Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

[Elheru Aran]

I can't say I'm particularly enthused about Doomsday. Especially as it looks like they basically clone Zod or something.

The rest of it looks adequate enough. Batman is suitably broody, Superman is suitably arrogant. *shrugs* It ticks the requisite categories off... and then? I don't know. We'll see. All I know is that I'm far more interested in Civil War than this.

[Mr Bean]

I can't say I'm particularly enthused about Doomsday. Especially as it looks like they basically clone Zod or something.

The rest of it looks adequate enough. Batman is suitably broody, Superman is suitably arrogant. *shrugs* It ticks the requisite categories off... and then? I don't know. We'll see. All I know is that I'm far more interested in Civil War than this.

Nope, nope and nope

Sorry kids but this is my official DC fucked up again line.

What was the first thing Iron man fought? Ironmonger not the Mandarin
What was the first thing Superman fought (This reboot) it was Zod not one of Superman's second stringers or the obvious choice Lex
What was the first thing Thor fought? Loki backed up by Destroyer
What was the first thing Green Lateran fought? Parallax arguably his strongest villain right off the bat

We've seen this time and again with Marvel playing the long game and willing to use lesser but more interesting or more stepping stone villains to reach the big Marvel villains while DC frantically throws the strongest people right off the mark convinced they will only get a single movie in before everything goes to shit.

So it's Superman VS Batman but wait... here comes Wonder woman AND fucking Doomsday, the villian famous for being strong enough to kill Superman. Not say Bizzaro, not Metallo, Parasite heck Toyman or Bruno Mannheim. Granted the last two would not force a teamup between Batman and Superman but you know who would have been a great villian to stop the Superman V Batman showdown?

Zod... shame he got his necked snapped by "I don't kill" superman who it's not famous for the fact is Zod giving him access to the ability to imprison those he defeats aka the Phantom Zone.

[Elheru Aran]

Well to be fair Supes faced Luthor in something like... what... 3 out of 6 past movies? They might have thought he was a bit overdone as a villain.

I have to say I think Suicide Squad will probably be a bit more interesting, but I haven't heard much about it lately.

I also think I've heard some buzz about Metallo possibly figuring in the movie at some point, but no confirmation.

[Mr Bean]

Well to be fair Supes faced Luthor in something like... what... 3 out of 6 past movies? They might have thought he was a bit overdone as a villain.

I have to say I think Suicide Squad will probably be a bit more interesting, but I haven't heard much about it lately.

I also think I've heard some buzz about Metallo possibly figuring in the movie at some point, but no confirmation.

The problem is Metallo requires Kryptonite and Superman Returns was created without Kryptonite in place or bother to explain it or mention it. The old Superman comics had an excellent explanation in that Superman's ship as a baby dragged along some fragments of Krypton with him that become floating debries in our solar system some landing random places on earth others ending up on the moon or other planets in our solar system and a chunk being wedged into the ship itself and eventually removed when the Government tracked down Superman's ship. This hunk of rock goes on to power Metallo and Lex gets his hands on a chunk.

It was a nice symmetry but instead we've got Batman Vs Superman and it's Eisenberg instead of Heinsberg.

[Batman]

Um-Superman Returns had a giant kryptonite Island as a major part of the plot. I think you meant Man of Steel.
And while I'm generally less then whelmed by what I've seen so far, the 'I thought she was with you' exchange between me and Clark when Diana Shows up was 100% superhero comics.

[Mr Bean]

Um-Superman Returns had a giant kryptonite Island as a major part of the plot. I think you meant Man of Steel.
And while I'm generally less then whelmed by what I've seen so far, the 'I thought she was with you' exchange between me and Clark when Diana Shows up was 100% superhero comics.

I was sorry, this reboot was Man of Steel not Superman Returns.
Even better Man of Steel fights Metallo rather than Zod. Just imagine the imagery of Batman and Superman fighting then independence day style Zod shows up.

[Kane Starkiller]

Wait people are actually referencing Marvel's ridiculously long tease of Thanos as a positive example? They had that purple doofus sitting on a chair for the last 10 years while they keep stuffing the movies with uninteresting villains.

Movies are not TV shows, years pass from one to another and I don't want to sit through DC version of Justin Hammer, Aldritch Killian, Malekith and Ronan before they get to the good stuff.
It's not as if there is a shortage of villains: Brainiac, Darkseid, Greek gods etc.

I want massive spectacle now. I'll worry about the villain for the 2025 movie when the day arrives.

[Iroscato]

I'm actually back on board after watching the trailer again a couple times. Lex is more funny than irritating in the first bit - looking at his facial expressions there's some rather obvious twitching going on (possibly a side effect of putting on a facade?). Hopefully he delivers a more layered performance than cackling nutjob and/or giggling schoolboy.

I also love that little exchange between Bats and Supes, good to see they won't just be growling at each other the whole film.

