Infinate crisis

[Ghost Rider]

Oh, I agree that for reading comics regularly, the 'Persecution!!!' would get old. This is why I enjoy Marvel in it's state as the X-Men movies and the like; in small doses, and with the threats shown there, it's utterly beleivable that they would be treated like scum. When they have saved it from umpteenth million non-Mutant threats.. Not so beleivable.

The thing is, the X-Men are NOT consistently dedicated superheroes like the Avengers and the Fantastic Four. They have a lot of mission creep and they have to spend a lot of time taking care of their own rather than engaging in active superheroing.

There's lot of other reasons, too. Fact is, the X-Men have a serious image problem, and they SUCK at marketing themselves to the public. They claim to be peaceful educators, but what kind of teachers wear high impact Kevlar (cookie for the quote) in public? They claim to be against mutant terrorism, and while they generally are, they have let so many ex-terrorists on their team that it's a wonder Nick Fury will even still give them the time of day. And appearance matters; many of them mutants at Xavier's school look extremely bizarre and have got even more bizarre powers, and that obviously cannot work for them. Plus, the label homo superior...there are very real, and perfectly reasonable in light of the behavior of certain extremist mutants, fears that mutants will soon replace human beings - violently so, if necessary. Even though the X-Men don't follow this creed, they cannot avoid being associated with it. In light of all these factors, it's a wonder they aren't hated even more. Sure, they've saved lives, but American blacks joined the military in WWII to fight for the people of the United States, and did that somehow sway the committed bigots? Fuck no. The books are written largely from the perspective of mutants, so we see that their really are good guys, public perception aside...but if you try and imagine what normal people might think of the X-Men, and you'll see a much different picture.

But there are lots of stupid inconsistencies that complicate things, so it makes less sense.

You bring up a couple good points that I agree...but it's really this. It's how that they do save the world, more times and the only time that makes sense they would get reviled was that godawful Onslaught scenario.

That made sense that people would think they are evil, because it show the Avengers and FF dying but not the mutants...but aside from that? Literally they save the world...do it almost weekly, and suddenly...oh there goes the anti mutant rally.

Honestly it should've end with God Loves, Man Kills. Because that honestly showed it best, and was for me the height of the Mutant vs Human persecution...but like JJJ and Spiderman...Marvel can't leave it alone when they need something quickie.

[Ghost Rider]

"We wish to maintain the illusion of change."

Let me guess. Harras?

Yes, wish though Jemas never had any real say in Marvel other then his job aka running the company, not pretneding to be half assed writer. I may never love Quesada...but Jemas was a fucking ignorant little retard.

[Gil Hamilton]

The whole Mutants being Persecuted thing in Marvel gets worse because it periodically resets every once in a while. I seem to remember the X-Men actually being view favorably by the public for a while in the eighties, this being the start of X-Factor being a government agency and hanging out in New York in their big office building (well, before Apocolypse's ship inadvertantly crushed it as a convenient excuse to get them to move aboard the Celestial craft). Then suddenly, bam, they hate the Muties again and look! there's the Mutant Registration Act and Project Wideawake! It's funny. The Fantastic Four, Spider Man, and the Avengers are no less freakish than any mutant, yet they don't nearly get the same irrational ire that mutants get. Hell, everyone things they are great, except for the Jonah Jameson and the odd New Yorker wanting to hit Spider Man with a rock. Only a few mutants seem to have made it publically, like Hank McCoy, but even he only does it in the scientific community really.

Oh well.

[Joe]

I thought Jemas did a pretty good job running the company even if he was a prick. Snatched up all that Vertigo talent, started the Ultimate line, really went hardcore with TPB. Gues some executives should be neither seen nor heard.

[Joe]

"We wish to maintain the illusion of change."

Let me guess. Harras?

Yes, wish though Jemas never had any real say in Marvel other then his job aka running the company, not pretneding to be half assed writer. I may never love Quesada...but Jemas was a fucking ignorant little retard.

What was the storyline you suggested, BTW?

[Vendetta]

It's not just him. Ellis and Moore have both said the same thing. It's the single most damaging force in comics.

[Ghost Rider]

Let me guess. Harras?

Yes, wish though Jemas never had any real say in Marvel other then his job aka running the company, not pretneding to be half assed writer. I may never love Quesada...but Jemas was a fucking ignorant little retard.

What was the storyline you suggested, BTW?

It was actually a tale about what Stick/Stone adn the whole Hand bit and really what DD played into that. The Hand for me wasn't just some bad Ninja organization but was something more. I mean members never dying, large mystical yabbering, some bits here there that have some interesting occult thoughts.

