The Killing Joke (movie spoilers)

[LadyTevar]

Yes, this is the movie adaptation of Alan Moore's (in)famous story, all dolled up by Bruce Timm and his cast of BTAS veterans. For those that have read the novel, nothing is really surprising but the first thirty minutes where we focus on Batgirl's last mission under the hood, prior to the Joker shooting her.
Oh, did you not know that happened? Where have YOU been the last twenty years? Under a rock?

Anyway, the first thirty minutes some have been calling 'padding' and 'unneeded', but I found it a good lead-in to the main story. Babs is facing not just a mobster with an obsession for her, but also her own emotions where it comes to Batman and wearing the cape. This does lead to the scene that has critics and some fans outraged, but fans of "Batman Beyond" know they weren't just partners. Folks are just up in arms that it's so blatant. What they're missing as they get butt-hurt over the sex is how Timm is using Batgirl and the mobster as a comparison. The mobster's obsession and games with Batgirl are a glimpse into Joker's obsession with Batman. Batman sees the parallels, and warns Babs that she's still seeing the cape as excitement and adventure. One day, she will have to make the choice of how far will she go. When Babs does see the Abyss, her choice leads her to be with her father when the Joker knocks.

The rest of the movie is taken straight from the graphic novel, right down to the script. There is nothing happy-go-lucky with this Joker, not even a trace of the jolly little jingle in the music. Hamill plays this one darker than even Arkham Asylum, and Moore's lines have never had so much malice. The Joker is proving a point, that it only takes One Bad Day to drive a man insane. Having that man be Jim Gordon is merely a bonus, when the real catch is Batman. After all, Batman had to have had his own Bad Day, right?

There was another touch that truly amused me, and that was the Joker's goons. Someone is a fan of American Horror Story, and borrowed likenesses for the Joker's Freak Show. It was a small touch of sardonic humor injected into the horror of Gordon's torture.

Like the novel, it's ambiguous if the Joker did anything other than strip Babs naked and take pictures. Personally, I've always believed he didn't -- the pictures weren't even to humiliate her, they were merely props in Joker's plan to drive Gordon insane. No need to do the deed when the human mind is so good at imagining the worst case scenario. Once the pictures were taken, Babs was left behind for the police to find, another prop to cause the cops and Batman misery.

Over all, I liked this movie. It was everything the graphic novel was -- dark, disturbing, horrific. I can't say I loved it; as I type this, I have a shotglass of Jack that I'm sipping to help me digest the movie. It echoes the shower I felt I had to take after reading the graphic novel years ago. I doubt I'll even buy a copy, as this is a movie you only need to see once for it to stay in your head.

[mr friendly guy]

What they're missing as they get butt-hurt over the sex is how Timm is using Batgirl and the mobster as a comparison. The mobster's obsession and games with Batgirl are a glimpse into Joker's obsession with Batman. Batman sees the parallels, and warns Babs that she's still seeing the cape as excitement and adventure. One day, she will have to make the choice of how far will she go. When Babs does see the Abyss, her choice leads her to be with her father when the Joker knocks.

I must admit, I never thought about it that way. I just thought they needed to show Batgirl in action so we know what was taken away from her when the Joker shot her. We know what she used to be able to do. I realised he was obsessed with Batgirl, but it just never crossed my mind that it was a parallel to the Joker's own obsession with Batman.

[Ralin]

Like the novel, it's ambiguous if the Joker did anything other than strip Babs naked and take pictures. Personally, I've always believed he didn't --

It's been awhile, but I once read somewhere that Alan Moore has said that no, the Joker did not rape Barbara Gordon.

He went on to say that the Joker's goons may have raped Commissioner Gordon. Because this is Alan Moore we're talking about.

[Lord Revan]

If you ask me I think it's whether the Joker truly raped Barbara Gordon is irrelevant, IIRC in the orginal work the Joker didn't even know Barbara Gordon was/had been Batgirl and she wasn't the Gordon the Joker was truly after. (I'll admit I've not seen the movie yet so that could have been changed or I could been mistaken the first time).

[LadyTevar]

If you ask me I think it's whether the Joker truly raped Barbara Gordon is irrelevant, IIRC in the orginal work the Joker didn't even know Barbara Gordon was/had been Batgirl and she wasn't the Gordon the Joker was truly after. (I'll admit I've not seen the movie yet so that could have been changed or I could been mistaken the first time).

No, you're absolutely right. Joker didn't know the connection, it was nothing personal against Babs, she was just a way to hurt Gordon. Even if Joker had known, she would probably still have been just a means to drive a few psychological nails into Batman, the same way the Joker used Jason Todd/Robin.