[Crazedwraith]

Wait people are actually referencing Marvel's ridiculously long tease of Thanos as a positive example? They had that purple doofus sitting on a chair for the last 10 years while they keep stuffing the movies with uninteresting villains.

Thanos was first teased in Avengers. 2012. He'll appear in Avengers 3. in 2018. That's only 6 years of tease and only 3 to date. So 10 is a slight exaggeration there.

I note most of your examples of bad villains were from solo films. Where you wouldn't see Thanos anyway.

I can see both sides here. You can't lead with your best villain and leave no-one else for the sequels. Sequels have to escalate after all. But you've got to have a good enough villain to get sequels. And Marvel's done pretty damn well there so far.

[Elheru Aran]

10? They only showed Thanos at the end of Avengers for the first time, and that was... I wanna say 2012. So it's only been coming up on four years. Sure, there was a little talk about him outside the movies, but I don't think anybody started putting two and two together until Captain America I, Thor, and Avengers. Honestly I'm pretty sure they didn't quite know what they were doing until after they brought Joss Whedon on board and started crafting a more cohesive narrative. That would've been, I think, after the second Hulk, possibly after Iron Man 2.

Spectacle does have its place, but the thing with comic books is that they're continuing stories. Nolan Batman aside, they aren't closed. You don't just have one big event and leave it at that; they keep going. There's always another story to spin, another plot to fill. I don't have an issue with the Marvel movies building up to a big event; I'd rather they do that than waste time trying to wow us with massive spectacle, because it's hard to really do that right without being lame (see ID4, Superman Returns, Spiderman 3, etc). The problem with throwing Doomsday in our faces from the get-go is that Doomsday is a Big Deal, and hard to follow.

On the topic of Kryptonite, IIRC in the first trailer they showed some. Perhaps Luthor figures out how to synthesize an anti-Superman substance from the remains of the Kryptonian ships after Man of Steel?

[Mr Bean]

Here's the thing Villains have tiers. DC always (Except for Batman) starts out with their top tier villian leaving no way to build up for sequels because they don't expect them. Superman is superman, most of his villains are strong because they have to be to face Superman. Batman does not have that problem much because his villains tend to think much bigger than Supermans villains do unless they are Darkseid or Zod. Had Man of Steel been set up better with the explicit hope of Batman V Superman we could have seen a much better movie in the same way Avengers 1 is a better movie because it's Loki and Thanos slave race VS the Avengers not them VS Thanos. DC would have had Avengers fighting Thanos if they had there way and he's been built up over four years not eight to be the proper sized threat he is unlike Doomsday will be because Doomsday is someone you bring out after/just before you throw out Darkseid. Both are designed to be end boss villains.


Let me sell you Marvels Man of Steel real quick.
(In another reality) The government is concerned because they keep getting odd reports. Superman is quietly going around saving the day as he wanders the US saving people, all the government is getting back is unconfirmed reports of some "super guy" super speed pulling oil workers out of a detonating platform, a 747 falling out of the sky gently being set down on a field instead of crashing into the ground. Jaws like we don't see Superman but see his actions as he one by one saves people via the traditional superpowers and each time 30 second flashback to him learning the power as a kid. It's not till something big that someone gets a cell phone video look at the guy. Fast forward Mr Kent runs into an old high school friend working at the daily bugle and gets his job. Fast forward it's been two years now, Clark has his associates degree in journalism (Online courses of course) and he moves up from the mail room to club reporter, everyone likes that nice Clark fellow kinda clumsy but last week something big happened (Heck have it be a Batman villian tie it in) and someone got good but blurry footage of a man sized person flying around punching terrorists or blowing out a forest fire something important to do but impossible to hide whatever it is.

Clark goes home, people know about him, they are talking on the news and he gets the talk with the Kents, the reveal of the super suit make sure they have already had this conversation (Maybe on his 18th birthday or something) and he Iron man like decides to declare himself publicly which moves into part 2/3 the Government freak out and the experiment or counteraction that goes rogue and Superman has to save the day. Things get out of hand, Wayne tower takes a hit but THIS time Superman TRIES (and fails) to limit the collateral damage rather than adding to it. Thus setting up Superman V Batman

But DC can't do that, they can't think one movie ahead because they barely think one act ahead which is hilarious because DC comics is far better at long term story lines than Marvel has ever been so I'm still at a loss for why they can't do what Marvel has already demonstrated the rules for.

[FSTargetDrone]

Also, Doomsday is 100% confirmed, but looks more like the cave troll from LOTR than the dude from the comics.

Funny, my first thought was that it looked like The Abomination from The Incredible Hulk (2008).

[Tribble]

Also, Doomsday is 100% confirmed, but looks more like the cave troll from LOTR than the dude from the comics.

Funny, my first thought was that it looked like The Abomination from The Incredible Hulk (2008).

Same here.

So, they chose to include Doomsday of all things when we already have to deal with Lex, Batman V Superman, Wonder Woman and Aquaman? And after including Zod in the last film? Really???

