PC upgrade question

[Modax]

I have a PC with a 2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600, 3gb ddr2 ram, and an Nvidia 512MB 8800 GT graphics card. Its in a small case which can't fit anything much bigger than the 8800 GT.

If I play any game which seriously stresses the graphics card for more than 30-40 minutes the game crashes. Sometimes the whole system locks up but that is rare. I have the latest drivers, I've tried everything but I think the problem is that the graphics card is overheating. However I've tried opening the case, increasing the ventilation and that doesn't fix it. So maybe the card is just faulty, or its something else entirely.

I would like to play Civilization V, and Elder Scrolls V, and probably Mass Effect 3 when that comes out.

What should I do:

-get the GPU a big new fan (I don't know how to install it or if it will fit)
-buy a new GPU (which kind?)
-get a new system

I would really appreciate your help

[Rabid]

First thing first : what is your budget ? How much are you willing to spend in order to be able to play those games and other games in the two to four years to come ?

This'll help people answer your question.


If you don't want want to buy a brand new system and wouldn't have a problem with increasing the physical size of your system, maybe you could think about buying a bigger, better cooled case, which would allow you to fit in it a better, more recent graphic card. If your case is cramped it may be why you are having problem now : the card could have been stressed by repeated over-heating problems, which could explain reduced performances today. Maybe. I don't know, I'm not an expert.
Is your Operating System 32- or 64-bits (XP, Vista or Seven ? Linux ?) ? If it is 64-bits, maybe you could think about upgrading the system with more RAM - chances are it wouldn't help with your particular problem in any way, though.

Question to the people around here : does having more than 1024 MB of RAM on a graphic card is useful nowadays ? Is it better to take a card with more than one GPU ?

[Modax]

I bought the system back in 2006, and it has Windows Vista 32-bit installed. I also forgot to mention that it has a 500-watt power supply, which really should be MORE than enough for what I'm running but I suppose that is another possible problem area. And my monitor is a 1680x1050 resolution, so i have no need at all for crazy GPU power.

I hadn't thought about upgrading to a new case. That could solve a lot of problems. My budget, when I really think about it, is under a 1000 dollars, which pretty much rules out getting a new system.

So basically i need to know, is my 5 year old CPU good enough to support a big GPU upgrade without creating a bottleneck, because if not I will just focus on fixing what I've got or replacing my GPU with a budget card which gives comparable performance to what I have now. (and what would that budget card be?)

If my CPU *IS* good enough to merit a big upgrade, what should i get, for a 500 dollar budget (including power supply upgrades if necessary)

[Starglider]

I recommend getting a Radeon 6870 in a month or two, when the 7-series cards come out and crash the prices of all the previous gen stuff. They should be going for $100 or so at that point, 6850 will be slightly cheaper and nearly as good.

So basically i need to know, is my 5 year old CPU good enough to support a big GPU upgrade without creating a bottleneck,

As long as you don't go for 'enthusiast class' cards, yes.

Question to the people around here : does having more than 1024 MB of RAM on a graphic card is useful nowadays ?

Not for gaming at 1920 x 1080 no, because no-one puts development time into supporting very rare configurations (>1024 Mb is very rare). For multi-monitor and stereo 3D gaming it becomes relevant, because then the render targets for modern deffered shading engines can stack up into hundreds of megabytes, crowding out the texture cache. 2/3/4 GB is useful for some GPGPU apps but that's probably less than 1% of buyers.

Is it better to take a card with more than one GPU ?

Multi-GPU solutions are always less efficient and more hassle than single-GPU solutions. However dual-GPU cards are usually a bit more efficient and reliable than combining two separate cards. So the only reason to use dual-GPU cards is to get more raw performance than is possible with the current best single GPU. Dual-GPU cards made with chips other than the top-end one are badly supported single vendor anomolies that exploit temporary gaps in the vendor's price/performance segmentation. Multi-GPU does not help with available memory at all; if you have two 1024 Mb cards in SLI / Crossfire the driver only sees 1024 Mb of usable memory. This is because the memory contents are effectively (not exactly) replicated across the local memory of all GPUs, a significant weakness of existing multi-GPU solutions.