[Batman]

While the Joker has been shown to be perfectly okay with selling WMDs , USING WMDs ('Last Laugh') in an 'if I die so do as many other people as I can manage' scenario, murder, torture, extortion and all other manner of criminal activities I don't think he's ever been portrayed as a rapist, endorsing this behavior in his stooges, or being involved in sexual exploitation (And we KNOW prostitution exists in Gotham, that's how Selina started out in 'Year:One').

[LadyTevar]

While the Joker has been shown to be perfectly okay with selling WMDs , USING WMDs ('Last Laugh') in an 'if I die so do as many other people as I can manage' scenario, murder, torture, extortion and all other manner of criminal activities I don't think he's ever been portrayed as a rapist, endorsing this behavior in his stooges, or being involved in sexual exploitation (And we KNOW prostitution exists in Gotham, that's how Selina started out in 'Year:One').

There's actually a scene in "The Killing Joke" where Batman is talking to prostitutes, who say that while the Joker usually stopped by for a little fun whenever he escaped, they hadn't seen him this time.

[The Romulan Republic]

Okay, I don't want to know what the Joker's idea of "fun" is.

[Joun_Lord]

Knowing the Joker its probably very terrible. Its probably hours of the prostitute telling the worst possible knock-knock jokes.

The man never seemed to want to have anything to do with anything sexual but terrible jokes he'd probably love.

[The Romulan Republic]

I can see him doing whatever would be less predictable in the situation, just for the hell of it.

[LadyTevar]

Knowing the Joker its probably very terrible. Its probably hours of the prostitute telling the worst possible knock-knock jokes.

The man never seemed to want to have anything to do with anything sexual but terrible jokes he'd probably love.

From the way the prostitutes were acting, it probably was sex, and the Joker paid his money like a good John.

[Solauren]

I don't think the Joker raped her in the movie either.

Someone would have said something.

Also, we have to consider that (this version of the Joker, anyway) had a pregnant wife before he snapped, and still remembers her.

It's possible that he can't do anything violent and sexual to a woman because of that.

Hell, it's possible, when it comes to sex, that's the one think the Joker is normal about!

(I mean, there has to be a reason Harley Quinn just can't quite him beyond the insanity....)

[FireNexus]

Was it a "Thankfully we haven't seen him this time" or "He hasn't been around"? Because of the pimp angle, he may have been less than gentlemanly but compensated the pimps well and/or scared them into inaction.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't think the Joker raped her in the movie either.

Someone would have said something.

Also, we have to consider that (this version of the Joker, anyway) had a pregnant wife before he snapped, and still remembers her.

It's possible that he can't do anything violent and sexual to a woman because of that.

Hell, it's possible, when it comes to sex, that's the one think the Joker is normal about!

(I mean, there has to be a reason Harley Quinn just can't quite him beyond the insanity....)

Harley Quinn is basically brainwashed/Stockholm syndrome or something along those lines, isn't she?

But I do think it would be funny in an ironic way if the Joker's sexual preferences were the most normal, vanilla thing ever.

[Batman]

Not really. She fell for the Joker when she was his therapist. A brainwash/Stockholm syndrome situation didn't occur until AFTER she already decided to become Harley.

[LadyTevar]

Was it a "Thankfully we haven't seen him this time" or "He hasn't been around"? Because of the pimp angle, he may have been less than gentlemanly but compensated the pimps well and/or scared them into inaction.

It was definitely the "He's not been around". Nothing was said about what he asked for, but the girls didn't seem afraid of his business.
Maybe he is quite vanilla, or just easy to please. It was left totally up to the viewer's imagination.

[Panzersharkcat]

While the Joker has been shown to be perfectly okay with selling WMDs , USING WMDs ('Last Laugh') in an 'if I die so do as many other people as I can manage' scenario, murder, torture, extortion and all other manner of criminal activities I don't think he's ever been portrayed as a rapist, endorsing this behavior in his stooges, or being involved in sexual exploitation (And we KNOW prostitution exists in Gotham, that's how Selina started out in 'Year:One').

The only one I know of was Brian Azarello's standalone Joker graphic novel, where he and his henchmen raped narrator Jonny Frost's ex-wife. There was one mini-series, Cacophony, written by Kevin Smith where Joker claimed to want to rape Batman's corpse. Don't think that was canon, though.

[FaxModem1]

Just watched it. It'll never happen, but I'd like to see a straight up Batgirl movie one day.