Doomsday is not the type of villain you use for a film like this, as others have noted he's a "final level" boss. Plus, he's only really known for one thing, which is "killing" Superman. Except here, it's almost guaranteed that he won't (or that Superman will be "dead" for all of 5 minutes). Unless Superman's "death" is what actually inspires the Justice League to come together and he stays dead until at least the next movie (even including any post-credit scenes) Doomsday's role here is completely pointless. But what are the odds of that happening? No, it'll probably be just another drawn out General Zod-like fight, where Superman and the League end up having to kill the poor bastard...

...Wait, this will be a literal repeat of the Zod fight, since this Doomsday is apparently based off of Zod's corpse!

EDIT: Actually, it would be pretty funny if it turned out that Doomsday was in fact a separate creature, and in the end credits its revealed that Zod has been re-animated...as Bizarro

[Tsyroc]

Also, Doomsday is 100% confirmed, but looks more like the cave troll from LOTR than the dude from the comics.

Funny, my first thought was that it looked like The Abomination from The Incredible Hulk (2008).

And the movie Abomination looked like the guy Mr. Hyde fights at the end of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

The Abomination is definitely a character that needs to make a return visit to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, preferably looking a bit more like his comic book self.


Anyway, I did like Wonder Woman's appearance there at the end. It's also nice that her arrival sort of kicked Superman and Batman into talking to each other a bit more like we'd expect the two of them to. I'm hoping that the Superman v. Batman part of the storyline is short, and that the arrival of Doomsday causes them to team up with each other (as well as Wonder Woman etc...) because they don't want another massive round of destruction like what happened when Superman was fighting Zod.

[Borgholio]

Don't forget Aquaman. He is supposed to show up there at some point too.

[SCRawl]

The Abomination is definitely a character that needs to make a return visit to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, preferably looking a bit more like his comic book self.

There was a brief mention as to his disposition in one of those Marvel One-Shots:

Set after the events of Iron Man 2 and The Incredible Hulk,[2] Phil Coulson informs Jasper Sitwell that the World Security Council wishes Emil Blonsky released from prison to join the Avengers Initiative. They see him as a war hero and blame the devastation in New York City on Bruce Banner. The Council orders them to send an agent to ask General Thaddeus "Thunderbolt" Ross to release Blonsky into S.H.I.E.L.D. custody. As Nick Fury does not want to release Blonsky, the two agents decide to send a patsy to sabotage the meeting. At Sitwell's urging, Coulson reluctantly sends "The Consultant": Tony Stark. As partially depicted in the post-credits scene of The Incredible Hulk, a disgraced Ross sits drinking in a bar, when he is approached by Stark, who annoys Ross so much that he tries to have Stark removed from the bar. In reply, Stark buys the bar and has it scheduled for demolition. The next day, Coulson informs Sitwell that their plan worked, and that Blonsky will remain in prison.

[Gandalf]

Actually, it would be pretty funny if it turned out that Doomsday was in fact a separate creature, and in the end credits its revealed that Zod has been re-animated...as Bizarro

That was my first thought, that this was just a way of having Bizarro, but more in tone for the new DCU.

[Iroscato]

Final trailer is up!

That right there. That is how Batman should fight.

[Crown]

I need this movie to be out right now dammit!

[Grumman]

Yeah, I'm still not convinced. This last trailer does look great, but so did the Man of Steel trailer. So did the Sucker Punch trailer. I do not trust Snyder to give us the awesome man vs god movie he's promising here.

[Crown]

Yeah, I'm still not convinced. This last trailer does look great, but so did the Man of Steel trailer. So did the Sucker Punch trailer. I do not trust Snyder to give us the awesome man vs god movie he's promising here.

I liked Man of Steel when it came out ... I'm a devoted zealot to that movie since then. I cannot wait for this movie.

(didn't see Sucker Punch though)

[Lagmonster]

I only need one thing from this movie, at all: A damned good reason why Batman was able to block that punch. As long as I can process that in a universe where so far, the existence of Kryptonite hasn't been firmly established, I'll be fine with whatever of the usual Snyder-esque inconsistencies crop up.

[Crown]

I only need one thing from this movie, at all: A damned good reason why Batman was able to block that punch. As long as I can process that in a universe where so far, the existence of Kryptonite hasn't been firmly established, I'll be fine with whatever of the usual Snyder-esque inconsistencies crop up.

Kryptonite shown in the first trailer, 2:48 mark;



I suspect that Wayne Industries and LexCorp either fight over or cooperate on clean-up in the Indian Ocean where Superman destroyed the World Engine in Man of Steel and they dig up anything that may have been affected by the World Engine.

[Batman]

If Tony can build himself a hulkbuster, who says I can't build myself something that can stands up to Clark? Besides, 'world of cardboard'. Could be that just as in the comics he habitually pulls his punches.
The me vs everybody fight at the start was awesome, and Jeremy Irons as Alfred worked quite well I think.

[Crazedwraith]

Very very Frank Miller in appearance and fight style there. Not too shabby at all.