they were ambushed by that large strike force of ghouls who carry off and devour alive several of Harry's students.

Harry's reflexes and instincts have clearly sharpened as a result of years of conflict with entities whose preferred anti-Wizard tactic is ambush.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by SAMAS »

Spekio wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:1Harry's character flaws are legion, he'd be quite an unlikable character if he didn't consistently try and do the right thing. He panics during a fight at least once a book, he's absurdly insensitive about some things, he has a temper problem that isolates him from his friends. For all that Harry has taken a pivotal role in world-shaking events, starting a war, securing passage through Faerie, killing the Summer Lady and a bunch of would-be gods, and countless more badass stunts, he 2remains a very little fish in a big pond. His greatest victories always came from crazy preparedness or insane outside-the-box thinking. H3e's as vulnerable to an unexpected half-brick in a sock as any other man, and people like Nicodemus, the Merlin or Mab could crush him like a bug in a stand up fight.
1: Token flaws, mostly. What is his fatal flaw? How does that affect him negatively in a serious way?
Depending on the book, they tend to get him nearly killed. Hell, in Fool Moon, they got someone else killed.
3: Why don't they? He makes a lot of enemies yet not one single sniper shot to the head?
Because that would be both boring and end the story, duh.

And speaking of that, IIRC, the war effected Harry all through the series. Hell, the very next book (Summer Knight, IIRC) opened with a vampire attack on him personally.
Spoiler
Then there was the time he got called out on what he did to a Red Court-caused attack while training young wizards for the Council, And the whole duel in Death Masks, oh, and the entirety of Changes, where pretty much everything you mentioned up to and including the sniper happened to him.
1Harry's magical skills are quite limited compared to his peers in the White Council, he says himself that he's good mostly at finding stuff and fighting, and even there he needs magical devices more experienced wizards would eschew. Harry started a war between vampires and wizards over a matter of love and principle, and the Council was perfectly happy to disavow him and throw him to the wolves to stop it,2 plus he had to endure dozens of attempts on his life, actually fight in said war, and mentor young Wardens only to see them be eaten by ghouls. He saves his namesake from the coin, but has to put up with Lash in his head for years and years afterwards. I can't say he gets a free ride.
1:So vaguely defined to the point of being meaningless.
No, he pretty much has crap for control. He's much like a rocket launcher. Descent power, but you really don't wanna use it for precision work. Unfortunately, a lot of what Harry does requires precision work.
2: WHY DIDN'T THEY? I saw no good reason for refusing to comply with the red court demands, nor how could harry, outcast, would get enough support not to get dispatched.
Probably for the same reason most countries refuse to negotiate with terrorists. Besides, it may sound sensible to you this one time, but what about the next time? Will you give up one of your own to be killed every time the Red Court throws a fit? What if you're the one they ask for?

Hell, how could you be sure they'd even stop? The Red Court set Harry up to start that war in the first place. They didn't do it just to kill him.
Up to the point I read, he remained at large. Other than the duel, I remeber no attemps on his life in a serious capacity, nor he fighting said war. If he did fight, good for him, Butcher at least improved.... sadly past the point anyone should care.
A lot of readers disagree with you there.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Terralthra »

Spekio wrote:Then we get with the death curse (that is also a blatant retcon). So, killing people with magic is bad unless you are dying? Again, how does this work?
It's quite impressive that you consider death curses to be a retcon, considering that they are mention in Storm Front, the first book.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Spekio »

Terralthra wrote:It's quite impressive that you consider death curses to be a retcon, considering that they are mention in Storm Front, the first book.
Indeed it is. Now we cleared the fact that is not a retcon, just poorly thought magic by the part of Butcher:
It only took me a few seconds to control myself again-but I didn't want to go back in that room. I didn't

need to see what was there anymore. I didn't want to see the two dead people, whose hearts had literally

exploded out of their chests.