While I'd like to see the connection, it really feels as if we ran into two films. The first one I'm going to call Batgirl: A Day in the Life, with The Killing Joke being the second half of this double feature. So first off, A Day in the Life. Batman and Batgirl's relationship felt very...natural. Co-workers, friends, etc., sometimes develop feelings for one another, or in this case, with Barbara having more feelings for Bruce than he does for her. It's unresolved tension, and they release it. But after that, the week after, it's ruined what they had. And Barbara moves on, knowing that it won't work between them, and tries to pick up the pieces of her life.

Paris felt like an interesting nemesis for Batgirl, and shows how much she was hurt by the obsession, and how her frustration with her life was being pushed into how she dealt with by the man who pushed her.

After that, the main attraction. Batman and the Joker, with Gordon being used as a way for Joker to try and prove a point. Barbara is dropped after her needed exposition. And except for the post-credits scene, she's not really in the plot at all, used by the Joker to try and drive Gordon insane, just like the book. After a while, it did feel like we were Gordon, being in the Joker's horror show, unable to escape. If we're supposed to think of Gordon as an everyman, this story works. If he's supposed to be a character, he's been an extra until his daughter is shot, and then we're getting a heavy look at him, which hurts the film.

As for the Joker's backstory. Like the comic itself, it shows his origin, and how he became what he is. Personally, I've always been against anything that humanizes the Joker. In addition to him having a wife and unborn child, but also regularly getting busy with hookers just seems too human for him. To me, he's a force of nature, or the epitome of evil itself. But that's a personal opinion. It was well executed, nevertheless.

One thing that struck me while watching this, is that there must have been an incident somewhere, where Joker and his freak show minions were having song and dance rehearsals, to have this all ready for when Gordon goes through the ride so that they can drive him crazy.

Joker: "Come on, Jerry. You have to circle clockwise on this beat, stop trying to make it look like you're breakdancing. Pammy, I know you're tired and weigh over 300 pounds, but you have to show energy. Clyde, I want more jazz hands. Let's do this from the top. 1,2, 3, 4"


Overall, I enjoyed it, but I think I too need a drink after watching this.

[Ralin]

As for the Joker's backstory. Like the comic itself, it shows his origin, and how he became what he is. Personally, I've always been against anything that humanizes the Joker. In addition to him having a wife and unborn child

Okay, haven't seen the movie yet but you do realize the Joker straight up says that his memories of the past change constantly and that he himself isn't sure whether what he's saying is true, right? At best he's telling Batman the truth as far as he remembers it, and that doesn't count for a lot given that he is by his own admission insane and delusional.

but also regularly getting busy with hookers just seems too human for him.

Eh. Batman: The Animated Series already implied he was banging Harley Quinn.

[LadyTevar]

As for the Joker's backstory. Like the comic itself, it shows his origin, and how he became what he is. Personally, I've always been against anything that humanizes the Joker. In addition to him having a wife and unborn child, but also regularly getting busy with hookers just seems too human for him. To me, he's a force of nature, or the epitome of evil itself. But that's a personal opinion. It was well executed, nevertheless.

Overall, I enjoyed it, but I think I too need a drink after watching this.

Yeah, a lot of folks seem to come out of it 'feeling dirty'.

As for the his origin, Joker does state clearly that he likes his past "multiple choice". As far gone as he is, I think the Joker makes up his past to whatever will get the most sympathy out of the audience. So far, the ONLY Facts we have are 1. Joker was in the chemical factory and 2. he fell into the chemicals.
Was there even a Red Hood Gang? Was Joker under the hood, or was he one of the goons? Hell, was Batman even there?

[FaxModem1]

While he does say this to Batman, the flashbacks seem to make it that this is Joker's true past, unless somehow Joker is lying to the audience.

[Napoleon the Clown]

While he does say this to Batman, the flashbacks seem to make it that this is Joker's true past, unless somehow Joker is lying to the audience.

It's been implied that not even the Joker is sure of his own past. He could sincerely believe that the origin recounted in The Killing Joke is the real deal one day, and then the next think that it's just something he made up to try and get sympathy. Or both views at the same time. He has a very, very warped view of the world and the nature of reality while still being able to plan things out and manipulate the hell out of people.

[Gandalf]

Finally saw it last night. That was a fucking waste of time and talent.

I can't decide whether it was a Batgirl film with some Batman/Joker stuff tacked on, or someone padded the shit out of the original book.

[Batman]

Given the original book was short as hell (44 pages and half of that was flashbacks) they pretty much had to pad the hell out of it to make it a full length movie.

[Gandalf]

But then why does it need to be a full length feature?