So for the story I expand that DD is like Miller thought of, one of the important pieces. A failure in Stick's eyes, but to the Hand he's a very much a threat, even if he doesn't realize why. More whatnot, it was that they basically had nearly all but destroyed Stick's whole opposition and DD was the last survior. The story was going to be a DD versus the Hand and I had proposed that maybe a couple of the minors would get killed(nothing on Page's level because I knew that wouldn't fly) as the Hand tries to clean house on him. But in the end it would add a little hint of DD is something beyond some random dude in tights.

That was at heart the proposal and the outline.

[Joe]

The whole Mutants being Persecuted thing in Marvel gets worse because it periodically resets every once in a while.

The public is fickle. Gay rights, for example, had enjoyed steadily increasing public approval up until the sodomy ruling and this recent gay marriage business...and now, not so much public support. Three steps forward, two steps back...like all social change.

The Fantastic Four, Spider Man, and the Avengers are no less freakish than any mutant, yet they don't nearly get the same irrational ire that mutants get.

The Fantastic Four...Reed Richards, IIRC, was already a well-respected figure before he got superpowers, so they've got that going for them. Plus, the Fantastic Four are a family; they've got a nice, easy-to-swallow, clean-cut image. Not really surprising.

Spidey...actually, I don't think he's widely loved, I get the feeling that the public is split right down the middle. Again, not surprising; Spidey, bless his heart never, got to make a good first impression, and the first impression is the only impression. His first public acts were 1) saving John Jameson, which he got libeled for in the Daily Bugle for and 2) ATTACKING THE FANTASTIC FOUR. Spidey's also got an image problem; he named himself after a disgusting insect that everybody hates, he's got kind of creepy powers (come on, if some guy started zipping around NYC shooting goo from his wrists and sticking to walls, more than a few people would be freaked out), and he's very secretive and has behaved very strangely in public on a number of occasions.

The Avengers...well, it's not surprising that they're loved; they are led by a beloved war hero that everyone can agree on and they had the full power of the US government behind them, which let them get away with things like hiring ex-terrorists, while the X-Men could not.

[Gil Hamilton]

The public is fickle. Gay rights, for example, had enjoyed steadily increasing public approval up until the sodomy ruling and this recent gay marriage business...and now, not so much public support. Three steps forward, two steps back...like all social change.

Yeah, but it's so arbitrary. It's like one issue they save New York or something to a cheering crowd (X-Factor in the beginning had a pretty good public image) and in the next suddenly people are out on the streets for the Mutant Registration Act.

I suppose they've had some bad falls to their image in the past, like Hank's newscaster girlfriend selling them out about the Legacy virus spreading to Moira (causing at least one instance of a mutant being chased down and beaten to death) but still. It seems so random.

The Fantastic Four...Reed Richards, IIRC, was already a well-respected figure before he got superpowers, so they've got that going for them. Plus, the Fantastic Four are a family; they've got a nice, easy-to-swallow, clean-cut image. Not really surprising.

I suppose, but then again for all intensive purposes they might as well be mutants. After all, Hank McCoy is a world reknown scientist too and doesn't even look as bad as the Thing does (he'd probably argue that he's touchably soft and cuddly), but he still gets crap.

Spidey...actually, I don't think he's widely loved, I get the feeling that the public is split right down the middle. Again, not surprising; Spidey, bless his heart never, got to make a good first impression, and the first impression is the only impression. His first public acts were 1) saving John Jameson, which he got libeled for in the Daily Bugle for and 2) ATTACKING THE FANTASTIC FOUR. Spidey's also got an image problem; he named himself after a disgusting insect that everybody hates, he's got kind of creepy powers (come on, if some guy started zipping around NYC shooting goo from his wrists and sticking to walls, more than a few people would be freaked out), and he's very secretive and has behaved very strangely in public on a number of occasions.

I always got the impression that New Yorkers kind of accepted him as a public institution. He's there and does good things (like rescues kittens during a battle with mafia strongmen) and puts alot of criminals behind bars (without killing them or even roughing them up too bad) and most people in town knows that he's not the SPIDER MENACE that Jameson puts out (except Aunt May, appearantly). He's part of New York, so the New Yorkers accept him as one of theirs. The recent Spiderman movies did a good job of portraying that.

The Avengers...well, it's not surprising that they're loved; they are led by a beloved war hero that everyone can agree on and they had the full power of the US government behind them, which let them get away with things like hiring ex-terrorists, while the X-Men could not.

So did X-Factor, but I suppose you are right, even though the Avengers DO have two people on their roster who belonged to a mutant terror group that actually had the word EVIL in it's name IE the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. You wonder what Captain America was thinking there.

[frigidmagi]

(without killing them or even roughing them up too bad) and most people in town knows that he's not the SPIDER MENACE that Jameson puts out (except Aunt May, appearantly)

Actually Aunt May knows now and has kinda become a spidey booster (has you would expect, I mean in all but one way Peter is her son.)