And someone had used magic to do it. They had used magic to wreak harm on another, violating the

First Law. The White Council was going to go into collective apoplexy. This hadn't been the act of a

malign spirit or a malicious entity, or the attack of one of the many creatures of the Nevernever, like

vampires or trolls. This had been the premeditated, deliberate act of a sorcerer, a wizard, a human being

able to tap into the fundamental energies of creation and life itself.


It was worse than murder. It was twisted, wretched perversion, as though someone had bludgeoned

another person to death with a Botticelli, turned something of beauty to an act of utter destruction.

If you've never touched it, it's hard to explain. Magic is created by life, and most of all by the awareness,

intelligence, emotions of a human being. To end such a life with the same magic that was born from it was

hideous, almost incestuous somehow.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Spekio »

SAMAS wrote: Depending on the book, they tend to get him nearly killed. Hell, in Fool Moon, they got someone else killed.
He almost always die nearly everybook only to be saved an ally. I want to see him suffer. I want to see him in pain. I want to see tragic consequences from his actions in order to care for him. I want though choices and I want to see the consequences of said choices.

The only thing he lost was Susan, and that is due to HER actions, not his (I'm starting to see some misoginy in Butcher's writing, in retrospect). He comes unscathed, unharmed, untainted from every single one of his escapades. He is boring. Like a Bella Swan.
Because that would be both boring and end the story, duh.

And speaking of that, IIRC, the war effected Harry all through the series. Hell, the very next book (Summer Knight, IIRC) opened with a vampire attack on him personally.
Spoiler
Then there was the time he got called out on what he did to a Red Court-caused attack while training young wizards for the Council, And the whole duel in Death Masks, oh, and the entirety of Changes, where pretty much everything you mentioned up to and including the sniper happened to him.
Yes, plot armor and author fiat are not good reasons. He takes no measures to hide, move or anything significant. This is the same Red Court that is taking stronghold after stronghold of White Council Wizards and yet can't be bothered to blow a building where one hight value target, they seem incompetent.

By being incompetent, innefective, I stop taking the red court as a serious threat. If he is going on with his business no different than before the war started, once again we are reminded that the world of cardboard cut-outs revolves arround dresden.
No, he pretty much has crap for control. He's much like a rocket launcher. Descent power, but you really don't wanna use it for precision work. Unfortunately, a lot of what Harry does requires precision work.
How is that not vaguely defined? This also makes his anti-science rant on Storm Front all the more idiotic.
Probably for the same reason most countries refuse to negotiate with terrorists. Besides, it may sound sensible to you this one time, but what about the next time? Will you give up one of your own to be killed every time the Red Court throws a fit? What if you're the one they ask for?

Hell, how could you be sure they'd even stop? The Red Court set Harry up to start that war in the first place. They didn't do it just to kill him.
Yes, terrorists and an equal or overwhelming force are two different things. Previously we estabilished that Harry was not in good standing with the council. I don't see the majority of scared wizards refusing to hand over one life instead of the hundreds the war would cost.

Not like they could call on another powerfull organization to mediate.... oh wait.
A lot of readers disagree with you there.
Ad populum. So you are saying the Twilight series is good as well?
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Scrib »

Harry is not necessarily a high value target. How important is he? See, if the Red Court keep him around they can one day come and claim that they want peace at the cost of Harry's head putting the White Council in an awkward political position.

If they don't...one wizard is dead, a wizard they know, that has a fixed abode, that communicates with others they can then watch.
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Spekio »

Ahriman238 wrote: There was a whole subplot for the next book about how Harry is now afraid to conjure fire, and because of this effectively cannot. He does get over it, but not easily.
How did at all hampered him? And you just said he gets over it.

He's impulsive, emotional, a sucker for a lady with teary eyes, and generally pretty easy to manipulate if you understand him. He, again, starts a war that nearly gets him killed several times, nearly gets his loved ones killed several times, and does kill several teenagers for whom he had assumed responsibility. He was set up to be coined by Nicodemus, who again in the book I'm on manipulated him into calling the Archive to mediate their dispute specifically so the Denarians could hit the Archive. Elaine played him like a fiddle in Summer Knight. He was manipulated into assaulting Arctis Tor, and we haven't seen all the bad news coming his way from that.
I point you to my post just above this one.