[TronPaul]

When I plan for upgrades I use Tom's Hardware Hierarchy Charts. They help when choosing hardware at a price I want to. Here are the CPU and the graphics card articles.

If you don't plan on building a new system, but upgrading, you need to find where your bottleneck is, so you know what to upgrade. It's probably safe to assume the graphics card, but you might want to look more in depth at CPU usage and RAM consumption. Your graphics card is very out of date, and if you play current games, you will want an upgrade. A new graphics card should cost you only around $200. I've enjoyed the GTX 560 Ti and it's prices range from 200 to 270. If you plan on getting a processor I suggest the Intel i5 line (make sure your motherboard is compatible). It's not as expensive as the i7's and a decent price. I would also suggest getting more RAM and upgrading to a 64 bit OS. If you got a GTX 560 Ti and a i5 that should cost you around $500. You may need to upgrade your power supply to one with more wattage to handle the processor and video card, but I'm not sure.

[Zaune]

One other possibility is that the power supply is faulty. This first step-by-step guide to testing it I could find, but the manual method strikes me as something best left to the professionals; hell, I'd think twice before trying it and I am a professional.

[Starglider]

This first step-by-step guide to testing it I could find, but the manual method strikes me as something best left to the professionals; hell, I'd think twice before trying it and I am a professional.

A multimeter test is unlikely to reveal problems if the failure only occurs under sustained load. You'd need a dummy load at minimum, ideally an oscilliscope so you can check for ripple (or a professional tester). That said I don't know why you'd be worried about it, I jump-start PSUs all the time (mostly when using them as secondary PSUs to power extra graphics cards).

[TronPaul]

I haven't heard of a PSU causing lockups before. I think it's unlikely that his PSU would cause lockups, though I haven't had a PSU with intermittent failure before, once it goes, it just goes.

[Starglider]

I haven't heard of a PSU causing lockups before.

How much computer maintenance experience do you have? I've never had it as my primary job, but I have had this specific problem many times (I got the hardware support role by default at various start-ups) and this is a standard thing taught on PC maintenance courses.

I haven't had a PSU with intermittent failure before, once it goes, it just goes.

PSU failure is not a binary condition. Intermittent crashes can be caused by the PSU either insufficiently filtering input power spikes, creating excessive noise / ripple on its own (due to an unstable oscillator in the switching regulator or the smoothing caps dying) or having excessive voltage drop under load (usually due to internal resistance being too high).

[TronPaul]

I haven't heard of a PSU causing lockups before.

How much computer maintenance experience do you have? I've had this problem many times (I got the hardware support job by default at various start-ups) and this is a standard thing taught on PC maintenance courses.

I got an A+ certification 7 years ago and some MCPs two years later though I've never worked an official repair position, just for neighbors and family friends. I've had several power supplies die, but the lockup issues I've seen were from overheating, hard disk failing, and a lack of ram for software running.

[Terralthra]

I've had problems like the OP solved by a new PSU. I have a similar configuration to OP (Q6600, clocked up, 8 GB of RAM, 8800GT), and a 500 watt PSU was insufficient for significant load.

Also, the GPU is the next upgrade, because yeah, 8800GT is behind the times.

Starglider, why ATI over nVidia?

[Modax]

Thanks for all the replies!

So I will try upgrading to a larger case, a new PSU, and a Radeon 6870. How many watts do I need? Can someone reccomend a PSU as well? How does this 750watt one look? http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX34711

And what vendor should I look for for the graphics card?

[Rabid]

750 Watts for the PSU should be more than enough for your needs. With this power rating, even at maximum load it shouldn't have to go beyond 80-85% of it's nominal maximum power output. This is good for its life expectancy.

Looking on the AMD website, your chosen PSU (Corsair TX750) is OK-rated and certified to be compatible with the Radeon 6870.

[Starglider]

Starglider, why ATI over nVidia?