[Gil Hamilton]

Actually Aunt May knows now and has kinda become a spidey booster (has you would expect, I mean in all but one way Peter is her son.)

Now she knows, but for the longest time she was always reading about the AWFUL Spider Man the Daily Bugle was always going on about.

[Joe]

Yeah, but it's so arbitrary. It's like one issue they save New York or something to a cheering crowd (X-Factor in the beginning had a pretty good public image) and in the next suddenly people are out on the streets for the Mutant Registration Act.

I suppose they've had some bad falls to their image in the past, like Hank's newscaster girlfriend selling them out about the Legacy virus spreading to Moira (causing at least one instance of a mutant being chased down and beaten to death) but still. It seems so random.

Fair enough. The problem isn't the fact that they're hated, it's how the concept is executed, IMO.

I always got the impression that New Yorkers kind of accepted him as a public institution. He's there and does good things (like rescues kittens during a battle with mafia strongmen) and puts alot of criminals behind bars (without killing them or even roughing them up too bad) and most people in town knows that he's not the SPIDER MENACE that Jameson puts out (except Aunt May, appearantly). He's part of New York, so the New Yorkers accept him as one of theirs. The recent Spiderman movies did a good job of portraying that.

So did X-Factor, but I suppose you are right, even though the Avengers DO have two people on their roster who belonged to a mutant terror group that actually had the word EVIL in it's name IE the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. You wonder what Captain America was thinking there.

To be fair, Wanda and Pietro weren't exactly with the Brotherhood because they wanted to be, and neither of them ever approved of Magneto, but Wanda felt indebted to him.

[JME2]

I'm overall not impressed with what DC has in store; I'm still feeling the burn from IC and how that was hailed as the next Crisis. Riight....

Either way, the only two mini-series I plan on following in any event are The OMAC Project since Rucka's revisting threads from his run on Detective Comics (which I enjoyed very much) and Villains United since even I like a good super-villain cabal story every now and then (and though not impressed with CIC, I loved the reference to JL's The Secret Society).

[Hades]

I liked some of the ideas started in Identity crisis. Mainly the memory wiping thing. I thought this had really good potential for dramatic story telling espeically with the fact that they did it to Batman.

As for this whole them being targeted by the goverment thing my first thoughts were. rip of of Marvel and the similarities between the cadmus conspirisy in JLU. so im sceptical but i'll read it all anyway to see.

[JME2]

Also, as I've said in my Artwork thread, anyone who wants to show to the public their feelings regarding DC's recent moves is more than welcome to use this sig:

[Sriad]

As for secret identities, well, there's rumblings that Jason Todd is back (as the Red Hood, and yes, Todd's rumoured return is, frankly, the oldest trick in the book), and may have been for some while. Odds are he's connected.

And oh it's him because Winnick hinted in the Scarecrow arc earlier his run, that when in Hush, they dug up JT's bod...they ressurected him

As for ID crisis bit...it wasn't even the murder, it was Metzer's half assed try to make that pathetic idiot Light and the evil of DCU...are in essence really smart. Just dumb 99.9999999% of the time. Him and Jones need to read what they write more often then not.

I think it would be fucking great if there was a "Crisis of Infinite Ressurections" maxi-series. (it would probably have to be Elseworlds...) Some company takes WHATEVER way these mad scientists use to recall every other super-hero as good as new, and goes public, offering to bring back whoever you want for a chunk of cash. Grandma, favorite dog, hero, villain, celebrity, 18th century composer--it doesn't matter. For $35k you too can defeat death itself!

Wow, my mind boggles at the possibilities...

[2000AD]

Read it, laughed my ass off how bad they want to become Marvel.

"The Mutan...uh Metas are the menace...as the guardians of humanity...we must contain and defeat them. And oh yeah, Bats has developed a weapon for us!!!!"

Sounds a bit like Kingdom Come, minus the batman bit.

[Tsyroc]

I liked that in Alias there was some anti-mutant bigotry shown but that hospitals in NYC didn't have any problem treating mutants or super beings and even appeared to have people who had additional training in order to better treat them.


One of the things I like about the Ultimate Marvel Universe is that I don't really like Professor X. Sure he wants to help people but when it comes down to it he thinks mutants are better than humans just as much as Magneto does but he doesn't believe in Magneto's idea of rulling over a bunch of human slaves. Essentially he's a nicer person but he does have some supiority issues from time to time. It was hilarious having Wolverine going off about the Professor and Jean Grey in Ultimate Galactus: Nightmare. (Plus, it's always nice to see the Ultimates kick X-ass due to better thought/planning etc...).

Anyone ever wonder why, in either universe, Professor X never invited teen aged Peter Parker to go to the X school? I know he's not a mutant but being a mutate he could probably benefit from some of the special help that the Professor's school


Anyway, it sounds like DC is trying very hard to put the final nail in their company's coffin. Unless something really interesting comes out of this new Crisis it sounds like were heading back to the mid 80s and before, which was when I almost never read DC books at all.