Mab and Nicodemus see him as a resource and recruit, not a rival. The Merlin isn't going to just throw down with him in a magical brawl. Lara Raith and Marcone try and keep their people out of Harry's way, and he is sometimes useful to them. The vamps, AFAIK has never tried a sniper. But they have tried multiple ambushes by gunmen, a car bomb, a duel to the death, a massive ghoul strike force, and on one memorable occasion, delivery of a claymore pizza.

Kincaid points out (and in his head, Harry agrees) that a sniper rifle is a fine way to take out a wizard so quickly he can't even get off a death-spell. Why it's not more commonly used, I can't say.
Look above. He goes on with his business as if there was no war. They way Butcher wrote them, seem like minor annoyances. I was expecting a major change of the status quo and a shift of focus to the war.

We don't get it. Butcher sticks with the same old formula once more.


Because by vote in that same meeting Ebenezer McCoy was elevated to the Senior Council, and he lobbied long and hard to get Ancient Mai and Injun Joe on Harry's side?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the same chapter he is introduced to the reader? Boy, he shure could be useful in the first book, when the concil was going to try Harry for the dark magic murders, right?

Because if it is, tell me how this isn't a obvious patch so we can keep the status quo?
There's a bit of Summer Knight where Harry describes some of the attempts made so far, and his growing paranoia of leaving his warded home. In Dead Beat Harry gets sort of drafted into the Wardens, because the war took a serious bad turn and there are now less a dozen in North America. In fact, he becomes one of four Warden Commanders in the US. After this there is much discussion of his fighting, after the events of White Night he helps set up a network of minor practioners to gang up on threats or pass along information, the Paranet.

But he really gets serious about the thing after the Battle of Camp Kaboom, where Harry and Ramirez were training young recruits in battle magic, they were ambushed by that large strike force of ghouls who carry off and devour alive several of Harry's students.

Harry's reflexes and instincts have clearly sharpened as a result of years of conflict with entities whose preferred anti-Wizard tactic is ambush.
I already adressed this.

That said, would a Let's Read of the entire series be of interest?
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Spekio »

Scrib wrote:Harry is not necessarily a high value target. How important is he? See, if the Red Court keep him around they can one day come and claim that they want peace at the cost of Harry's head putting the White Council in an awkward political position.

If they don't...one wizard is dead, a wizard they know, that has a fixed abode, that communicates with others they can then watch.
If he is not, why the proposed duel with the Archive mediating?
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Re: Bit of Lit: the Dresden Files

Post by Spekio »

Coop D'etat wrote: Its talked about explicitly in the books, in the magical world vanilla humans are considered to be like cattle. Individually, they are food and beasts of burden, but a if a mob of them get riled up they can ruin anyone's day. The Black Court vampires are considered a cautionary tale in that regard, once a great power, now close to extinct because enough angry villagers became aware of them and the methods to take them out. That invoking mortal authorities is considered akin to using nuclear weapons has been brought up a couple times in the books to my recollection.

Its also been a recurring theme that the recent human population growth has caught the White Council stretched too thin due how it take a normal human lifetime for a wizard to reach "maturity" so the WC is trying to contol a 21th century world with 18-19th century institutions staffed at a levels porportionate to 19th-early 20th century population. Consequently the "masquerade" is being increasingly stretched at the fringes. That isn't even factoring in the distablising effect modern technology is having on the supernatural world either.
Remember when I first mentioned the Old World of Darkness? This seems lifted from Vampire: The Masquerade. Only there the White Council closest equivalent, the Technocracy, had a reason to mantain the masquerade. In here we have a previous experience proving that a random dude with a rifle is more powerful than Dresden (Black Court), and by maintaining a masquerade (That only exists by author fiat, I'll repeat once again), they only harm the mortals they are protecting.
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