Because the impending release of the 78xx cards will discount the 68xx cards to unbeatable price/performance. The equivalent Nvidia release won't be for another four to six months.

[White Haven]

You just have to put up with ATI's goddamned idiotic driver release schedule and the havoc it causes.

[starslayer]

You don't need a 750 W PSU. That's a kind of ridiculous amount of headroom for a single GPU setup (for comparison, I run two 6970's in Xfire for my multi-monitor setup, and at full blast this system consumes 650 W or less). Corsair is a good brand, however.

This is a good PSU calculator to use if you're unsure about how much wattage you need or want. You should aim for your full-load wattage being around 75-80% of the PSU's rated capacity for efficiency reasons.

[Zaune]

...I don't know why you'd be worried about it, I jump-start PSUs all the time (mostly when using them as secondary PSUs to power extra graphics cards).

Because working on a power supply with the cover off while it's drawing current is one of the few PC repair tasks that carries a non-trivial risk of a lethal electric shock?

You don't need a 750 W PSU. That's a kind of ridiculous amount of headroom for a single GPU setup (for comparison, I run two 6970's in Xfire for my multi-monitor setup, and at full blast this system consumes 650 W or less). Corsair is a good brand, however.

That said, PSUs do lose a bit of output towards the end of their lives, and it's always a good idea to leave some scope for future upgrades. A bit of extra junk in the trunk can't hurt if you've got the money.

[starslayer]

That may be a consideration in most cases, but sometime soon, Modax's whole system is going to need replacement. And even the replacement system is going to be drawing, at the absolute most, something like 500 W. He just doesn't need a 750 W PSU. He can save money by getting a 600 W class unit.

[Starglider]

Because working on a power supply with the cover off while it's drawing current is one of the few PC repair tasks that carries a non-trivial risk of a lethal electric shock?

There's nothing on the page you mentioned about removing the PSU cover, which is unsurprising, as there are no tests you can do on the power supply PCB without knowing very specific details about that particular model of PSU. Checking PSU voltages just requires sticking multimeter probes into the output plugs, the only thing you are at risk of there is blowing a (low-voltage) fuse if you accidentally short the probes (although decent quality PSUs will simply shut down if this happens). It is almost impossible for a PSU to fail in such a way as to leave some of the output pins with mains voltage on them, yet without blowing a fuse anywhere; again unsurprising as this would be a major safety risk even with the case closed (connector pins could be hot), so manufacturers design to prevent this occuring.

A bit of extra junk in the trunk can't hurt if you've got the money.

Well, it wastes a little power and hence money due to most PSUs having higher efficiency in the upper part of their output range, but usually a trivial amount.

[Terralthra]

...I don't know why you'd be worried about it, I jump-start PSUs all the time (mostly when using them as secondary PSUs to power extra graphics cards).

Because working on a power supply with the cover off while it's drawing current is one of the few PC repair tasks that carries a non-trivial risk of a lethal electric shock?

You don't have to take the cover off to jump-start a PSU. ATX PSUs can be started by shorting pins 15 and 16 on the motherboard connecter.

[Exonerate]

Because the impending release of the 78xx cards will discount the 68xx cards to unbeatable price/performance. The equivalent Nvidia release won't be for another four to six months.

What's your basis for saying this? NVidia doesn't really have an official release schedule, there's nothing but rumors. In any case, I'd wait until CES 2012 to see if any announcement is made. The Southern Island cards probably won't be widely available until then anyways.

[Tolya]

What make is your PSU? However, crashes related to faulty CPU would rather just reboot your system rather than freeze it.

Also, remember that 8800's were know for overheating problem. Get a GPU temperature monitor and check the idle temp. Anything above ~50-60 in idle should be a cause for concern. Highest allowed temp by nvidia for those chips is 105 degrees afair.

My educated guess is that you have faulty RAM chips. Replace them (swap with a friend) or run a stress test (although it may not be conclusive).

Your rig should be able to play the games you mentioned without any problems really. I have an E5300, GeForce 9800 and 2GB ram and I can play most of the games on maxxed settings.