Wasn't there some talk that DC was going to try and copy Marvel's "Ultimate" idea and have a new revamped DC universe to run parallel to the original one?

[18-Till-I-Die]

I'm curious, are these books selling? I mean, everyone keeps saying "they're putting the nail in their coffin" and "they're killing DC" but in reality is that so?

I simply dont imagine legions of fans making an exodus from DC and Marvel because of Identity Crisis. In fact i cant help but think they might have GROWN in their reader base over the years.

What i'm saying is, personal opinions aside, is the actual RL situation that bad? Cuase i read comics, i read Wizzard, and it doesnt seem anywhere near that bad.

[Joe]

Identity Crisis at the least sold like hotcakes and I'm pretty sure Countdown did too (it was sold out at my local store). It's the long term effects of these events that you have to worry about as far as keeping fans onboard go. The Clone Saga moved lots of comics in its infancy, for example, but I don't think anyone would argue that in the end the Clone Saga drove legions of readers away from the books.

[Vendetta]

Top selling books will generally hit 150,000, but the numbers decline sharply from there.

At his height, Superman shifted five million comics a month, now he pushes 100,000.

Comics are a pathetic little backwater industry.

To illustrate, if everyone who bought Spider Man comics monthly (Ultimate and Amazing) went to see the first movie four times each, they'd still only account for 1% of the audience.

Sales figures from ICv2

[18-Till-I-Die]

Identity Crisis at the least sold like hotcakes and I'm pretty sure Countdown did too (it was sold out at my local store). It's the long term effects of these events that you have to worry about as far as keeping fans onboard go. The Clone Saga moved lots of comics in its infancy, for example, but I don't think anyone would argue that in the end the Clone Saga drove legions of readers away from the books.

Well of course...but i mean, from what i've actually read i think some of whats being said about DC is misrepresentation.

They arent 'dying', and the stories actually arent that bad. Some of the fans are angry because they're going back to the Silver Age, but obviously not many fans. And really, even the idea of rolling back some of the stories to more Silver Age-ish stuff isnt so bad, really. Not Clone Saga bad.

As someone who grew up reading Marvel and DC (more Marvel but...) i really dont think any of the rescent stories drop to Clone Saga levels. You have to remember how UTTERLY CONTRIVED the Clone Saga was...i just dont think they're doing that badly.

[Joe]

Wasn't there some talk that DC was going to try and copy Marvel's "Ultimate" idea and have a new revamped DC universe to run parallel to the original one?

Sort of. The All Star line isn't going to be part of the DCU, I don't think, but it's not really going to be a cohesive universe (speaking relatively, of course) like Ultimate Marvel, either. Basically Frank Miller and Grant Morrison get to do whatever they want to with Bats and Supes.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Top selling books will generally hit 150,000, but the numbers decline sharply from there.

At his height, Superman shifted five million comics a month, now he pushes 100,000.

Comics are a pathetic little backwater industry.

To illustrate, if everyone who bought Spider Man comics monthly (Ultimate and Amazing) went to see the first movie four times each, they'd still only account for 1% of the audience.

Sales figures from ICv2

Well thats depressing.

I didnt think readership was that low! I buy the comics...even though there isnt a single comic shop in a black neighborhood so i have to drive out to hick's half acre in Lavonia to find one...still i go through it reguarly.

Maybe i'm just more devoted than i thought.

[Joe]

Identity Crisis at the least sold like hotcakes and I'm pretty sure Countdown did too (it was sold out at my local store). It's the long term effects of these events that you have to worry about as far as keeping fans onboard go. The Clone Saga moved lots of comics in its infancy, for example, but I don't think anyone would argue that in the end the Clone Saga drove legions of readers away from the books.

Well of course...but i mean, from what i've actually read i think some of whats being said about DC is misrepresentation.

They arent 'dying', and the stories actually arent that bad. Some of the fans are angry because they're going back to the Silver Age, but obviously not many fans. And really, even the idea of rolling back some of the stories to more Silver Age-ish stuff isnt so bad, really. Not Clone Saga bad.

As someone who grew up reading Marvel and DC (more Marvel but...) i really dont think any of the rescent stories drop to Clone Saga levels. You have to remember how UTTERLY CONTRIVED the Clone Saga was...i just dont think they're doing that badly.

On the contrary, I think Sins Past (ASM) is as bad as the Clone Saga and considerably more offensive.

But not, neither of the companies is doing anything near Clone Saga levels of awfulness right now (the Sins Past debacle is pretty much over, thank god). Still, even good stories can have long term effects that will drive away readers; I remember Marv Wolfman saying something about how one of the biggest flaws in the comics industry is how writers and editors don't consider the long-term consequences of their decisions.